Well, do they ever help? - jj 19:24:22 3/10/99 (1)
 Re: Well, do they ever help? - MikeP 06:52:19 3/11/99 (0)
 Re: tone controls - Jon Risch 16:02:48 3/10/99 (0)

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 Well, do they ever help? - jj 19:24:22 3/10/99 (1)
 Re: Well, do they ever help? - MikeP 06:52:19 3/11/99 (0)
 Re: tone controls - Jon Risch 16:02:48 3/10/99 (0)
 Re: tone controls - Thorsten 13:15:13 3/10/99 (9)
 Welcome Thorston, and thanks for some new angles. - Dave VH 13:47:59 3/10/99 (8)
 Re: Welcome Thorston, and thanks for some new angles. - Thorsten 05:14:11 3/11/99 (6)
 Rod M. or Stephen - can we put links to the WASP... - Dave VH 08:18:52 3/11/99 (5)
 Done (nt) - Rod M 09:50:46 3/11/99 (1)
 xclnt ... thanks! (nt) - Stephen 10:04:23 3/11/99 (0)
 Good idea ... - Stephen 08:49:53 3/11/99 (0)
 Re: Rod M. or Stephen - can we put links to the WASP... - Rod M 08:44:16 3/11/99 (1)
 Read your mail. Or look in my post. (nt) - Stephen 09:34:37 3/11/99 (0)
 Thorsten's been here awhile - ken m 16:32:03 3/10/99 (0)
 Re: tone controls - mtrycrafts 09:37:05 3/10/99 (3)
 mtry: - Stephen 16:35:11 3/11/99 (0)
 That's a simple-minded, false answer based on not thinking. - Dave VH 11:29:41 3/10/99 (1)
 Very well said, and then some ... - Stephen 11:52:55 3/10/99 (0)
 Re: tone controls - Rodney Gold 01:48:41 3/10/99 (2)
 Re: tone controls - Stephen 08:18:07 3/10/99 (1)
 maybe... - gnat 01:29:37 3/11/99 (0)

Most problems are room related and affect specific freqs , some , like bass can be cured with precision eq (like a parametric type tone control where the frequency , level and slope of the freq modifier is user configurable)
others like problems arising due to reflections etc cannot be cured at all.

Changing tubes , amps and cables is not primarily a tone thing , for example one transport I have has a flat and lifeless sound , no note decay etc , there is no way , with ANY type of Eq that one can inject the superb decay and note tail off and bass pitch definition my other transport has.
Same with tubes , one cant equalise SS to magically turn to SET.

Fiddling with equip is a synergy thing , matching a unit to another , Freq eq cant achieve this either.

Is this why you recently purchased a valved headphone amp?
Seeing the error of your past buying decisions?

;-)

Mtrycrafts is a self-admitted techie who visits us not because he loves music, which he won't discuss, but because he is obsessed with ABX and other double-blind testing, and seems to have a great fear of trusting his own senses. He admits that he cannot tell the differences between difference performances of symphonies by different orchestras and conductors - something that intelligent 7-year-olds who have been exposed to orchestral music can do.

This forum was founded by audiophiles and audio enthusiasts who enjoy music, as well as enjoying the hobby of putting together audio systems to create exceptional musical experiences. Look at the Music Asylum - you won't ever see a personal evaluation or intelligent discussion of music by Mtry, just putdowns on the other forums of those who enjoy using their ears to listen to music and evaluate audio gear.

Mtry apparently doesn't trust his own senses, or like our enjoyment of trusting our senses, especially hearing. Most of us recognize the psycho-acoustic pitfalls of listening for ourselves, but enjoy the process, and believe that it is the only reasonable way to put assemble and modify audio systems.

No good audio electronics designer would dream of marketing a product without evaluating by ear what the computers and engineering knowledge knowledge helped them create. Exceptions exist, of course, in companies like Bose, who make high-hype marketing to unsophisticated listeners their priority. They even market to scientists and science enthusiasts via full-page ads in Science News!! If this sector can be so easily seduced by marketing hype based on pseudo-science, real science has a long way to go.

