Anyone know how hybrid amps work?

Re: Anyone know how hybrid amps work?, posted on March 16, 1999 at 09:11:06
Jack g	Simply put, the input stage is tubed, where they only have to supply voltage, and the output stage is ss, hence ruining the sound. Jack

what's your impression of CE's precious AVA?, posted on March 16, 1999 at 09:45:14
Mart	Who uses SS input buffer & then a power stage w/ a op tube amp output.

The signal is still going thru SS devices., posted on March 16, 1999 at 10:00:28
Jack G	Hell, I don't even like SS retification. Jack

Music Reference - The RM200 does, posted on March 16, 1999 at 11:20:50

bryan

SS input, tubes output. Check out the link below. I almost bought one myself but ended up getting a new hybrid from Joule Electra.

Music Reference RM100

Re: Anyone know how hybrid amps work?, posted on March 16, 1999 at 12:24:56
Bill L.	Jack - I know you meant that the tubes are there as an improvement over strictly solid state sound while still retaining the power and drive necessary for so many good speakers to come to life. Fair enough?

Fear And Loathing, Transistorville, posted on March 16, 1999 at 13:49:28

Dave B

Bill,

Jack has never met a solid state transistor he has ever liked. This causes major problems for him, he loathes all those little s.s. devices ruining the sound in his CeeDee players and won't be happy until he gets a fully tubed CeeDee player. and I mean FULLY tubed, not just the output stage. Of course he has a handle on the amp and preamp situation(tube pre and SETA) but is in Fear and Loathing of the digital front end manufacturers. They just haven't got it right, yet! ;-)

Dave B

Is the hybrid you bought, the VAMP?, posted on March 16, 1999 at 16:12:09
Q_bert	If not, do you have any info on the VAMP? I saw an ad in the most recent TAS, and it looked very plain, so I am guessing that it is not as expensive as some of their other offerings.

Re: Is the hybrid you bought, the VAMP?, posted on March 16, 1999 at 16:43:18

bryan

I ordered the VAMP stereo amp, not the integrated. I don't have it yet but should later this week. Check out JE's website for information on it. Jud will also send you some other technical information on it including jpg's of scope shots etc if you want. Its really new but I've heard that its killer and I decided to bring it in on a no risk trial. I believe it lists for $2800 or so and the integrated is in the high 3K range. Yes, it looks plain compared to the VZN's but I can live with that. Its more important to me that it sounds great. The other amp I was considering besides the RM200 is the Atma-Sphere M60s and they don't look so hot either, IMHO. The only cool looking hybrids that I know of are the Blue Circles monos which are real lookers. Anyway, don't discount the RM200 if you are looking for a powerful hybrid tube amp. I would have brought that in to but I haven't been able to get a trial as of yet.

AVA, posted on March 16, 1999 at 21:28:45

Mart

I talked to Frank on the phone (I truly hope I didn't frustrate him too much because most of my background is as an ME) & he uses SS to deliver the power for reliability & to buffer back EMF. He only uses single endded triodes to convert the voltage-source into a low-colored current-source. In this way, the output Z transmitted through the low-Z of the tube & becomes for all intent & purposes the high value of the SS. In this way the tube stays cool for longevity. I only wonder (since tubes have a large input impedence) why Frank didn't use tubes on the input stage?

Audio frank Van Alstine's amp

Comment,question,and another comment, posted on March 16, 1999 at 22:26:44

Slappy

I guess Jack never wants to hear the real source material either.
I can't say that I don't like tube equipment, but I also wouldn't
say ss ruins the sound. It could be strongly argued that tubes can
never compete with good ss for reproducing the source exactly. If the truest reproduction through ss is a "ruined sound", then what sound is it through tubes ? Again, I am not anti-tube, but Jacks condescension for the purpose of dismissing ss as inadequate means nothing except that he prefers a sound that is not as faithful as intended.
S.

I personally adore SS slew-rates, but ..., posted on March 16, 1999 at 23:22:42
Mart	... that means you will transmit every iota of detail from your CDP. Thereby, demonstrating to everyone in ear-shot just how bad the your DAC is... well, @ least with my tweeters.

Re: Anyone know how hybrid amps work?, posted on March 17, 1999 at 02:09:53
abc	Audio Research made a hybrid with solid state inputs and then used tubes for outputs that ruined the sound.

personally, I adore Atma-Sphere slew-rates..., posted on March 17, 1999 at 04:05:27

Dave B

at 600V/microsecond but there are good and bad tube designs and there are good and bad s.s. designs, regarding musicality.

