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Jason Victor Serenius: The MQA Shilling Mind Reader!

173.193.202.116
Posted on June 9, 2017 at 18:35:46
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Jason Victor Serenius: The MQA Shilling Mind Reader!

L.A. Audio Show Report:

"How to conduct a successful MQA demo when the person requesting same already has made up their mind? That question, or some variation thereof, must have run through the mind of Meridian's SW regional sales manager, Courtney Careccia, when the sole attendee (besides me) in her room on a slow Sunday asked for a non-MQA/MQA comparison on her all-Meridian system. After no more than 45 seconds-it could have been less, but certainly not more-the man asked to switch to the MQA version, listened for a much shorter time, stood up, declared the whole thing was a sham, and marched out the door. It was almost as if the comparison had never happened.

Just the day before, when John Atkinson and I shared breakfast with Bob Stuart of MQA, Bob had told us, "No A/B demo can be done effectively in 45 seconds, or against prejudice, or on the basis of one trial. Frankly, it makes it a non-event."

The power to read minds! Wow! I wonder if he wiped Bob Stuarts mouth for him at breakfast too.

Short comparisons are EXACTLY what all manufacturers do when they conduct A/B demos for power cords, tweaks, room treatments, and other products, and Stereophile GLADLY reports those results!!!!!

 

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Thanks, I feel safer already., posted on June 9, 2017 at 19:13:01
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Hi-Fi is a Scam put upon us by millionaires.
Wealthy Millionaires.

 

The MQA demo I heard on Sunday, posted on June 10, 2017 at 05:58:35
Peter Breuninger
Reviewer

Posts: 601
Joined: August 28, 2002
 I heard a demo on Sunday by Peter McGrath. The loudspeakers were the outstanding Wilson Alexx and I believe the amplifier was a T&A integrated. I did not know what DAC was in the system. I was in between filming and needed a rest. I did not want to upset the demo by interrupting and asking system questions. The room had about 15 people in it. I took a seat in the second row slightly to the right of center. I did not know I was about to have an actual MQA'd file to same file *without MQA* demo comparison. Result: I had no expectation bias.

Peter played an older South American (mixed instrument) recording saying "this is the original file". It sound flat and two dimensional and frankly non involving. It was about a 45 seconds to one minute in length. Next he announced the he was going to play the same file but with the MQA process applied.

I was astounded. The soundstage exploded, all upper frequency brittleness dissipated, the players became far more realistic and 3D and I simply enjoyed the music more. I left the room in awe.

As I reflect on the experience I believe the demo could have been more effective if: 1)the first track played was announced as the 24/96 or whatever resolution original, 2)then a second track could have been played at 16/44.1, and 3)then a third track at 16/44.1 with the MQA process applied and fully decoded.

This would have been a very powerful demo. From all I have read about MQA, this is its full potential: to encode the original high resolution file, stream or hard media store it at a lower rez and then decode at playback so as to simulate as close as possible the highest original resolution recording.

 

RE: Jason Victor Serenius: The MQA Shilling Mind Reader!, posted on June 10, 2017 at 12:14:12
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 I believe the term you were looking for is "Clairvoyant" and not "Mind Reader". A clairvoyant is able to see into the future, as apparently happened at the mentioned breakfast.

As always, strictly my own personal opinion an not necessarily that of my employer or Santa's elves.

 

RE: Jason Victor Serenius: The MQA Shilling Mind Reader!, posted on June 11, 2017 at 23:56:38
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing- Isaak. I concur w/ Bob about short bursts of timed demo music/passages. I do not like them neither.

I do enjoy JVS' writings, he has a very fine ear and quite a Reference system at home.

 

RE: Thanks, I feel safer already., posted on June 9, 2017 at 19:31:52
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 go back to,your nap.

 

LOL! , posted on June 9, 2017 at 22:17:08
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 Thanks.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

What I've learned today from Isaak, posted on June 12, 2017 at 14:03:18
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2794
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 1. Audio companies are out to make money
2. Subjective reviews are, well, subjective.

13DoW

 

! , posted on June 10, 2017 at 06:33:20
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

RE: The MQA demo I heard on Sunday, posted on June 10, 2017 at 06:26:40
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Peter, thank you for your detailed, well worded, and informative post.

It seems McGrath did not get JVS's and Stuart's memo on 45 second demos clips. If he was in the room I am sure he would declare that 45 seconds was more than enough, since you liked what you heard.

I am not surprised you preferred the MQA. I have found his recordings to be exactly as you described, flat, boring, and uninvolving.

Appreciate your feedback.

