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Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA

71.93.45.164
Posted on January 7, 2021 at 13:33:00
Terry P
 My beloved almost 6 year old Cary DAC-100t S/PDIF output board is apparently bad so rather than shipping it back and a large repair fee I'm considering a new DAC. Two top contenders are those in the subject line which were chosen based on reviews here and a few elsewhere.

==> I'd love your input regarding my biggest concern which is that I'm a mostly tube and analog guy who hates hard edgy digital sound. The Gungir has gotten some rave reviews for fluid and organic sound, i.e., exactly what I'm looking for. Do you think it truly has that?

I'm currently into hi-rez streaming using a Bluesound Node 2i and Qobuz as the service although I've also tried Amazon and Tidal.

I've added the Topping as a contender because Abe mentitoned them in another thread. But I've also read a post or two which mentioned that the D90 has an overly detailed-oriented sound. Which is not what I want.

 

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RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 14:23:49
chocolate_lover9999@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1628
Location: South Central Coast, California
Joined: October 12, 2003
 This video might be helpful.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 14:56:59
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I haven't heard the Schiit Gungir Multibit but I really like my Topping D90. However, I consider the Topping to be very detailed with excellent transient impact and transparency. I wouldn't call it edgy but it is not "smooth" like one would expect from a tube DAC or a tube output stage. It does have a nice full bodied robust sound - unlike some others I've owned like Mytek or Oppo. Those sound a bit thin or lean to me. I've read that Denafrips makes a smooth sounding DAC. Ivan303 owns one.




 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 16:46:16
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Based on all the reviews I watch which is way more than someone not in the market for a dac exactly I agree with the assertion of the D-90 being " overly detailed-oriented sound". Its probably not what you are looking for. But do note that that is almost always in relation to other dacs like the schiit. So its probably not an absolute.

Also I seem to recall the D90 not being a soundstage champ relative some other dacs and if you are a tube guy its likely you would notice that.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 16:59:01
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015



I don't know the other but I have the Multibit version or the Gungnir. I run MacBook Pro Retina with Aurdivana with the softwares upsampling.

This DAC is smooth yet very detailed. Excellent soundstage. Very detailed as in you can here the decay of a kick drum, the sound shape of a room something was recorded in.

If you are an analog guy you will love this DAC.

I have heard a lot of DAC's and systems at dealers and shows. Only reason I may upgrade would be PS Audio's DAC but then we're at $6K.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 17:08:55
Terry P
 That video was helpful. Thanks!

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 M, posted on January 7, 2021 at 17:21:25
Terry P
 Abe - thanks for your objectivity and also letting me know that the D90 has a full and meaty sound! The improved full and more weight sound is the first thing that grabbed me when I moved up from a Music Hall DAC 25.3 to the Cary years ago.

I've also experienced that lean Oppo sound in two different Oppo DVD players that were fine for movies but sounded very lean on CDs.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 17:25:45
Terry P
 Thanks Jim!

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 17:33:55
Terry P
 Thanks! Your review of reviews helps confirm what I thought from what I've read. As we always say, it's best to listen to the equipment, but these days it's more difficult than ever and I hate to jerk around the manufacturer/distributor by auditioning and returning it. I like to narrow the field first and you're helping me do it.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 17:37:38
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015
 Hey also you get a trial period. I think it only 15 days but this thing sounded great right out of the box. Better as time went on. You can always return it for a little fee. I leave all my equipment on: Mac, DAC, AMPS. Huge difference. And no real change in power bill. My electricity is only like $45 leaving the two amps, DAC and computer on 24/7.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 18:43:14
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Yeah I think you got the same impressions that I got. Totally get not wanting to return things, but really man that is the game. Companies WANT you to audition their gear. So IMHO don't let that stop you from trying things as long as you can return things.

Maybe it is outside your budget but if not you might want to check out the border patrol dac. I think that has the signature you are looking for and of course in that range is the Ares 2. Also what about the Chord Mojo? Theirs is a unique solution that might be more the sound you are looking for.

Really interested to see what you get!

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 18:47:33
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Yo dude nice setup. Mags rock! If you want to play around and potentially improve things pretty dramatically try replacing those cables with runs of 24g magnet wire. Cost less that $10 and I bet you will be pretty impressed.

