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Uneducated Question of the day: Why do I need a Streamer to listen Tidal/Qobuz?

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Posted on November 27, 2021 at 09:10:36
oldmkvi
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Why can't I just play them through my Dac, ala Internet Radio?

 

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You don't need a streamer but..., posted on November 27, 2021 at 10:49:11
AbeCollins
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The short answer....

You can listen to Tidal or Qobuz using their respective player Apps on your PC or Mac with your PC/Mac coupled to an outboard DAC.

You can use a commercially manufactured streamer that supports Tidal and Qobuz playback. The streamer is then coupled to an outboard DAC. Some streamers will be "all in one" with the streamer and DAC together.

You can build a streamer using the Raspberry Pi board with misc additional components including case and power supply for well under $100.

There are so many variations. Keep in mind that Tidal and Qobuz are premium streaming services and not the same thing as the thousands of internet radio stations out there. In general, you listen to whatever the internet radio station happens to be streaming. With Tidal/Qobuz you can choose the albums that YOU want to hear. You can create your own Playlists, play album tracks in sequence, or shuffle all the tunes in your playlist. There's much more you can do but that's the 30,000 foot view.



 

RE: Uneducated Question of the day: Why do I need a Streamer to listen Tidal/Qobuz?, posted on November 27, 2021 at 12:25:01
Cut-Throat
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I have a question for you? --- What is the DAC you are using that plays internet radio? --- My Guess is that it is a Streamer that also has a DAC, something like a Squeezebox Touch.

So, it's possible that your current Streamer will Stream Qobuz or Tidal, depending on what software it uses.




 

Because Sony won't build the player into their DAC..., posted on November 27, 2021 at 16:08:46
Ivan303
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and YOU are stuck with a DAC that only has an input via ethernet from the network? Will do internet radio but that's it?

Maybe a way. Run Audirvana on a computer on your local network and MAYBE Audirvana can find your DAC as a DLNA node? Or maybe do Roon on a music server and let Rood serve up QOBUZ?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Uneducated Question of the day: Why do I need a Streamer to listen Tidal/Qobuz?, posted on November 27, 2021 at 19:20:44
John Elison
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You don't need a streamer, but you might like to subscribe to one of the streaming websites to gain access to almost unlimited music. I subscribed to QOBUZ for a few months until I discovered I wasn't using it very often so I canceled my subscription.

I use a small autonomous digital player/streamer. I can store 1-TB of my favorite music in its micro SD memory and that's how I play my digital music now. However, my digital player has WiFi connectivity with the capability to download any of the streaming apps in addition to having access to internet radio. However, I get the most pleasure out of listening to all the digital music files I've collected and stored in my player's 1-TB memory.

I find my little autonomous digital player most convenient for my purposes. It will do everything I want and it will play all digital formats up through DSD256. The vast majority of my digital music files were ripped from CDs in 16/44 WAV, but I also have a lot of higher resolution PCM digital files in addition to a number of DSD64 files from SACDs and DSD128 files I've recorded from LPs as well as DSD256 files downloaded from places like Native DSD.

This little digital player has both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs. It has a one-megapixel touch screen for displaying album covers and music lists. It will do everything that I can think of without the need for a separate computer. It is totally autonomous and it costs only $750 from B&H Photo. The best part is that it sounds awesome, just as good as my Mytek Brooklyn Bridge.

 

And there's more..., posted on November 27, 2021 at 23:22:12
PAR
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...oldmkvi can also download their portable apps to his phone or tablet (certainly Qobuz , I presume Tidal has something similar) so he can listen anywhere using headphones or connect to his audio system if it has Blue Tooth (lossy) or Apple airplay (CD resolution) capability or figure out a wired connection.

The Qobuz Windows or Mac computer player is particularly good as it gives access to all of the curated textual material (articles on composers, artists, genres of music etc) and, where available, can display the CD booklet for the album selected.