The funny thing is, if the designs are done right, it won't matter if there are cathodes, grids and getters or sources, drains, gates, emitters, collectors..... they should sound the same.

Not quite, posted on March 17, 1999 at 04:21:25
Jack G	I did hear the Kharma SS amp. Lovely sounding amp. One of the few SS amp i could probably live with. There are a few nice sounding SS amps, but they tend to be rare, and not cheap. Jack

Re: Comment,question,and another comment, posted on March 17, 1999 at 04:25:29
Jack G	I have an old Denon amp, and an old Sansui reciever. Both have great specs, and by your definition will reproduce the souce exactly(tho how you know what's on the disc is another story), I'll be more than happy to sell them to you.:-) Jack PS.I don't hear grain and glare in live music.

I'd love to hear > 100V/usec tube (nt), posted on March 17, 1999 at 05:01:11
Mart

Re: Not quite, posted on March 17, 1999 at 06:32:49

Dave B

Glad to hear that from you, Jack. Actually, the good sounding, musical pieces always have a strong correlation to price. That's not to say that every expensive piece sounds musical to me though. Just that, when the designer does hit the jackpot, it's usually a costly design to manufacture. As I said below, when it's truly "right", it shouldn't matter whether its has cathodes, plates, emitters, drains or whatever.

This is always a fun topic to explore.

Re: I'd love to hear > 100V/usec tube (nt), posted on March 17, 1999 at 06:35:17

Dave B

if you're interested, go to

Atma-Sphere

Jack, now i know how you really feel........, posted on March 17, 1999 at 08:02:57

Sean

While i have heard others say that the Aragon's have a rising high end response, i have never heard anyone say that they sound gritty or grainy. Your comments here basically explain your previous statements. I was aware of the fact that you did PREFER tubes, but not to the extent that i know now. You might have added some clarity by stating something to the effect of "compared to tubes, the XXX SS amp sounds..." . Others, like me, may not get a chance to read every post made here and may not have been aware of your "bias" towards disliking 98% of all SS components. I do appreciate your comment though, as it caused me to do more digging and find that it probably wouldn't be what i wanted after all. Sean
>

Not even close, posted on March 17, 1999 at 08:20:32

Jack G

The aragon is bright grainy and painfull compared to other ss amps too. Sure, its better than a yamaha reciever, but thats about it. Thats why they *improved* it with the MK2.Here's a small list off the top of my head of ss amps that are less bright and grainyand painfull as the Aragon:
Threshold, Forte, Pass, Ayre, Levinson, Krell, Kharma, Goldmund,ARC ss stuff, Clayton, etc.
FWIW, some tubed gear is also bright and grainy.
You asked my opinion, and I gave it. Everytime I heard the Aragon, it was so painfull I had to leave the room,this was in different systems too. I apologise if my standards are too high for you.You should have specified that you were not very picky.
Jack

OOPS sorry about the double post (nt), posted on March 17, 1999 at 08:24:25
Jack G	Ã’Â¿Ã’

what's your impression of the Marantz PM17?, posted on March 17, 1999 at 09:19:38
Mart	I found it to exhibit tube type behavior in the HF but tight bass in the LF. The only thing I thought you'd despise is the SS type nature of rattling the diaphrams. The only harsh electronic error I perceived in the non-direct circuit path. It also flooded the room w/ its sound field.

Not familiar.(nt), posted on March 17, 1999 at 09:32:18
Jack G	Ã’Â¿Ã’

I agree!, posted on March 17, 1999 at 17:06:35

Q_bert

I could care less about cosmetics as well. Another unit that is receiving tremendous accolades--the Plinius 8150--looks very generic as well. Have you gotten a chance to hear one?

That RM200 is one sweet looking amp though, with that wood platform and those chrome-finished transformer covers! Another tube integrated that looks sweet is the Manley Stingray.

Alright Jack !, common ground.(sort of), posted on March 17, 1999 at 18:34:30
Slappy	I obviously made my post above a bit inflammatory to return the ss dig. I did qualify my example with "good" ss equipment, so even though I appreciate your offer, you may keep your Sansui and Denon equip. BTW, I am using a Forte amp. Even though it was probably the least pricey on your "not totally horrible" list, I am proud to have made it. Later, S.

Re: I agree!, posted on March 17, 1999 at 19:16:35

bryan

Manley Stingray! Yesssss. What a statement product.