I know, just try it.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 7, 2021 at 18:48:10
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 You might also investigate the Schiit Yggdrasil GS, for $1600.

https://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil-gs

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 M, posted on January 8, 2021 at 04:31:45
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I use a 45 SET amp and a Sachs 6SN7 Tube Pre-amp with my Oris Horns. I also use and prefer the Topping D90 DAC over all of the other DACs I've tried over the years. No 'Harsh Digital Sound' in my System at all. Quite the Contrary.

Since you've narrowed your choice down to two DACs, I would order both of them. Order a D90 from Apos first (You get 30 Days), then order the Schitt (You only get 15 Days) and decide for yourself. You Can return the D90 free of charge. The Schitt may charge 15%...

If you don't do this, you'll always be wondering....



 

Schiit's restocking fee , posted on January 8, 2021 at 06:54:36
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 ... is 5% on their higher end items like this one. The exact figure for an item shows at the bottom of their "Descrsiption" page for the unit.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 07:59:28
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 I totally agree that the Border Patrol might be exactly what he is looking for.


"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 08:20:53
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Good point about your electric bill. My 3.2 GHz 6-Core Intel i7 MacMini draws less than 15-Watts sitting idle and my DAC draws even less. I leave them ON 24/7.... which makes me wonder why some folks are constantly powering their systems ON and OFF. I turn OFF my integrated amp when not is use as it draws about 75-Watts sitting idle.

BTW, what TV is that on your wall? Size? Age? I may be looking for a flat screen TV in the next month or so.




 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 11:24:14
Aaron 01
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Location: Golden Colorado
Joined: July 18, 2004
 I have been using a Gungnir multibit for just over 2 years now, which says something as I get dissatisfied with digital more than any other component.

Yes I think it is very organic, also linear and neutral. It sounds very natural and analog, but not at all gooey and syrupy. Take for instance some of the Led Zeppelin remasters that can be a bit edgy, it doesn't cover it up, but the Gumby also doesn't sound edgy by nature. It also has instruments in a good space by themselves along with good detail.

I have never heard the Topping so I can't compare,but I do think for the money the Gumby is very good.

Abe if you ever want to compare it to your Topping just let me know as you are close by.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 11:37:18
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015
 Just a TCL 56". Works just fine. Very inexpensive about a year old. Have my MacBook Pro Retina displayed to it and use Insomnia X so I can close the lid and not have the Mac go to sleep.

 

Border Patrol, posted on January 8, 2021 at 11:50:14
marc g.
Audiophile

Posts: 3330
Location: New Orleans
Joined: October 14, 1999
 "I totally agree that the Border Patrol might be exactly what he is looking for."

Would that be because of the NOS nature of the design?

voolston - audiophile by day, music lover by night!

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 12:04:44
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015
 Other than Preamp I have the core locked down. Next is on to cables. Don't have the budget I had on previous stereo. But I love where I am at. Thanks.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 13:48:18
Terry P
 Thanks for the feedback!

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 13:57:50
Terry P
 Thanks for the heads up on leaving the power on. A DAC won't use very much power which iwould allow me to possibly leave it on. Our electricity is very expensive here. We hit 48 cents a kilowatt-hour at 300 kW-hr usage per month. When I had my Plinius in use I left it on 24x7 and not just in standby mode because it sounded so much better that way. I discovered that tip in an article by one of the TAS guys.

Back then it cost me an extra $20 per month. Now it would be $34 extra per month. For a single component.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 14:13:11
Terry P
 Thanks for the Border Patrol mention. I didn't know about them. Hi-rez, including 192k, is what got me into streaming. I'm locked into Qobuz hi-rez for another year and the BP doesn't do 192k.

Also, the BP DAC sounds great but I wonder if it could be too much of a good thing. My integrated amp is a Cary SLI-80 Signature. I've tube rolled to NOS tubes which provided more detail than the stock E-H tubes because I found that I wanted a better top end and more detail. I did the same for the DAC and my phono amp for the same reason.

I hate digital glare and edgey sound but with my system I need to ensure I don't make the sound too lush.

 

RE: Border Patrol, posted on January 8, 2021 at 14:19:58
Terry P
 I had a non-over sampling CD player years ago because I thought it sounded so much better. My ideal DAC would have defeatable over-sampling.

 

RE: Border Patrol, posted on January 8, 2021 at 15:07:43
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 Yes, it is NOS as are the other DACs I have own and liked, but I am not an engineering, so won't say it is because or only because it has a NOS typology. It also has a tube rectified power supply and was designed by one of the most creative and respected designers in the tube audio world. Exactly what contributes to its sound in what ways and to what degrees is perhaps unknowable. What I can say is that as a music lover first and audio enthusiast second, in my system, I hear what the original poster seems to be looking for.