Access to both Qobuz and/or Tidal is integrated with Roon given the relevant subscriptions.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

Maybe not possible for the OLDMKVI...., posted on November 28, 2021 at 06:29:18
Ivan303
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Believe he has an older Sony HAP-Z1ES. Good as it is, it is only a NETWORK playing DAC with no USB interface or inputs for anything other than a USB drive or Ethernet.

And worse, while a network connection seems to be possible, it's likely NOT a DLNA endpoint so Audirvana over a network might not work either, BUT...

If it is ROON capable then maybe ROON running or a server might work?

No mention of that in the SONY technical summary.

oldmkvi is a limited guy. :-(



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

What I don't understand ............., posted on November 28, 2021 at 06:38:06
Cut-Throat
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is how he is able to play Internet Radio? -- I did not see that in the Features that you linked to.



 

I like it becsause it is self-contained., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:15:53
oldmkvi
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NO Network, except to load Files into the Sony.
With Clarus Crimson SE ICs, and Clarus Aqua PC, played through my MC 275 Tube Amp, and Kef 104.2 Speakers, it sounds great to me, everything played back at DSD 128.
I wish they would come out with a Z2.

 

The Sony has Tune-in and Spotify., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:20:04
oldmkvi
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It re-constructs the mp3 stream and converts it to DSD 128.
Plenty good enough for me.
I also listen on my Desktop System, through whatever Dac I have hooked up.
Works fine , but only mp3 quality.
Still better than any FM Tuner I ever had, FM is terrible around here.

 

Sorry, I don't understand your comment...! , posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:23:22
oldmkvi
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I listen to Files with HQ, and get Internet radio through USB, off the Router hooked up to my iMac with Ethernet cable.

 

OK, now I can answer your question that you first asked..... Why do you need a Streamer ......, posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:31:21
Cut-Throat
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The reason you need a Streamer is because the Streamer that you currently have has vary poor Proprietary software that only supports Spotify and Tune in Radio. It also has an internal DAC that you cannot even input another Streamer into.

So, what you really need if you want to Stream Tidal and Qobuz is

1.) A Streamer with software to support Streaming of Tidal and Qobuz.
2.) And an External DAC

I would stay completely away from Streamers that have Proprietary software or you will run into another problem down the road exactly like the problem you have currently.

This is the reason that I recommend staying away from "All in One Appliances' like yours, as they soon become obsolete with Software that is outdated and will not support Updates.

And is also the reason that I recommend getting an inexpensive Raspberry Pi with Open Software of your choice. It is Feature Rich, inexpensive and very high quality sound that will support Native DSD... All for $100. -- Then get a DAC of your choice. -- Then Use the Sony as a Paperweight.





 

But he LIKES his Sony High-Resolution Audio HDD Player HAP-Z1ES..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:40:12
Ivan303
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He is HABby with his HAP, and he is STUBBORN and will not replace it with something that allows other inputs, like Tidal and/or QOBUZ.

If he had a Sony piece that did DLNA over a local network then perhaps he could use Audirvana running on a computer to stream whatever was on his computer, be it TIDAL or QOBUZ.

Maybe Sony comes up with a HAP-Z2ES that allows that.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

But, He's learning to Hate the Sony as he will continue to ......., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:46:28
Cut-Throat
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bump into Problems exactly this one... People that have Lumin Streamers will also hit this 'Wall of unsupport'. It is inevitable.



 

No, if he want's to hear something on QOBUZ..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:49:48
Ivan303
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he can download it from QOBUZ and his HAP will be HAPpy to play it. Even up-sample it.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

But in his defense at the time...., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:54:34
AbeCollins
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That Sony was pretty leading edge and those streaming services weren't around back then as best I recall.

But, it didn't make a lot of sense to me because you need a computer in the first place to transfer your files to the Sony HAP-Z1ES. If you have a computer why not use it and simply output your audio through a DAC attached to the computer? And like the Sony, the computer can stream internet radio too. I also don't like the fact that Sony doesn't give you access to the DAC in the HAP-Z1ES.

