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Tube vs SS debate

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Posted on March 9, 1999 at 08:33:38
Rafe


 
It is usually interesting and entertaining to read threads rehashing the eternal cable debate, or vinyl vs CD. But, there doesn't seem to be much arguing tubes vs SS. I know there was a long thread over on AR, but it wasn't very enlightening, just a survey. So, why do tubes sound better to me? I've read in several books (e.g. Hartley's Guide to Hi-end Audio) that there should be no difference between properly designed and executed tube and SS electronics. Does this mean that no one has designed or built SS properly?

 

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Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 9, 1999 at 08:49:20
Stephen


 
Strengths and weaknesses of design abound.
There is beginning to be some convergence.
The big (and dreadfully expensive) Spectral
and Denon amps are closing in. But for half
the price, you could have LAMM chops, instead.

Even so, those units, too, are out of the range
of my wallet.

For me, in the world of real-world affordability,
and the presentation of music as I hear it in
real-life, the balance of odd order and even order
harmonics is generally preserved more faithfully
by tube amplifiers. Even though the absolute levels
of distortion are higher, the reproduction of tube
amps is more in consonance with the harmonic
structure of music.

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 9, 1999 at 09:08:01
Keith


 
Well... sure, from an electrical point of view, a properly designed amplifier, be that a transistor or vacuum tube, would be textbook linear, perfect rise times and responses, no noise, etc. Maybe that was what Mr.Harley meant.

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 9, 1999 at 13:42:00
mtrycrafts


 
Which Lamm would that be? ML2? 18watts, with 3% distortion?
And only costs $14+k for mono?

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 9, 1999 at 13:43:52
mtrycrafts


 
>>> Does this mean that no one has designed or built SS properly? <<< Very funny:-) But it is the other way around, for your information. The tubes will never catch up. But it is a preference sound for some, not an accurate sound.

 

Shouldn't this "broken record" be in the Vinyl Asylum??, posted on March 9, 1999 at 14:00:06
Dave VH


 
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Dave VH

 

Duh - he's talking about Lamm SS, Mtry., posted on March 9, 1999 at 14:08:00
Dave VH


 
After you read, you should then think, and finally compose a reply when you understand what the converstaion is about.

Interesting that you come to a forum that is founded on preferences and offer snide, sarcastic commments based on your beliefs of un-provable, so-called objective audio. And you don't fully understand what the conversation is about!

Welcome to a world where people trust their judgement, ears and sanity, and are not ashamed of it.

Dave VH

 

uhhh...mtry?, posted on March 9, 1999 at 16:26:42
Edb


 
I respect your opinion on the matter, but how is that any different than "tubes is good and ss is bad" - something you would pounce on!

If you wan't to say that ss is more acurate then how about you provide a little more information about it? I don't deny the differences in the measurments, but I would be curious to see some of your numbers... and if tubes make music sound more real to someone, then isn't that more realistic in itself, even if the 'realism' is 'unfounded' by numbers?

Just playing devils advocate in order to get real conversations going instead of fights.

regards,

Edb

 

Flames! Peace!, posted on March 9, 1999 at 16:28:00
Scott Woebcke


 

Okay this place was created to avoid flames right? Well here they are. If anything I'd love to see debate! Endless piles of scientific journals and personal observations, with of course friendly content. I know its only a dream. Heck I honestly think ABX testing is a good thing after I auditioned some cd players, most sounded the same maybe a few slight differences... its all questionable. What I'd really like to see is people come together. For instance MtryCrafts listening to a high powered SET saying "whoa Goddamnit I'm gonna retire my Yahmaha garb for this!" Or a die hard audiophile say "Goddamnit MtryCrafts, you make me feel like a shmuck for spending 500$ on cable when your 12 guage rat shack stuff sounds the same." Bottom line is with an open mind nobody has to listen to mono forever. Keep the stereo playing and open mind to all ends of the spectrum.

 

Re: Flames! Peace!, posted on March 9, 1999 at 16:59:08
nataraj


 
>I know its only a dream

How true !

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 9, 1999 at 17:15:44
MikeP


 

I've finally concluded that there is no hard and fast rules. After 4 tube preamps The pres I like best are a Bryston B60 (used as a preamp) and a Creek OBH12 passive (for now) . With tube/ss amps I liked the Llano A200 and Odyssey Stratos better than an antique Fisher integrated and Audio Electronic SE811 SET monos, but liked the 35 year old Scott 299c and 208 (7591 tube amps) and c-j MV75 (15 year old tube amp) and Marantz 8B reissue (35 year old design) better than the ss. Why? Because to me the tube amps generally sound more like my reference: unamplified acoustic insrtuments up close and personal. What to make of all this?