Yes, there are sonic differences in amps, pre-amps, transports and DACS. And yes, these differences in components in great sounding systems can often be measured as "poor specs" compared to some horrible-sounding gear with good specs. Remember that the most who visit the Asylum generally are those who want to create or re-create musical experiences. For some, this may be related to accurately reproducing what some audio engineers have put on a disk, or it may be modifying the sound by matching components and tuning a room to achieve a sonic character that you like the best.

Every sensible person who is a regular on this forum will advise you to ask questions, and listen for yourself. If you cannot hear the difference, don't buy the product. Even 30-day in home trials aren't enough for Mrty. He is apparently afraid that he might be fooled into hearing differences that don't really exist.

I did not write this to put Mtry down, but rather to reinforce the philosophy of the founders of this forum.

Enjoy the Music,

Dave VH

Here's an excerpt from a rather interesting
article, which sums it all up nicely.

Tomi Engdahl's Audio and Hifi page
SIGNIFICANCE OF MUSICAL HARMONICS

Having divided amplifiers into three groups of distortion characteristics, the next step is to determine how the harmonics relate to hearing. There is a close parallel here between electronic distortion and musical tone coloration that is the real key to why tubes and transistors sound different.

The primary color characteristic of an instrument is determined by the strength of the first few harmonics. Each of the lower harmonics produces its own characteristic effect when it is dominant or it can modify the effect of another dominant harmonic if it is prominent. In the simplest classification, the lower harmonics are divided into two tonal groups.
The odd harmonics (third and fifth) produce a "stopped" or "covered" sound. The even harmonics (second, fourth, and sixth) produce "choral" or "singing" sounds.

The second and third harmonics are the most important from the viewpoint of the electronic distortion graphs in the previous section. Musically the second is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller.

The third is termed a quint or musical twelfth. It produces a sound many musicians refer to as "blanketed." Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong third actually makes the tone softer. Adding a fifth to a strong third gives the sound a metallic quality that gets annoying in character as its amplitude increases. A strong second with a strong third tends to open the "covered" effect. Adding the fourth and the fifth to this chances the sound to an "open horn" -like character.

[I heard this open horn AND covered effect quite clearly in an amp I was recently reviewing. It was an odd experience and very difficult to understand, ESPECIALLY WHEN COMBINED with the next observation: a distinct over-emphasis of transient attacks (which is discussed below)]

The higher harmonics. above the seventh, give the tone "edge" or "bite". Provided the edge is balanced to the basic musical tone, it tends to reinforce the fundamental, giving the sound a sharp attack quality. Many of the edge harmonics are musically unrelated pitches such as the seventh, ninth, and eleventh. Therefore, too much edge can produce a raspy dissonant quality. Since the ear seems very sensitive to the edge harmonics, controlling their amplitude is of paramount importance. The previously mentioned study of the trumpet tone [6] shows that the edge effect is directly related to the loudness of the tone.

Playing the same trumpet note loud or soft makes little difference in the amplitude of the fundamental and the lower harmonics. However, harmonics above the sixth increase and decrease in amplitude in almost direct proportion to the loudness. This edge balance is a critically important loudness signal for the human ear.

RELATIONSHIP OF FACTORS AND FINDINGS
The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion components in the amplifier's overload region. Transistor amplifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion when driven into overload. This harmonic produces a "covered" sound, giving the recording a restricted quality. Alternatively a tube amplifier when over loaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Particularly strong are the second, third. fourth. and fifth overtones which give a full-bodied "brassy" quality to the sound. The further any amplifier is driven into saturation, the greater the amplitude of the higher harmonics like the seventh, eighth, ninth, etc. These add edge to the sound which the ear translates to loudness information. Overloading an operational amplifier produces such steeply rising edge harmonics that they become objectionable within a 5-dB range. Transistors extend this overload range to about 10 dB and tubes widen it 20 dB or more. Using this basic analysis, the psychoacoustic characteristics stated in the beginning of this paper can be related to the electrical harmonic properties of each type of amplifier.

