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Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile

130.253.4.1
Posted on March 24, 1999 at 11:52:41
Mike K


 
Did anyone read this column (dealing with new music formats, death
(or not) of CD format, prices for music, etc)?
My own reaction is - as it has been for a while - that the current
CD is not going to go away for quite a while, and that any new format
(audio DVD or DASD(?)) is going to be a fringe format for the
forseeable future, assuming it ever gets going at all.

Also thought Sam's comments about how the music biz tries to
increase prices when a new format comes along were, or should be,
a warning of what we can expect in that regard.

Personally I am staying with 16/44.1 cds as long as I can. How about
the rest of you?

 

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Re: Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile, posted on March 24, 1999 at 12:16:16
Audiophilander


 
An early adopter I'm not. However, if the best new music format is of significantly higher quality, backwards compatible and the hardware is reasonable enough I'll probably sign on.

Personally, I think you're correct about the CD being around awhile longer and any new format being a fringe format, pretty much limited to audiophile interests.

I haven't read Sam Tellig's latest column in the April Stereopile yet; come to think of it I haven't received the April Stereophile (I thought it was an April Fool's joke they were playing!) --- perhaps I should look around for that subscrtiption notification letter I seem to have misplaced. ;-)

AuPh

 

Re: Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile, posted on March 24, 1999 at 12:30:43
Steve


 
I'm with you on the current CD technology. If they sound as bad as the golden ears say they do, then I'm glad I can't hear it. I'm happy with the way they sound. Sure there are some bad sounding discs out there, but I feel this is more a result of poor mastering than the technology. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

DVD vs. CD vs. LP, posted on March 24, 1999 at 13:24:13
Dave VH


 
For "the masses" who didn't really care about sound quality as defined by audiophiles, CD's offered tremendous convenience, as well as freedom from the rice crispies (snap, crackle and pop) and other noises which plague abused LP's. Cd's were really a great step forward for these folks, and they embraced it wholeheartedly. Since the high-volume products drive the market, what is there for them in DVD that will drive such a mass migration again?

What we, as audiophiles, crave is the last 5-10% of sound quality and perceived realism in recordings, but unfortunately, we probably comprise only about 2%(??) of the global market. Don't expect the Sony's, Phillips' and Asian mass-fi audio companies to cater to us. And since they drive the market, they will reach for the biggest market shares, and ignore us for the most part.

The biggest driver in the recorded music market today is the MP3 phenomonen, and no one knows what changes it will cause. Mini-discs with MP3 tunes may be a sleeper.

Dave VH

 

what april stereopile? I though they went quarterly!, posted on March 24, 1999 at 13:28:27
dy/dx


 
I'm with you Mike K, very suspicious of new gimmicks like them CD's. Oh they're great for the car, when your mind's elsewhere, but not healthy to listen to for any period of time. Ever play one upside down?

And Steve 'ol boy, the mastering is getting worse! You're paying for 16 and getting 13, if that. Haven't you heard about the artists' boycotts? They say the CD sounds nothing like the master. I admit some are well done. But if I can get the LP, ooohhh yea! The niche CD labels are very nice though.

 

Re: what april stereopile? I though they went quarterly!, posted on March 24, 1999 at 15:05:51
nataraj


 
>You're paying for 16 and getting 13

How true. I've seen many cds with peaks around 50% (when you record on to a pc)! Hopefully when we get to 24 bits we will have all the dvd-audios giving us atleast 16 bits.

 

Re: Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile, posted on March 24, 1999 at 15:20:35
Rich


 

If DSD sounds better, I'll welcome it, but I have no interest in paying significantly MORE for DSD. The reality is, however, that we'll get what Sony and Philips want us to have whether we want it or not. The majors can simply stop producing CDs, reducing them to niche status, just as they did with the LP.

I listen to CD for convenience reasons, not sonic quality.

 

When it becomes an option for you car, look out!, posted on March 24, 1999 at 15:47:50
Rod M


 
I seen it done too many times, 8-track, cassette, CD. Of course the first 2 were just ways to play vinyl on the road. But, you'll know it's gone mainstream when it shows up in a Chevy or Ford.

My guess is it will take a while for any new format and it's likely to have to be 16/44 CD compatible. Geez, DVD is a few years old now and VCRs haven't gone away ;)

I'd welcome better quality but I find more fault with the recording quality and mixes than I do the current format per se. And I'm not going out and replace what I have or buy new gear because they say it's better.

 

you mean like when Ford offered DAT on the Lincoln?, posted on March 24, 1999 at 16:12:15
dy/dx


 
and the Crown Vic too if I remember. Can you even buy a DAT machine anymore?

 

Nay, more like the Escort., posted on March 24, 1999 at 16:19:30
Rod M


 
I didn't know they did that. But you couldn't ever really buy consumer DAT machines in the US anyway.

 

Well now, actually...., posted on March 24, 1999 at 19:08:06
jj


 
If you see peaks at only 50%, you're effectively wasting 1 bit.

I've seen worse, but much worse than that is those CD's that were compressed to about 6dB dynamic range.

Headache city.

 

Re: Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile, posted on March 24, 1999 at 20:10:56
nataraj


 
There was an interview view a sony exec I read some time back. The way sony wants to put it is that dvd-audio is just an off-shoot of dvd for the HT guys who want to do some multi-channel music. SACD is for real audiophiles ... so they are also going to bring out all the 'audiophile' music on sacd first. But the player will be expensive ... yes a fringe thing.