 

"Result: I had no expectation bias."....., posted on June 10, 2017 at 08:42:34
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12360
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...If you were informed that you were about to hear an "MQAed" version of the recording and as an industry professional, you are fully aware of the claimed SQ improvements MQA is supposed to provide, how could there not be expectation bias?

 

45 seconds and you were "astounded" and "in awe" ? C'mon, Peter. nt , posted on June 10, 2017 at 11:31:11
Rick W
 nt

 

To the degree that MQA changes the sound..., posted on June 10, 2017 at 11:56:19
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 To the degree that MQA changes the sound of an existing digital file only depends on two things - the digital filters used and the dither algorithm used. Both of these have direct audible consequences on digital replay.

Assuming that the same D/A converter was used to replay both files (anything else would make for a completely invalid comparison), the only valid conclusion reached is that you preferred the sound of the MQA digital filter to the "standard" digital filter in the D/A converter used.

This does not surprise me, as MQA's digital filter hews very closely to the principles used in Ayre's digital filters since 2009 (see link below). And there is more than one way to skin a cat. JA was extremely impressed with the sound of the digital filter in his recent review of the Chord DAVE, which takes a diametrically opposite approach to that used by MQA and Ayre.

The bottom line is that it does not require a closed, proprietary solution with mandatory royalty fees to employ better sounding digital filters, either in the D/A converter (or the A/D converter, which MQA does *not* address). Designers have been creating custom digital filters with improved sonic performance since the late 1980s, starting with Wadia and Theta.

As always, strictly my own opinion and not necessarily those of my employer or clone.

 

RE: "Result: I had no expectation bias."....., posted on June 10, 2017 at 09:45:38
Peter Breuninger
Reviewer

Posts: 601
Joined: August 28, 2002
 Re-read my post. I am very clear on the timeline.

 

"Next he announced"....., posted on June 10, 2017 at 10:32:22
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12360
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 "Next he announced the he was going to play the same file but with the MQA process applied.

I was astounded......."

Seems pretty clear to me you were informed as to what you were about to hear before you actually heard it. IOW, expectations.

 

Last paragraph says it all NT, posted on June 10, 2017 at 12:56:21
lancelot
Audiophile

Posts: 1722
Joined: March 23, 2001
 NT

 

You're boring me to death ..., posted on June 11, 2017 at 13:08:24
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Where the magic? ... as as for boring me to death ...

The bottom line is that it does not require a closed, proprietary solution with mandatory royalty fees to employ better sounding digital filters, either in the D/A converter (or the A/D converter, which MQA does *not* address). Designers have been creating custom digital filters with improved sonic performance since the late 1980s, starting with Wadia and Theta.

Yeah!, we talked about these filters extensively, right here, back in 2009 ...Yawn

--

Look man, MQA reaches into the past, sniffs out the brick wall ills, adjusts for the over medicated knob twirlers, fixes time smear by going back and doing it right!

It's a passing *gift* to millennials from the top minds, the pick of the crop, of your generation!




 

RE: Jason Victor Serenius: The MQA Shilling Mind Reader!, posted on June 10, 2017 at 14:47:15
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016

Indeed more appropriate....

 

RE: You're boring me to death ..., posted on June 11, 2017 at 23:53:38
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 very nice- bjh.

 

RE: Thanks, I feel safer already., posted on June 13, 2017 at 03:15:08
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Wealthy Millionaires."

As opposed to impoverished millionaires.......

 

RE: The MQA demo I heard on Sunday, posted on June 13, 2017 at 03:20:42
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Peter played an older South American (mixed instrument) recording saying 'this is the original file'. It sound flat and two dimensional and frankly non involving. It was about a 45 seconds to one minute in length. Next he announced the he was going to play the same file but with the MQA process applied."

I wouldn't be able to determine whether the sound of an unfamiliar recording was good or bad with a clip that short in duration. Unless it was flat-out horrid......

The biggest issue I have with all digital audio playback is "listener fatigue"..... It would take me at least fifteen minutes to determine whether it performed well in that regard. (And if it performs poorly, I'd need another 15 minutes to recover before listening to anything after that.)

 

And........, posted on June 13, 2017 at 03:40:20
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 If two digital audio clips of the same music sound demonstrably different for a duration of less than 3 minutes, I believe there is something being compromised in the poorer sounding clip. Or enhanced in the better sounding clip. Outside the scope of the conversion itself. (Unless there is a huge disparity in the bitrates.) The difference could simply be one of the clips being louder in amplitude. (People tend to prefer the louder clip.)

