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options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs

72.196.68.202
Posted on January 11, 2021 at 14:11:17
raq
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Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Hi all,
This is likely the most circulated subject on this forum, and so apologies if I'm asking for a customized mapping of options and such - researching this gets overwhelming very quickly! I did give it a fair shot, and am continuing to do so.

I just got a nano IoT Win 10 computer to serve my trusty DDDAC1543+WaveIO USB DAC. Evaluating if I should be able to perform the same duty with a Rasperry Pi...

Though it's conceivable I may upgrade my DAC (likely a Topping), I don't estimate going off USB any time soon.

So...
- is the RPI up to competently stream things such as Tidal (at least as accurately as a PC)? Indications here and elsewhere are a yes, but I'm not at all clear how as I don't see Raspbian compatible Tidal apps, etc.
- is the RPI compatible with my USB interface? This is I'd say nearly a deal breaker.
- is this a truly convenient (and also quality) proposition in regular use? Not to claim my setup is state of the art, but just looking to hear thoughts. Currently, I'm RDP-ing into the nano PC, including from my Android phone, and it's not the easiest thing to adjust the volume, but it works ok and possibilities to perform other things are nearly infinite this being an ok Windows 10 station (while I expect the RPI to be fairly limited).

Thank you all for helping with this!

 

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If,,,, posted on January 11, 2021 at 15:38:15
Javier
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Posts: 338
Location: Laredo
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 You have the time Rpi4 plus a hat going into your topping is the most cost effective solution, if you are not technically oriented you cannot wrong with a blusound node 2i you can stream directly into it Tidal ,Spotify ,pandora, Deezer and is also roon ready the only thing it doesn't do is DSD. I just love it
It also does Amazon music

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 11, 2021 at 15:59:45
mlsstl
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Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 I have a Qobuz subscription, not Tidal, but my RPi 4 works fine. I use the Picoreplayer OS to run it which allows me to log into my Qobuz account. I run a USB cable from the RPi to the USB input of my Topping DAC to play the music. This works fine and streams everything perfectly, including the 24/192K material. I use a wireless connection, but the RPi also accepts ethernet cables. The RPi also plays my personal collection which is stored on my PC's hard drive.

I would recommend Picoreplayer or one of the several other RPi OS options which are dedicated to a music player format rather than the generic Raspbian OS option.

 

"- is this a truly convenient (and also quality) proposition in regular use?" .........., posted on January 11, 2021 at 16:05:09
Cut-Throat
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 "- is this a truly convenient (and also quality) proposition in regular use?"

The answer to your question is "YES"... I can afford any streamer that I want, and my Choice is the Raspberry Pi running PiCorePlayer. I have run a Raspberry Pi for about 6 years now. Here is a picture of my Listening Room.










 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 11, 2021 at 16:22:39
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Thanks for this, very interesting...

So Picoreplayer is not just a music player (as the name seems to indicate) but a full OS?

I wonder if it's at all compatible with Tidal.

It sounds like one of these multi-boot platforms such as PINN can allow for it and other OSs (like raspbian etc.) to live on the RPI, correct?

Sorry, NOOB at this.

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 11, 2021 at 16:27:10
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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 PiCorePlayer is a Complete Music Streaming OS... Both the Server and the Player Software.... And it supports Tidal. -- I have used Tidal, but now prefer Qobuz. And PiCorePlayer is Free with Donations accepted.

I have about 8 or 9 raspberry Pies running it at home.



 

Full OS, fine with Tidal, posted on January 11, 2021 at 18:30:55
valvesonly
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Posts: 755
Location: Ontario
Joined: May 27, 2005
 I have a few.

Using a RPi4 8MB booting off a USB3 500 GB SSD as music storage, Picoreplayer 7, LMS 8 and Tidal HiFi into Bryston BDA2 via USB. This is headless so I use Ipeng on a Iphone but you can use few alternatives on Android.

Picoreplayer/LMS are very detailed, some setup due to the numerous options, but cut-throat or Abe Collins have helped many inmates through this.


.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

 

So Picoreplayer is not just a music player (as the name seems to indicate) but a full OS?, posted on January 11, 2021 at 19:31:59
mlsstl
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Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 Yes, but it is a full operating system ONLY for the purpose of playing music. Below is a link to their web site where you can learn more about the scope of its capabilities. You can also download a copy of the OS from this site.