Here is lowdown.

I love Tonecontrols. They are great.

That is well made and designed tonecontrols that are build to a standard of fidelity that will not wreak complete havoc with the music.

Much of music is recorded badly and often over/underequalised (I used to do it myself - both the recording and the screwing up the sound with the EQ bit).

So having a well designed Equaliser or a Tonecontrol handy to fix this is quite a good Idea.

BUT these poor excuses for musically correct Tonecontrols found todays Audio-Electronics are USELESS. That goes as much for the Bass/Treble controls as it does for tehse gizmo digital EQ's....

A few options exist. I know of only one I would accept in my own System - Mark Levinsons (Mark THE MAN) Cello Palette. Even then I'd be griping about all these transistors.

Essesntially the Palette is a 6-Band EQ with Rotary switches as controls (64 position or so), with Bandwidth for the controls and the amount of Boost/Attenuation carfully tuned to allow good results to be achieved....

I have for the last year or so been looking at a version using a Zero-NFB Valve Circuitry and LC Filters. I think I have something now that might work....

I'm waiting only for any of the usual Surplus Places to get in about 10 or more > 32 Position rotary switches at a price that allows me to afford them....

Until the time I can build myself a set of tonecontrols that actually WORK and allow me to fix recording problems without loosing transparency and live in the music - my system runs without tonecontrols....

SO THERE!

Now if you are actually one of these sad persons having succumbed to to the incessant Propagand of the Conzumerdroids telling you to replace your record collection with CD (I probably have a few of the records you disposed off), you could buy one of these recent newlyfangled Digital Equaliser/Preamp Gizmos....

Something like the Z-Systems thingimabob....

I wait till they make these for 24/96 and with a decent, programmable and intuitive Interface (as likely as Microsoft shipping a Bugfree Version of Windoze) and most of my record collection is available on "Nice Price" 96/24 DVD Audio Disks (as likely as Hell freezing over)....

Later Thorsten

(the "Latter Day Luddite")

I tried a well-made Parasound 5-band equalizer to solve bass problems, but was not happy with the results. The sound just was not right - not involving. I ended up upgrading my speakers from Mission 750LE's to a pair of Apogee Centaurus Monitors. Even though both my old and new speakers were rear-ported designs, the Apogees do not have the same bass humps in my room in the same positions. Strange!

I ended up first complicating my system, then simplifying it, and I am now very happy with the musical performance of my speakers. I would rather play with room tuning and speaker positioning than add more stuff in the signal path.

Enjoy the music.

Dave VH

Most cable and tube effects are very subtle by comparison. The cable tonal balances are not a direct result of amplitude deviations in most cases, they are a result of perceptions due to cable signal alterations or distortions. A "bright" cable may actually add HF distortion, while a warm cable might suppress HF distortion, along with some of the transients and details. These are akin to amplitude deviations of a few tenths of a dB in terms of amount, even though they ARE NOT amplitude deviations as such.

When I designed a tone control stage for some electronics years ago, I limited the boost and cut to +/- 10 dB, and placed the turnover points at reasonable areas, so that the midrange was not affected. As a result, they were much more useful and capable of being brought into play for just a smidgen of adjustment, and the range of the pot was not spastic due to the reduced range of boost/cut.

I included a bypass switch, which removed the tone components from the signal path, and left the stage as a gain of 20 dB pure gain stage, which provided the gain for the whole preamp (minimalist design), so there was little penalty to pay for having them in circuit, or not.

Jon Risch

-ken

Most tone controls I've met have a very lame "zero" position that isn't that close to zero. Some can be punched out. Some have a zero detent, some of those detents are even close to zero. Some aren't.