Rules of thumb aren't absolute.

We aren't measuring the right things (at least not all of them)

We really haven't progressed all that far in 35 years. Or the guys 35 years ago new things that have since been lost cataclysmic events or drugs or something.

ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE! Hahahahahahahahahhahaha.......



 

What's the Problem?, posted on March 9, 1999 at 18:25:04
jj


 
Especially near their power limits, hollow-state and solid-state amps have entirely different kinds and spectra of distortions. What's more, most hollow-state amps have output transformers, that have a very characteristic distortion of their own, and some interesting intermod products. (Not all, mind you, but those who make amps seem to mostly settle on those that do. Perhaps there is a reason?)

Given the differences in distortion mechanisms,
***************
Why is it so surprising that some like each?
***************

 

Re: What's the Problem?, posted on March 9, 1999 at 20:52:42
Rafe


 
I've read about the differences in distortion and odd vs even harmonics. Everyone seems to point to what happens as tubes approach their limits and begin distorting. Does this mean that if a SS amp and tube amp are not being driven to their limits that they will sound the same? I don't think so. What accounts for the sonic differences between tubes made by different manufacturers? They supposedly have the same specs.

 

Pardon me, but, posted on March 10, 1999 at 09:19:02
Werner


 
tubed linestages are perfectly accurate. There is
no reason for them not to be so.

W

 

Re: uhhh...mtry?, posted on March 10, 1999 at 09:47:01
mtrycrafts


 
Legitimate question. All you have to do is see how the numbers look on the spec sheets. If distortion starts to climb well before the clipping point and approaches audibility, how can that be accurate? One can prefer such euphonics as that is never an issue. Another is their output impedance interacting with speakers causing or can cause gross frequency response deviations from flat. Again, some may prefer this but that is not accurate, is it? And power. Some may have sufficient power but a lot have 8, 18, or in that range. Only good on very efficient speakers or low levels.
I would not jump on ones preference for tubes, only claims of testable ones.

 

Re: What's the Problem?, posted on March 10, 1999 at 09:52:19
mtrycrafts


 
Perhaps ythe output impedance on a tube modifies the overall frequency response of the speakers more so than the SS and that is what you may be hearing and like. However, an output resistor, inductor on an SS can come very close to doing the same. But then if you'd do a double blind test, perhaps your conclusion may change.

 

Re: What's the Problem?, posted on March 10, 1999 at 13:58:38
jj


 
Well, as mentioned above, solid state amps don't have output transformers.

That's enough by itself.

As to 'specs', well, the usual "specs" provided by equipment manufacturers are about as informative as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy's entry on earth, before it was modified.


 

Don't forget McIntosh - Some SS amps with transformers (nt), posted on March 10, 1999 at 14:03:44
Dave VH


 
.

 

True, and for what reason?, posted on March 10, 1999 at 14:35:56
jj


 
I won't speculate myself, but it could make an amplifier sound more like a tube amp, now...
Not that this is wrong itself. (or right)

 

I think they wanted an "even power spectrum", posted on March 10, 1999 at 14:43:15
Dave VH


 
so that power would be the same across a wide impedance range in a given speaker. But it never seemed to help them gain acceptance among audiphiles. And they did sound less bright and harsh in the early days of SS compared to early-design direct-coupled SS amps.

Just an interesting artifact in the history of audio!

Cheers,

Dave VH

 

Re: Don't forget McIntosh - Some SS amps with transformers (nt), posted on March 10, 1999 at 17:19:12
Rafe


 
Both of my brothers-in-law have McIntosh electronics. One is driving a pair of Sonus Faber GPs (just like mine) and the other has Tannoys. They are both using McIntosh CDPs. IMHO, the McIntosh's sound very smooth, but don't have tight bass or detailed mids/highs. It all sounds, well, smooth. I would not call this "tube-like". I have a BAT VK-30 pre and VK-D5 CDP. Both are very detailed and transparent.

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 10, 1999 at 18:07:47
Sherwood


 
Yea, Now I'm enlightened, finally.
What I want is an accurate sound ...... not a preferable sound !
Thanks Mtry... for a while there I thought I wanted what sounded good to ME.

Throw out the 300-B's ! Get some sand in my life !

john

 

Re: Tube vs SS debate, posted on March 11, 1999 at 10:37:40
mikem


 
Mtry.. please tell us how many tube amps, pre-amps you've owned? How many have you listened to? How much testing have YOU done between SS and tubes?
mike

 

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