Tne neat thing, as a free program (and they accept donations if you like what you find), is that after you download it and burn it to an SD card for your Raspberry Pi, if you don't care for the program for whatever reason, simply pull the SD card out and reburn a different RPi OS and try that. As noted, there are some other options for dedicated music player OS programs if you feel like experimenting. (For full disclosure, I also have RPi players with the HiFiBerry OS, but this OS only works if you are using a HiFiBerry HAT card on your RPi.)

 

RE: So Picoreplayer is not just a music player (as the name seems to indicate) but a full OS?, posted on January 12, 2021 at 06:02:25
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Thank you, continuing to learn on this.

I've also seen this: https://www.hifizine.com/2016/06/how-to-stream-tidal-to-the-raspberry-pi/, but it looks like an alternative option to the picoreplayer solution.

 

Another idea to consider..., posted on January 12, 2021 at 07:05:13
E-Stat
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 If you have multiple areas in your home to play music, use your Win10 device as music server with multiple streamers attached via network for playback.

In that way, you can leverage a common digital library and ability to stream Pandora/Spotify/Tidal/Qobuz/internet radio without the need for a PC everywhere.

I use a wide range of different players around the house and use an RPi in the garage system.

 

RE: Another idea to consider..., posted on January 12, 2021 at 07:51:26
raq
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Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 This is interesting, thank you.

I do have a server that does storage (a T20/Win 10 with a RAID5 array) which I'm currently upgrading the CPU of to account for potential increase hardware demand in case I'd want more stuff running on it. This could well serve such duty, it seems to me. Not sure how to implement all that yet.

To add - it's not that much that I have multiple areas to play, it's more that I want to keep the gear footprint low. As few cables as possible, small boxes, etc. - and most of my stuff is heavy (tubes, early solid state, etc.). Spouse acceptance factor a concern. The gateway, (1)AP, router, server, printer is in a large wall nook kind of thing, away from my main system, and overall there's about a dozen different computers and other IPs spread throughout the house. Also, a few other wifi broadcast points scattered around the house.

Anyway, the main thing here is that the main system is currently served by a WaveIO/DDDAC1543, and needs to be wireless for any digital playback. I am going to try the piCorePlayer OS (likely investigate PINN as a multi boot loader, so I can keep the current Raspberry Pi OS with software I already have running on there, but be able to switch...)

 

There are multiple ways..., posted on January 12, 2021 at 08:05:45
E-Stat
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 FWIW, I use Logitech Media Server (LMS) which supports both audio and video content and is free for the download. Mine is hosted on a Synology NAS with a huge (>6 GB) RAM cache.

I find general purpose computers not ideal for music playback duty. I'd rather use small, inherently low noise headless streamers with tiny footprint operating systems optimized for a single duty. Remote control by watch/phone/pad.

 

RE: There are multiple ways..., posted on January 12, 2021 at 08:47:01
raq
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Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006



>I find general purpose computers not ideal for music playback duty. I'd rather use small, inherently low noise headless streamers with tiny footprint operating systems optimized for a single duty. Remote control by watch/phone/pad.

Totally with you there. The current computer serving the DAC is a nano Lenovo, fanless and tiny, just a bit larger than the RPI (see attachment). There's the power supply cord and USB going to the DAC, that's it. It runs headless and I RDP into it from my other computers (usually my laptop) or even my Android phone.

 

The difference is, posted on January 12, 2021 at 10:04:18
E-Stat
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 one runs a 256 MB Win10 image running all matter of background processes... while the other runs a Linux variant in half that amount of space that stays resident in memory and never swaps.

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 12, 2021 at 17:24:27
wheezer
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Posts: 4309
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 Are heat sinks and a fan necessary?

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 12, 2021 at 17:49:14
Cut-Throat
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 No, but not a big deal anyway.



 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 12, 2021 at 19:04:44
Doublej
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Posts: 678
Location: Boston
Joined: January 11, 2009
 Head over to Darko Audio on YouTube. Lots of videos on streaming with Pi and at least one other cheap device called the Xiaomi Mi Box S ($50). It supports USB.

I think you could also install Plex on your W10 machine and with a Plex Pass stream Tidal. I believe Plex has an Android remote control app or you can control it through a browser on your Android device. I imagine either will be so much better than RDP into W10.




 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 13, 2021 at 04:05:51
zacster
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Posts: 2179
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 I bought a case that was also a heat sink that included fans. I tried it with the fans and all it did was use more battery power. They were silent though so that wasn't a problem. I've used it since without the fans though. No problems at all. The brand on it was MazurPi.

