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Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?

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Posted on December 31, 2021 at 11:20:42
MylesJ
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Posts: 1259
Location: Oregon Coast
Joined: October 25, 2001
 After a month of reading I decided the Schiit Bifrost would be a good match in my system. I bought one and returned it. The main problem was a lack of attack and drive with dense high energy music. The secondary problems were too much bass on recordings with strong bass and sometimes dropping the Playback volume on instruments that were prominent in the original vinyls. Doing further research the Denifrips Pontus looks good but I saw some comments about the soft leading edge being the only negative.

Is this lack of attack common to all r2r units? If not please offer your suggestions.

 

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RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on December 31, 2021 at 16:20:21
garymuffley
Dealer

Posts: 445
Location: Maryland
Joined: March 29, 2006
 The simple answer to your question is "no".

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on December 31, 2021 at 18:11:37
hahax@verizon.net
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Posts: 4309
Location: New Jersey
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 Agreed. A DAC is not just the DAC itself. There's input and out put circuitry plus a power supply, all of which affect the performance. It's always a mistake to focus on one single factor as a determinant for performance in a complex device.

 

Excellent response, posted on December 31, 2021 at 19:19:57
Mike K
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Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
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 and oh-so-true. If the power supply and analog section are not good, it
doesn't matter how good the actual dac circuitry is.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 07:56:50
AbeCollins
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It's hard to say if what you describe is a deficiency of R2R DACs or just the specific DAC you tried. I owned the Denafrips Ares II which was nice enough but seemed to lack dynamics, drive, and clarity with high energy music. It did fine with female vocals, jazz, etc. but not so much with some of my blues and lots of rock music. It was even worse in NOS mode. Don't get me wrong, it was a very nice DAC for certain genres but I needed a 'daily driver' that sounds great with whatever I'm listening to.

I am presently enjoying the RME ADI-2 DAC FS which retails for $1299. This is the first DAC that I have owned with variable XLR balanced outputs that drive my amps directly w/o losing dynamics. Some others sound a little thinner w/o a preamp.



But like anything else in audio, it's a matter of personal taste and component matching.



 

+1., posted on January 1, 2022 at 10:30:11
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 NT

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 10:36:18
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 I considered buying the RMI piece but did not because I do not need or
want a volume control, headphone jack(s) or the seemingly endless
complexity of the unit's manifold options. I want a dac, period. That
said, I did buy a PS Audio Direct Stream Junior, which has a volume
control. I admit to extreme partiality to PS Audio product.

I've no experience of the sonic goodnesses, or lack thereof, of the RMI
piece but it's been very well received by the community. And the price
is right and it's made in Germany, not China.

As for the DSJ with volume control, I tried driving my amps with the DSJ
directly but found I prefer running it thru my preamp.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 10:45:11
Mick Wolfe
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Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Strange. I have the original Denafrips Ares and I have no problem with dynamics, drive and clarity. In fact, the Ares seems to excel on rock and raw blues. Then again, I'm driving 99 db efficient speakers with a 60 watt tube amp.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 17:58:17
MylesJ
Audiophile

Posts: 1259
Location: Oregon Coast
Joined: October 25, 2001
 Abe - your response give the same reasons I put on the return form. I also told them it had too much bass and was too sugary. It did have the main feature I need which is better presence and bass at medium to low volumes. Like you I am trying to find one DAC that works well on all types of music.

The RME was on the short list but I figured that being another piece of studio gear, it might be too close to the Tascam.

My conjecture is that soft edges and lack of attack are features of the lower end R2Rs.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 18:30:46
MylesJ
Audiophile

Posts: 1259
Location: Oregon Coast
Joined: October 25, 2001
 I agree with all of these points.

How about some R2R suggestions that can keep up with Tascam DA-3000 on dynamics. That is a ADC-DAC unit sold mainly to small recording studios. I run 211 SET mono blocks feeding Audio Note J/Spe speakers. I think that combination was not a good match with the Schiit approach to sounding more analog.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 1, 2022 at 22:13:05
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I would presume that the R2R DAC is non-oversampling..... I have found over the years that non-oversampling DACs tend to sound "busy" with complex music, due to mainly "modulation" artifacts..... But with simple music, these DACs tend to be superior on leading edges, due to the absence of "pre-ringing"......

All DAC designs deal with tradeoffs..... If you prefer complex music, I've found that more conventional oversampling designs do better with such music, if you like simple or acoustic music, the non-oversampling and R2R designs work best.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 2, 2022 at 15:06:12
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I too am very fond of PS Audio gear. I've owned many of their pieces over the years. My favorite DAC to date is my PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC which is a good 6 or 7 years old and outstanding through a good preamp.

On the other hand, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS doesn't require a preamp. It has variable XLR outputs that are very transparent and that additional transparency of running the DAC w/o a preamp is very addicting.

I also have the PS Audio M700 monoblocks and in the past owned the PS Audio HCA-2 amp, PCA-2 preamp, UltraLink series of DACs, and the NuWave DAC - not to be confused with the newer NuWave DSD DAC. All outstanding gear.