The system (headphone only). FLAC files on Roon nucleus to Windows 10 PC laptop as Roon endpoint to the Border Patrol DAC SEi via USB to Monolith Liquid Platinum headphone amp to Audeze LCD-X cans. I like it so much, I am tempted to get another one for one of my speaker-based systems.

That's my two cents, given freely and worth what you paid for it.




"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

I have owned both the Gungnir MB and the Topping D90, posted on January 8, 2021 at 16:55:27
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 I'm using the latter at the moment. My D90 isn't the MQA since I don't need that facility.

Objectively the D90 can be had with MQA which the Gungnir MB cannot. Also the D90 can also act as a preamp .

I haven't listened to the Gungnir in a couple of year but I always enjoyed it. However I purchased a different Topping, the DX7s, which I found at least as good in all respects as the Gungnir and 1/3 the price. I sold the Gungnir and pocketed a substantial differential.



Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 8, 2021 at 17:14:45
blake
Audiophile

Posts: 803
Joined: May 25, 2000
 I'm a very late conversion to digital/streaming and bought a Topping E30 a couple of months ago as my entry point, using Amazon Music HD running from a Windows laptop via USB. Very basic setup.

I run the E30 off a battery powerbank-I never even attempted to feed it from the laptop but originally used a quite inexpensive Chinese Linear Power Supply before trying the battery power bank when someone suggested it. To my ears, the powerbank sounds quite a bit better than the LPS but I admit fully that a LPS that sells for $75 may well not perform as well as something in the $250-$500 range.

In any event, the D90 should not require any outboard power supply or powerbank, but my point is that the E30 sounds very good. It is detailed, as Abe has made out the D90 to be (I know he owns the E30 as well) but is reasonably full bodied and not thin, at least not from my perspective.

One thing that I have noticed is that the filters on the AKM based dacs (like the E30 and D90) get very little mention apart from most reviewers suggesting that they do not hear much difference between filters. I admit fully that when I acquired the E30 and had it in the first week or two and cycled through the filters while playing that I could hear very little difference between them. I'm still not sure that I could in terms of trying to identify them while quickly switching through them now.

But what I have found after owning the DAC for a few months and listening extensively to one filter (Filter #4) and then switching over to the other filters, particularly Filter #5 which is a "super slow rolloff" filter, is that Filter 5 is probably the most "analog" sounding of the filters. It may sacrifice some detail, but it also has has a slightly more euphonic and slightly rolled off sound (more noticeable with 16/44 material-I make sure that I never upsample with the E30 in Amazon HD-that is another slightly long story).

Ironically (or maybe not so ironically lol), Filter 5 on the AKM chip is probably considered to be the worst, or certainly one of the worst, with digital purists who analyze this filter, as it seems to have more IM distortion than the other filters. It does, however, reproduce a square wave almost perfectly and much better than the other filters, which puts it very much in line with NOS or R2R/ladder dacs apparently.

My limited understanding of these filters is that they function (or perhaps don't function) in two areas: time and frequency response. And that ultimately they are a compromise; ie. they all function better in one domain than they do in the other so it is a bit of a choose your poison kind of thing.

I've come to the conclusion that my subjective listening preferences err more to better performance in the time domain (ie. ringing or lack of ringing) than they do to better performance in the frequency response area, and supposedly the limitations in the frequency response characteristics of these filter become less an issue as the bit and sampling rate are increased. But I'm not a real technical guy so don't take my word for that haha!

In any event, the filter options on the AKM based Topping Dacs are something to consider in terms of tailoring its performance and perhaps making it more analog like, specifically with the #5 filter-I believe the #3 default filter is perhaps the most 'digital" filter although it supposedly measures exceedingly well.

A crazy, or maybe not so crazy, idea might be for you to pick up an E30 on the cheap and experiment with it (use a powerbank) and then resell it for a $30-$40 loss to see if the Topping thing might be worthwhile for uou as I would anticipate that the D90 should certainly outperform the E30.

I actually have no desire to upgrade from the E30 and I can listen to it for hours without fatigue. It is not as good as my turntable with very good all analog recordings (it is listed in inmates systems) but as a value proposition it is off the charts and still sounds very good to me.

And I'm pretty sensitive to nasty digital sound.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 M, posted on January 8, 2021 at 17:41:43
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I've also experienced that lean Oppo sound in two different Oppo DVD players that were fine for movies but sounded very lean on CDs.