Some you can punch out, yes, but then again, the last one of those I measured (yes, MEASURED) had so much (unbelievably gross and offensive expletive deleted) zero-crossing distortion in the preamp that it's hard to be polite about it. (I put this thing on, listening for about 2 minutes, let it warm up for an hour, listened for another 30 seconds to Rudolph Serkin, and got out the meters. Faugh!) Basically, at 1 volt output I could see artifacts 70dB down. AT 10 mV I saw them about 40dB down, which is a bit interesting, but so it goes. I gave it away (weren't expensive).

So, in modern equipment, well, most of it that's good enough at low levels, quiet enough, etc, simply seems not to have tone controls. In particular I had to search far and wide for a decent phono preamp, and when I found it it was without tone controls.

I never used them when I had them, anyhow. Any EQ I need to do isn't going to be with a single-slope fixed breakpoint control, sorry to say.

On the other hand, some people argue that they create audible problems even when switched out, etc. I personally don't buy that, I just use equipment that performs the way I want it to, and it doesn't have controls.

regards, gnat

> But you may find arguments with some poeple about the Z-Systems Digital Preamp as a viable way to tame some room and system problems. It has some fans here.

No argument from me. I like the Idea very much. I feel the User-Interface is not very intuitive to do some "on the spot" re-equalisation of a recording (very important). I also feel that in my mostly Vinyl & Valves System the Z-Sytems Gizmo would not sit that easily. Then there is the minor question of the cost....

> a well-made Parasound 5-band equalizer

Now here is a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.... ;-)

> I ended up upgrading my speakers from Mission 750LE's to a pair of Apogee Centaurus Monitors. Even though both my old and new speakers were rear-ported designs, the Apogees do not have the same bass humps in my room in the same positions. Strange!

Room positioning is a veritable Minefield. I found that the "WASP" (Wilson Audio Setup Procedure) serves surprisingly well to allow a wide range of ConeDome (that is what gets between you and the feeling in the music) to be aligned to a wide range of rooms quicly and easily. It does look very snakeoily to outsider though....

You should have seen the look on my Bosses face when I "sounded out" his living room to position his speakers optimally.... It was only after he heard the result from step ONE of the WASP that he no longer questioned my sanity.....

I have described the WASP in quite soem detail in "Tp's and Tweakings" Pages of TNT-Audio. Since then Wilson Audio has also put a Version on their Web-Site. Highly recommended reading (both of them).

> I ended up first complicating my system, then simplifying it, and I am now very happy with the musical performance of my speakers. I would rather play with room tuning and speaker positioning than add more stuff in the signal path.

I agree there. As said, unless I'm convinced that the Tonecontrol/EQ will be almost transparent and that the Bypass position will be transparent (use mercury wetted reed relais for this) I also woul not add suc a Unit to my system.

I intend to integrate the Cello Palette style tonecontrol (my Version uses ONE Single 417A Valve per Channel and LC Filters) into the Preamplifier (which is DIY anyway), but I realise that this will not be an option for everybody....

Anyway, here a link to the Cello EQ.... As for the Price, if you have to ask.....

http://www.cello-us.com/cellodocs/products/peripherals/audiopallate.html

Later Thorsten

Dave VH

I'll also suggest we add:

http://www.cardas.com/insights/roomsetup.html
http://www.halesdesigngroup.com/quickstart.html

As moderator of this section of the board,
I put you on notice that complaints have
been registered against some of your posts.

I believe the objections are based on a lack
of substance (your overly simplistic one-liners),
and the flame-like and baiting tone of many of
your posts.

I have excised a lower portion of the thread,
and will do so again on future posts of a like
nature if you continue down this path.

People are tired of the constant pro-ABX, anti-
subjectivism, and of responses to same (I have
been guilty, myself), and consider the endless
cycles of posts and "did not" - "did too" posts
to be utterly worthless. I agree whole-heartedly.

If you are not interested in contributing more
than one-liners and flame-bait to the discussion,
there are plaenty other forums of which you are
well aware; I suggest you visit them, instead.

Stephen