As an aside the reasonably priced and very versatile PS Audio GCPH phono is excellent. I tried several very pricey phono preamps over the years and when I downsized my setup I kept the GCPH and sold off the rest. I no longer play vinyl except very occasionally and for that I use the GCPH phono preamp.



 

I do not find this to be the case, posted on January 5, 2022 at 11:17:12
garymuffley
Dealer

Posts: 445
Location: Maryland
Joined: March 29, 2006
 A large portion of my musical preferences is large scale orchestra music. I do not find that my R2R dac handles complex music less well than smaller scale music. It is not a characteristic of R2R.

 

What do you mean?, posted on January 5, 2022 at 13:23:57
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 what is dense high energy music and I will check for you. FWIW I haven't noticed anything like that on my Border patrol.


Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 6, 2022 at 00:02:07
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I don't know how the Schiit is designed because it is SS only correct?

Many tubes DACs and CD players (not Audio Note) use their tubes as a "buffer" stage after some opamps or some such to "soften" the sound or to try to make it sound "tubey."

I have a line Magnetic 502CA that basically does this - and it can be nice sounding but it doesn't go away. It "softens" everything - which is great for lesser recordings but as you note - it also softens the leading edge.

My LM also has a SS-only mode like the Bifrost. Frankly, I found it unlistenable in SS mode. Thin and edgy. So I never bothered to listen to it that way.

I can't remember the Bifrost much - Schitt hasn't made much of an impression on me one way or the other but perhaps they are trying to compensate for cheaper parts. Perhaps try and get a second hand Audio Note 0.1X DAC If you buy it used you can probably sell it on for the same money or close so it's not too big of a risk - or even try one of the ANKits DACs - Those are not too pricey and they usually have a small fee to build it for you - but it's harder to sell a kit than a finished product I should think.

 

RE: What do you mean?, posted on January 6, 2022 at 10:01:02
Mick Wolfe
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Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 I have a friend who has a BP DAC as well and I'm sure he would agree with you and ask the same question :)

 

RE: What do you mean?, posted on January 6, 2022 at 12:21:03
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Yeah man not sure what he is talking about...but I was wanting to know what kind of music he is talking about. Right now I am listening to Rage Against the Machine and even with the 2 tube stages after the Border Patrol, I feel like doing a drive by...

FWIW I am not sure exactly what is being asked musically. Like is that drums hitting? Or bass transients? If its anything like that then yeah I can see what your buddy is saying. You can turn on and off the tube rectification and one thing I notice is that the bass is quicker and harder with the tube turned on.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: What do you mean?, posted on January 7, 2022 at 09:42:18
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 About all I can add in regard to my friend is that he's enjoying the BP DAC more so than any DAC or CDP he'd previously owned. And none of them ( DAC's or CDP's) were exactly chopped liver.

 

RE: What do you mean?, posted on January 8, 2022 at 15:03:55
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Totally get it. My dac died and i was looking at a replacement. Looked at a ton of dacs. This vid where he said a/bing the Qutest with the BP the Qutest was better but when listening for hours to the BP he didnt want to go back to the qutest, is part of why i got the BP

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 9, 2022 at 00:23:06
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 The RME is my weapon of choice at the moment - I bought it mainly for the ADC section because I wanted higher sample rates than my Benchmark ADC1USB could achieve through USB, but the decode side is my reference at the moment!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

+1....no problem with complex music using Denafrips Ares :), posted on January 12, 2022 at 08:57:16
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 NT

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 13, 2022 at 04:22:13
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 No, it is an effect of a cheap DAC and/or poor implementation.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 13, 2022 at 04:38:56
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Maybe it is a symptom of what is today called R2R, which often means a discrete DAC (like Denafrips).

All the great classic DACs, which used Chip R2R (Like BB PCM63, AD1865, AD1862, PCM1702 and PCM1704) had tons of drive, detail and were powerful sounding...much better than the overly smooth sigma/delta DACs.

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 13, 2022 at 04:49:33
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 The best DAC PS Audio ever made was the Ultra DAC II, which used the Ultra Analog D20400A 20Bit DAC module. I have one and for redbook cd it is excellent. All their sigma/delta DACs make me yawn...

 

RE: Do all R2R DACs sand off the leading edge of notes?, posted on January 21, 2022 at 04:18:21
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 I don't know exactly what you are hearing but I have heard systems with that sharp leading edge... which at first sounds impressive and "high end". But if you listen to live music, you really don't hear that quality. What you hear is super fast dynamics across the bandwidth. And to get that in hifi you need big, quality components... especially in the Power supplies and analog output stages. In my opinion, the best way to get that is w transformers. Those little pea shooter DAC's from Schitt and PS Audio etc.. just don't have the iron to create an unforced natural dynamic sound. They sell you the algorithms with more complicated chips and that crispy leading edge. Once you live with an Audio Note, for example, you wont even be able to listen to that without cringing.

 

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