 

piCorePlayer, Tidal & ickstream plugin, posted on January 13, 2021 at 08:43:08
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006



Alright, here's where I'm at with this.

I have piCorePLayer installed on the RPI, seems to work ok over wifi. Connected my DAC over USB and it seems to talk to it, though it went to most basic rate (44.1); default over Win 10 before that I set at 192.

From this point on, I seem to be directed to have LMS on, and furthermore, install this ick plugin to it (per Tidal support...). Tried, though it doesn't seem to come in properly (see enclosed image). Also, ick seems to be shut down: http://forum.ickstream.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1087&sid=cd5581805e683b661fd29c87b331bc53.

Am I on the right track here?...

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:07:25
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
 Thanks for that.

 

RE: piCorePlayer, Tidal & ickstream plugin, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:11:45
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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  Since: May 16, 2021
 Forget ickstream.... I don't think it's functional anymore.

There is a pluggin for Tidal... Enable and Apply it...... Click on 'Logitech' at the end of the Tidal Plugin Line and it will take you to the LMS Page that E-Stat mentioned to add Tidal. You'll have to create a free account. That is where you'll enter your credentials.




 

Close, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:13:59
E-Stat
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 Others of us have used the Tidal interface originally developed by Logitech. It does, however, require a (free) login to the LMS App Gallery in order to use. Once you do that, then the add on will be visible.

Click here for the App Gallery and create an account. Then add the app.

Here's what my Plugins tab screen looks like. I used this "official" one until I migrated to Qobuz.



 

RE: piCorePlayer, Tidal & ickstream plugin, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:39:11
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Thank you, Cut-Throat - I was able to add the addon. I appreciate your help.

 

RE: Close, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:41:12
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Thanks a bunch, I was able to add it.

On the other hand, LMS would not start for the world. Not sure why, I think I had it running at the beginning. Now I'm getting an error about admin account running the service - but I am admin on this, running as, and I see no related Windows services even there for LMS.

Still investigating.

 

RE: Close, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:50:25
E-Stat
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 I never used the service when I ran LMS on a Win7 box. Just chose to have it automatically start the server process at boot up. I got a message in red about not being able to run the service. Didn't matter.

Suggest running Control Panel where you can view whether or not the server is actually running.

 

RE: Close, posted on January 13, 2021 at 09:56:44
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Control Panel on computer where LME is running says it's running, but piCorePlayer on RPI says it's not...

 

Suggest..., posted on January 13, 2021 at 10:00:09
E-Stat
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 double checking IP addresses and port # (typically 9002).

Open browser on your PC using both IP:port and see if it can access.

 

If I were you .................., posted on January 13, 2021 at 10:25:54
Cut-Throat
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 I'd run LMS and Squeezelite on the Raspberry Pi (Not sure where you are trying to Run LMS at) ... Plenty of enough horsepower to do this and it removes all of the complexities of Windows. I am doing this when I travel at my winter destination.








 

RE: piCorePlayer, Tidal & ickstream plugin, posted on January 13, 2021 at 11:28:12
Zombie
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Posts: 772
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 LMS now integrates Tidal seamlessly with the local collection. Play eandom and it picks from your Tidal favourites, too. Not even Tidal itself does that. Bloody bvilliant!

 

RE: Suggest..., posted on January 13, 2021 at 18:47:01
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 I managed to get it to work by installing LMS on the RPI itself (maybe just bypassing port issues....). For clarity, I was trying to install LMS on my laptop while, obviously, piCorePlayer was running on RPI.

But somehow I managed to lose the USB Audio on the piCorePlayer - in the sense that I am no longer getting the WaveIO LED to light any rate LED etc. - instead they stay off, and I am getting hiss out of the DAC (I checked with my laptop - the DAC works OK otherwise). The WaveIO LED on the board - indicating USB is active/connected - is on when hooked to RPI.

Not sure what happened, investigating it tonight. Any suggestions welcome.

 

RE: Suggest..., posted on January 13, 2021 at 18:53:35
E-Stat
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 For clarity, I was trying to install LMS on my laptop...

As for me, I find laptops poor servers with their active power management *features*. They drop out unexpectedly.