Additionally, as we've discussed about proprietary hardware solutions, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to keep up with the times by updating their software. Since that doesn't always happen the user is often left with old tech that won't do the things they want today.

I believe the Sony HAP-Z1ES came out in early 2014 so its nearly 8 years old, hasn't been significantly updated, yet it's still available new for $2000.



 

RE: No, if he want's to hear something on QOBUZ..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 07:57:00
AbeCollins
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" he can download it from QOBUZ and his HAP will be HAPpy to play it. Even up-sample it."

Download and transfer before play. That's kind of a hassle, no? Beats the purpose and convenience of streaming but maybe you're just being a funny guy this morning ;-)



 

But when you buy an expensive solution ....................., posted on November 28, 2021 at 08:08:44
Cut-Throat
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to a 'Moving Target Technology', you are asking for problems like this. There were cheaper solutions around then like a Squeezebox Touch, that you could Buy for $300...

Sure, it was leading edge, but it had proprietary software that eventually companies cannot afford to support on old devices.... Which was bound to happen.




 

Not really. There are a lot of downloaders only..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 08:09:59
Ivan303
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who post here. Not everyone is a streamer.

ChrisfromLafayette downloads even though he has QOBUZ, but then he's into multi-channel.

Others just like owning the stuff they listen to, even if it's only a file on a computer.

I have about 4000 LPs, two TTs and who knows how many thousand CDs but these days I mostly stream.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

The answer is DLNA..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 08:15:37
Ivan303
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If only.

My DCS Network Bridge is an older proprietary box but along with some recent (years ago) updates, it does both QOBUZ and TIDAL.

Also, Audirvana running on a Mac Mini recognizes it on the network and will at least TRY to play through it.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: But when you buy an expensive solution ....................., posted on November 28, 2021 at 08:17:01
AbeCollins
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I get what you're saying and it puzzles me that Sony hasn't significantly updated the HAP-Z1ES software in nearly 8 years. The product is still available new for $2000.



 

RE: But when you buy an expensive solution ....................., posted on November 28, 2021 at 08:43:01
Sibelius
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Closed loop software is definitely a dead end in digital. If you can get some years out of it, and it suits your purposes that's fine I guess. But yeah pricey stuff like Lumin, Sim Moon Mind (though I'd expect them to be around) etc. can become paper weights. I think there's room for the Bluesound, Sonore niche as they are plug and play but don't necessarily cost a fortune for people like me who want that PnP option.

I've only been able to keep using my SB Touch through the devotion of Michael Herger of Logitech who's kept LMS going through the years, created Spotty which is much better than the Spotify app for it, and the Qobuz app.

 

Or UPnP but it supports neither. , posted on November 28, 2021 at 09:43:57
Ivan303
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So SOL. :-(


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

DLNA/UPnP can save the day..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 12:26:40
Ivan303
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Do all the heavy lifting on computer or server and send it off to the streaming DAC.

That's how the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC with Network Bridge II works(I think).

It both supports TIDAL and QOBUZ internally plus is a DLNA/UPnP for JRiver or Audirvana (or so they claim).



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: DLNA/UPnP can save the day..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 14:04:59
Sibelius
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Well, I already bought a pricey non streaming SACD player (yes, I still spin discs)/DAC. I use ROON wirelessly from my Macbook to the SB Touch to the DAC via USB, SPDIF or Toslink. Looking for something as simple to set up and use, with the same functionality as the Touch, backed by a mfg. for support. And I'm not going to spend thousands for it! I love the Touch, but it goes through cycles of flawless performance, then intermittent reboots, while nothing has changed in the system or the network.

 

RE: "but it goes through cycles of flawless performance, then.., posted on November 28, 2021 at 14:49:58
Ivan303
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intermittent reboots, while nothing has changed"

My experience with the Pi using LMS.

Looking for something more turnkey with one box for both streaming and DAC.