I use a 103 in the HT and find the same to be true. I believe it's the op amps. Similarly, I use a Music Hall DAC 25.3 in the garage and enjoy the improvement in resolution by replacing the OPA2604/OPA2134s with discrete FETs from Burson Audio.

Note the D90 uses OPA1612s. They are said to be the best of the litter, but I'm just not a fan of op amp leanness given their need for boatloads of corrective feedback. In the main system, I use an Audio Research DAC8 that uses JFETs in a class A, zero feedback approach.

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 M, posted on January 8, 2021 at 18:45:20
Terry P
 Thanks for the info re yourDAC8 JFETS in Class A,with zero feedback. I think thats what Schiit does on the Gungnir and the Yggy.

 

RE: Border Patrol, posted on January 8, 2021 at 20:33:03
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Cool man. I have the Liquid Platinum too and music is all flac but way different playback. Have some Monolith M1060c that I modded and made open back and listen balanced on the Platinum. But these days the cans are Ultrasone Edition 11 and Signature Pro which sadly are single ended though the Edition 11 can be run balanced if I can find the connectors to make a cable. So I am running the Platinum single ended...still sounds great.

I may end up with the border patrol at some point so its great to know its a keeper for you with the platinum.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 9, 2021 at 19:21:24
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 My bad. I am stuck with no hires ever. So its a blindspot that people actually listen to hires

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Choice for new DAC: Schiit Gungir Multibit vs. Topping D90 MQA, posted on January 10, 2021 at 09:52:22
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I've heard good things about TCL. A couple others on the Asylum have them including RodM the man who runs this website.




 

Paper towels as acoustic treatment?, posted on January 11, 2021 at 23:23:20
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 If not, well, never mind... :-)

 

RE: Paper towels as acoustic treatment?, posted on January 12, 2021 at 18:07:10
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015
 Yes suede acoustic treatment. The paper towels work. I needed to fill the cabinet with something as I cannot move it. They do help as I have a very bright room and I will add more and probably cover the front with cloth so I am not staring at paper towels but they do work. I need to ad a rug and do whatever else I can. I am pretty much at a near field listening position. Also the rear wave of the Maggies on both sides goes into a hallway so I am not bombarded with that. :)

 

RE: Paper towels as acoustic treatment?, posted on January 12, 2021 at 20:01:48
Terry P
 I'm leaning toward selecting the Yggy based on the Analog 2 boards. From everything I've read it seems that Class A JFET output would be a significant contributor to the sound I seek.

What do you think? I really appreciate your input regarding the Gungnir Multibit! It would be my choice if not for the improvements of the Analog 2 boards on the Yggy. (From my reading perceptions).

I also have a bright, reflective room. A marble fireplace between the speakers (ugh!).

 

RE: Paper towels as acoustic treatment?, posted on January 12, 2021 at 20:31:06
Jimbocky
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: High Rockies
Joined: September 15, 2015



Call Schiit. I struggled over that one. I would have to go back thru my photos of "The Show" in Newport, CA when I hear what I think was the Yggy.

My system is downsized from Levinson stuff and what would be the equivalent of JM Lab or Wilson speakers.

I read that one of the two Schiit guys prefer the Multi-Bit to the Yggy. That was what made my decision.

This multi-bit is awesome. So natural. I am running Audirvana out of a Mac. With upsampling ant feel's so natural. Space, decay, and dynamics.

Just upgraded power cables and wish I had gotten one for the DAC. Ordering now.

Considering my past system I could;dn't be happier with the direction I have gone. Schiit makes some great stuff.

 

I was making a teenage joke..., posted on January 12, 2021 at 21:30:45
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 ...and the paper towels fit perfectly in that cavernous space. That's a frugal tweak, for sure. Just guard them when the unrest rears its ugly head again. They could be worth their weight in gold!

 

High resolution, posted on February 26, 2021 at 23:15:58
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 1455
Joined: March 4, 2002
 I was just comparing CDs with the IFI SPDIF purifier2 to hi-res to some extent. I find that only 24/192 may really be better than CD. Most of the Qobuz hi res I hear is 24/44.1 (which sounds better than CD) or 24/96. But once you re-clock, I may prefer CD quality vs non-reclocked "hi-res".
In other words, I think that the re-clocking of this caliber is more important that the resolution.
Also, I don't listen to delta-sigma DACs, I could never stand them (except for a Macintosh I once heard at a show).
And the idea that NOS DACs are more immune to jitter, I now find to be of low value (they need re-clockers).

 

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