 

RE: Suggest..., posted on January 13, 2021 at 19:18:15
raq
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Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Good point. Pending figuring out where each one of these components belongs, I'd have likely moved LMS on my file server and away from the laptop. But if I can reliably have it on the RPI itself, that seems to me the optimal solution. It's a 4GB RPI, 64GB MicroSD card, and feels reasonably snappy responding to (IP:9000) player while moving around Tidal, so that may work.

Just have to figure what the heck is going on with the USB audio.

 

Finally got it to work, posted on January 13, 2021 at 21:07:53
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Man, this was NOT a slam dunk.

After a good while of frustrating trials and errors, I basically decided to just reimage the piCorePlayer and start anew. Even so, it needed an additional, uncalled for restart before it started talking to the USB DAC.

So, I finally can start figuring out if I even like it.... It seems to default to 44.1, now I'll start to tinker with those settings (assuming I can adjust them). Hopefully, it doesn't go back offline on me again.

Thank you all who helped! I'm sure I'll come back here with questions.

 

RE: Finally got it to work, posted on January 14, 2021 at 00:15:59
Cut-Throat
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 Of course it is not a 'slam Dunk' as PcP does so much more than other Streaming Software...

One thing I should mention, if you are going to use a Music Library with the Rpi, is that on LMS you should Expand the SD Card to the 'Whole Card' and add additional File Systems when Setting up LMS. Otherwise, you'll get errors when Scanning the Library for Indexing.



 

Recommend heat sinks..., posted on January 14, 2021 at 11:17:08
mlsstl
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Posts: 1079
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 ... but a fan is not necessary. The heat sinks specific for a RPi are stick-on and only add a couple of bucks -- I think I spent $4 for a set.

 

and now Volumio too... , posted on January 14, 2021 at 16:43:00
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 The next step for me now was to set Volumio up too, and it's been a breeze. I am at the beginning of trying these out, but this far Volumio is has a few pluses, for instance:
- better controls for audio quality of streaming
- recognized the USB receiver immediately (WaveIO). It seems adding native support to it may be a possibility as they seem to do this very open source, so that may close the deal for me
- apparent MQA native compatibility
- seems to sound better this far (well, after just a few minutes of listening, so jury's still out)

The fact that I'm currently really only focusing on Tidal streaming may be a big factor in my determinations. This far I feel Volumio on the RPI is the alternative that will make me send the nano Win 10 computer back.

The RPI feat with the MicroSD card "multiple OS swap" setup is fantastic. I think I'll give a try to MoOde next...

 

RE: and now Volumio too... , posted on January 14, 2021 at 17:03:57
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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  Since: May 16, 2021
 Yes, Volumio is easy to set up. I've got it installed on another Card... But it is very limited in features that I use on a daily basis from PcP. I also prefer Qobuz over Tidal and Volumiio charges for their interface to Qobuz.

So, Volumio is a 'No Go' for me. I've also tried MoOde too. I try them all.



 

RE: and now Volumio too... , posted on January 14, 2021 at 17:42:31
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Volumio charges for Tidal access too - though not sure if it ties into Tidal subscription tiers (I am a paying subscriber for their enhanced streams). It seems to me all of the premium streaming services add a cost on Volumio.

 

RE: and now Volumio too... , posted on January 14, 2021 at 17:50:05
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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 My point is not to judge streaming services too fast. You've got 1 day on PiCorePlayer and less than that on Volumio. I've got years on both of them, as well as others. There are over 50 different Plugins available on PiCorePlayer. Some of them I find indispensable.

Take your time.




 

RE: and now Volumio too... , posted on January 15, 2021 at 09:33:15
raq
Audiophile

Posts: 371
Location: Chicago
Joined: May 2, 2006
 Cut-Throat - definitely, not rushing anywhere. As I said, the jury is still out and there's a plethora of aspects to clarify, from technical to logistical. In my experience, the devil is always in the details.

Thanks for your input.

 

RE: options for streaming (particularly Tidal)... and DACs, posted on January 16, 2021 at 09:23:26
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Also, the Raspberry Pi is fine for Temps up to 80 Centigrade, so even without Fans and Heat Sinks, Mine never go above 60 Cent. -- The heat sinks are often included with the Cases that I buy, so I use them. But in reality, they are not needed.

The people that are using Raspberry Pi for gaming are the ones that are hitting temperatures above 65 Centigrade.. The uses for Music Streaming do not tax the boundaries of temperatures of the Raspberry Pi hardware.




 

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