Can't afford a new PS Audio Direct Stream with Bridge II though. OK, can but don't want to.

dCS Network Bridge works well with my Terminator in my main system though. Ridiculously priced, when you add the cost of both boxes.

And only a S/PDIF or AES/EBU cable between them.

And the dCS is dated (PCM 24/192 about it) even though it sounds very good as a bridge/streamer.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "but it goes through cycles of flawless performance, then.., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:08:55
Cut-Throat
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My Rpies/LMS are so stable that I never have to fool with them.... I've got 9 of them running in the House, and I take one traveling and never have any issues.

I suspect it's your Network or Internet Provider/Speeds. Not sure what kind of Router or Modem that you use... But I keep my Network Gear up to date and Updated with the current software.

I can assure you that Your Pi and LMS has Nothing to do with any Instability you have... There are a lot of other Components in the Chain that are causing the instability. You are still using a Digione Board with known Static Problems too, right? --- That was my last problem which was solved Years ago.

I also run a Rpi with just the LMS Server on it, which is always running. The other Rpies are just players.... The LMS Server Rpi has a Static IP address, so it is extremely stable.




 

The SB touch could be flaky at times ..............., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:11:31
Cut-Throat
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The LMS Software on the SB Touch, was subject to some quirks... Not near as stable as the LMS on PiCorePlayer.



 

RE: The SB touch could be flaky at times ..............., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:42:15
Sibelius
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From day 1 it's been flaky. Took forever to get it connected out of the box as I recall.

Any experience with it using a wired ethernet connection? Have wondered whether an Ethernet Over Powerline adapter (router is across the room from the system) would help keep it stable. I installed the Enhanced Digital Output option, and it is much better than it used to be.

After spending A LOT (for me) of money on my player and amp I'm choosing a headphone upgrade over a streamer upgrade for now, since it does still work most of the time and sounds pretty good into the Ruby's DAC.

 

Not using LMS anymore..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:47:21
Ivan303
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Too flaky.

Using a Pi here and a Pi there with various hats and no hat on a Pi4 (USB which kinda sucks but is good enough for headphone/bedroom system over WiFi) and they are all now running a free version of Volumio but used only as a DLNA/UPnP end point for Audirvana to send to.

This works about as well as anything I've tried so far, using the Pi as a streamer.

Even had some luck with WiFi, the Pi4 USB to a Chord MoJo and cans.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: The SB touch could be flaky at times ..............., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:53:37
Cut-Throat
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Yes, I always used Ethernet to the SB Touch on my Main System and that was a lot more stable than wireless. I use Ethernet on my RPies in my main system.



 

RE: Not using LMS anymore..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 15:56:44
Cut-Throat
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LMS is not Flaky at all... It's other Software/Hardware in your System. LMS has a lot more features and settings that you need to set up. Volumio is basic and is good for Beginners.



 

Volumio does one thing PcP can't do running a Pi..., posted on November 28, 2021 at 16:06:28
Ivan303
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as a DLNA/UPnP end point for Audirvana. Maybe works as well with JRiver, but I don't know that.

Volumio does that one task very well.

For my needs, Audirvana betters LMS in every way.







First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Sorry, I don't understand your comment...! , posted on November 28, 2021 at 21:56:08
zacster
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If you get Internet radio from a computer to your DAC all you need then is the Qobuz software to get that instead. It is a free download to the Mac, plus the subscription to the service itself. There is probably a free trial subscription too and you could just try it. Also Tidal has a $2 trial subscription for 3 months to their hi-res plan, and they also have a desktop app. Both apps allow you to choose the output and if it can see your DAC you're golden.

If you have wifi in your house, or even can plug a device into your wired internet, a Raspberry Pi running Volumio will act as a DLNA endpoint and allow wireless streaming from Qobuz in hi-res that runs on your mac. Once you set up Volumio, an easy process, Qobuz will just recognize it, no configuration needed. Don't be intimidated by the process, it is easy.

 

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