My dealer friend who has my frontend, speakers, cables, room treatment etc etc is letting me know about amps the work well with the rig. He has the Arnonov 960i, Atma M60s and the Plinius 100 so far and while they are all different sounding he likes the M60's best. If only I could convince him to bring in the RM200 and do a head to head with it vrs. the M60s. I have not heard the Plinius because its not available around here. I have to bring in all my gear as an import. This usually means doing a bunch of research and yacking with people, building a short list and then bringing something in. This is how I came to select the VAMP. Next on the list would be the M60s because I know they work with my speakers. Thats assuming I'm not happy with the VAMP which I doubt will happen. Hopefully....

I think you took that the wrong way, posted on March 17, 1999 at 22:58:13

Sean

Or i read too much into what the other guy was saying about your personal preferences regarding tube vs. SS. I did want opinions of what people thought of that amp. I am not familiar with any of their gear and if several people would have commented favorably about it, i would have known to pursue it further. Your comment was rather strong and made me dig up several other reviews pertaining to the Aragon amplifier line. While most of them were from people that had bought the gear and were happy with it, making their comments valid yet biased, none commented on harshness or grain. Several did state that it did have a bright high end though.

I'm sorry if you took my response as a criticism to you. It wasn't meant to be. My point is that, unless you know where someone is coming from or what their references are, it is quite easy to mis-interpret their comments.

Since another gentleman had already suggested Forte', i had found an older model 3 that may suit what i'm looking for. Your comments further reinforce that it MAY be a very worthwhile venture to do more research on this unit. I had asked the person that owns this unit how he would describe it's sonic attributes. He told me that, compared to a B & K amp that he also owns, it would be more revealing and detailed while the B & K would be smoother and have a sweeter high end. I am familiar with neither of the specific models that he stated, so i'll have to take his word on it. After all, he does own both of them and has done side by side comparisons.

Once again, I'm sorry if you took offense. It seemed that after I had read some of the other comments about your "intense dislike" of any SS gear, that your previous comments were pretty biased. This was obviously not true, as you have shown that several manufacturers of SS gear can and do make products that please you. Either way, i thank you. I won't bother wasting my time on the Aragon. My standards may not be as "refined" or "picky" as yours, but i don't want something that will aggravate an already forward or bright sounding speaker system. I'm trying to work my way out of the mass produced garbage and someday hope to attain the level of performance that your accustomed to. Sean
>

Dig up Fi's review of the 8008 (nt), posted on March 18, 1999 at 04:24:50
Jack G	Ã’Â¿Ã’

For Sean, posted on March 18, 1999 at 13:11:41
Slappy	How much is he asking for the Forte 3 ? They were made circa 1994/96. If you can pick it up for decent $, it is an excellent amp. It was widely considered at the top of its class, and a bargain when it was new.($1850)

Re: For Sean, posted on March 18, 1999 at 13:31:41

Slappy

I just read down further to your proir post about the Forte equip.
The model 3 is a class a/b amp at 200wpc 8ohms/400 4ohms.I'm not sure, but I believe it was made at the same time as the model 4.(class a 50wpc 8ohms/00 4ohms) They both cost about the same $ new.
I remember Doug Schneider at Sound Stage made a reference to previously owning a Model 3 when he reviewed the Belles 150 power amp.Look in the review archives at S.S. Maybe he could provide more info if you e-mail him. Let me know if you do.
S.

Re: For Sean, posted on March 19, 1999 at 04:34:08
Jack G	I've heard both(albeit a while ago). The model 4 is MUCH better. Jack

Thanks guys !!!, posted on March 19, 1999 at 09:15:18

Sean

Thanks for the info Slappy. I'll check into it. Jack's comments seem to agree with what most everyone else that i have corresponded with thinks. While i wouldn't doubt that a smaller amp that is pure Class A sounds better than a larger amp that is Class AB, I just couldn't get by with 50 @ 8 / 100 @ 4. I do like to "raise the roof" quite often and clipping would be a problem. Unfortunately, I can't afford a BIG Class A amp right now. I am looking at the Forte' 3 or a B & K Pro 600 to handle the mids unless something else comes up. The party involved wants $650 for either unit, but I think that the price on the B & K is more negotiable than the Forte'. I have been told that the B & K has irreplaceable parts, so when i get off the puter, I'll be calling Jerry at B & K to find out the scoop. Sean
>

Re: Thanks guys !!!, posted on March 19, 1999 at 13:32:36
Slappy	$650 is a fair price for the 3, if it's in very good condition. Good luck.

looks great, but not that wealthy(nt), posted on March 21, 1999 at 22:45:53
Mart

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Anyone know how hybrid amps work?

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