My only hope with sacd/dvd-audio is that to make sure people perceive it as a better medium, mastering will be good, at least initially. Time to buy one more remaster of all the fav. pieces.

 

Re: Well now, actually...., posted on March 24, 1999 at 20:20:47
nataraj


 
Yes thats right. I suppose every bit doubles the (voltage) level, quatrabling power which is 6 db. Is that right ?

Anyway, 6dB dynamic range is really bad ... but probably sounds right in a boom-box.

Sometime I wonder whether most mastering engr. (more likely label execs) don't care about music.

 

Re: what april stereopile? I though they went quarterly!, posted on March 25, 1999 at 02:57:31
Rodney gold


 
On a lot of CD's you are paying for 16 and you get 19 , those using good dithering and mastering techniques can approach 19 bits of resolution.
As to 13 bits , the normal average levels are about 24 db below 0dbfs , peaks approach 0dbfs (use a DAT to verify this) if you overshoot 0dbfs the results are horrible , now you have the choice , either have the average levels of the CD nearer to 0dbfs (and use radical compression to average out there) or the other way with bigger dynamic swings in the music.
Any studio worth its salt today will use 20/24 bit mastering and proper dither.
However sometimes the artist uses a 16 bit DAW and does significant DSP on the signal , and then sends the resulting dogs breakfast for stamping , resulting in pure and anadulterated crap.
Oh by the way , LP's are at best 11-12 bits in terms of reolution

 

part of the JBL premium sound system option, it was nice (nt), posted on March 25, 1999 at 05:52:15
dy/dx


 

 

don't tell, but I'd love to dump my LP front end...but, posted on March 25, 1999 at 06:00:07
dy/dx


 
I still haven't heard anything that satifies (i can't get no), and then there's the issue of finding sources to re-record on the "audiophile" digital medium that has been archived on LP for so long. I'm sure even if they did find the master tapes, that they haven't held-up as well as a carefully made LP. So round and round we go. As long as we enjoy the "war horses" created by the dead or past artists, we're stuck with LP as the best possible sound. And stuck with all that entails: the gear, the fussyness, and the endless debate from those who've never heard good LP playback.

 

Re: Sam Tellig's column in April $tereophile, posted on March 25, 1999 at 07:52:32
Jim Willis


 
I'm with 16 as well. No plans for anything else for now, and I still buy 10 CDs a month on average. And vinyl.

 

Not far off, posted on March 25, 1999 at 10:09:15
jj


 
There is one of the current "overcompression" fads going through all the labels at the minute, never mind what the artist or the producer wants.

The final master just gets SQUISHED.

I find it "music to have a headache by" mostly.

 

OOPS, posted on March 25, 1999 at 10:09:58
jj


 
Rather than current, I meant "periodic".

 

that does it! anyone want my LP collection?, posted on March 25, 1999 at 11:30:09
dy/dx


 
if I'm only getting 11 bits then I can't be enjoying myself as much as I feel. Why can't my feelings catch-up with this digital tech? What is wrong with me?

I take it back all the things I've said about digital. It's a brave new world. Beauty is Truth! Truth is 1 (or 0, I forget).

 

Re: don't tell, but I'd love to dump my LP front end...but, posted on March 25, 1999 at 14:59:00
nataraj


 
>> we're stuck with LP as the best possible sound

I think its a personal call. No new medium is going to reproduce exactly like LP (unless specifically done that way ... ). So people who like vinyl and are used to it are stuck with LP.

For others, who can enjoy digital medium, there is hope.

 

did you miss my point?, posted on March 25, 1999 at 16:20:29
dy/dx


 
What I think I was trying to say is that the old tapes of great performances are never going to be "redeemed", even by a perfect digital transfer, to the sound quality they had when the vinyl was pressed.

Magnetic tape is not a very good archival medium, and that's the best future digital transfer can do. I don't want to get into the digital debate, check out your old VHS tapes. They just arn't gonna last. It's very sad.

 

Re: did you miss my point?, posted on March 25, 1999 at 16:55:25
nataraj


 
Yes thats right. The tapes do go bad rather fast (archival-wise). They may have to take from master LP (I suppose they have some kind of master pressings) and transfer from there, which should give good results.

And many of them can never be redeemed. Infact some time back in India EMI had a fire which destroyed precious master tapes etc. Too bad. Now-a-days old private recordings are being remastered and issued. Some of them surprisingly have good recordings.

Anyway, since all of the old records won't be remastered I'm even getting into vinyl.

 

Re: did you miss my point?, posted on March 26, 1999 at 01:56:44
Werner


 

The situation is probably not so bad after all. Remember
that the LPs you lsiten to have been made not from
the real master, but from an Nth generation copy of
it (or even a PCM-1630 digital distribution copy!!!).

Record companies should hunt down masters of
sufficient low generation number (i.e. the 1 and
its several 2 copies) and assemble from these
a new transfer master.

Moreover, these masters can be played on optimised
analogue tape machines which were surely
not available at the pressing plants of the past!!!

 

Re: that does it! anyone want my LP collection?, posted on March 26, 1999 at 05:38:56
Estes


 
Vinyl Records?!? Did you say that you want to sell your records?? ;-))

 

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