I conducted a native CD quality WAV versus an MP3-converted WAV (same playback bitrate) comparison, and some of the people claimed they couldn't tell the difference. (Most people who chose one they thought sounded better picked the MP3-converted WAV.)

 

Most audio reviewers have other expectation bias as well, posted on June 13, 2017 at 06:54:33
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...an expectation by industry insiders that they will have nothing but praise for any new technology or product. No praise, no more ad revenue for your audio rag! Or no more review samples to play with for those part time hobby reviewers who are not paid.

When has complete transparency in reviews ever been the case in this conflict of interest infested audio niche that corrupts ? Come on, some of these guys don't have a clue what I'm talking about because it all seems so normal to them.

 

In other words: "that reverb tank sounded real good" -t, posted on June 13, 2017 at 10:30:37
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

I don't know- 45 seconds into Good Bait ( Soul Trane ), posted on June 13, 2017 at 12:12:39
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 and I'm astounded.
Maybe sooner!

 

What's MQA?, posted on June 13, 2017 at 17:21:43
howard
Audiophile

Posts: 2951
Location: No. California
Joined: December 31, 1999
 I've been out of audio for awhile.

 

RE: What's MQA?, posted on June 13, 2017 at 17:24:00
howard
Audiophile

Posts: 2951
Location: No. California
Joined: December 31, 1999
 Disregard.

 

Hmm, point taken. nt, posted on June 13, 2017 at 17:38:45
Rick W
 nt

 

MQAis... , posted on June 13, 2017 at 19:31:24
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Isaak J. Garvey's reason for living! :-)

"Never a day without a post about MQA"






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Hmm, point taken. nt, posted on June 13, 2017 at 19:32:35
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Check this response to one of the MQA reports...

From poster rt66indierock in the comments section. Interesting.

"From the second floor at LAAS
Submitted by rt66indierock on June 12, 2017 - 6:02pm

Bob Stuart told me HDTracks will start selling MQA downloads this summer and that MQA plugins for Pro Tools is freely available.

Universal Music Group has 8,000 to 10,000 high resolution albums and has not converted any of them to MQA.

Sony has 4,500 high resolutions albums bumps the number to 7,000 if you count singles and has not converted any to MQA.

Warner Music group has 7,670 high resolution albums. 3,900 are 24/44.1 for the Mastered for iTunes program. Until April MQA did the conversions. In April Warner completed training for the conversion process including imbedding keys in the files (sorry Jason). Apple is not sitting on a treasure trove of hi-res files at least from Warner (sorry John). The number of albums from Warner that have been converted to MQA is a little over 3,000.

According to the Digital Entertainment Group the market for high resolution streaming is 12 million people. A number not growing as streaming numbers increase.

So where is MQA now? Once a few downloads are available from HDTracks I could write an article about my findings Stereophile would have no trouble publishing. I doubt my conclusions would differ from what Kal Rubinson wrote and what John Atkinson reported in his test of MQA files. But that doesn't make the case for MQA. How big a deal is HDTracks streaming MQA? Unlikely to provide enough royalties to matter. There just isn't enough music to stream or sell.

It makes you wonder why the ultimate controlling party of MQA Ltd, Reinet Investments SCA pumped money into it, a retail turnaround specialist pumped money into 7 Digital to launch HDTracks streaming service and Jay Z bought TIDAL. The only way this is going to work is for MQA to be streamed to mobile devices."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-laas#SpPfMDbfEpbTPSgT.99

 

No good deed goes unpunished. (nt), posted on June 13, 2017 at 19:33:37
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 nt

 

RE: I don't know- 45 seconds into Good Bait ( Soul Trane ), posted on June 13, 2017 at 19:38:59
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 ...Look...no jaws dropped..no socks blown off!


"It's a crazy mixed up world

Submitted by 2_channel_ears on June 11, 2017 - 11:55am

How many of these demos have consisted of a true A/B comparison of same folded and unfolded resolution? I don't see any cited above and I found only 1/2 of a demo between RMAF and AXPONA. That was Mytek flipping MQA in and out "on the fly" that I think was legit.

Yes, I have heard a benefit, but I'd hardly call it, or any other listening I've gotten to do, "palpable" as JA put it --including hearing MQA on a $90k MSB based system. MQA, and by extension the industry, has failed to provide an honest comparison of the technology. For me, that amounts to "wait and see"."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-laas#SpPfMDbfEpbTPSgT.99

I guess JVS would have a hissy fit at Mytek and Peter McGrath for 45 second samples and flipping MQA in and out....

 

Yes, they most probably do have other biases...not that there's anything wrong with that...., posted on June 14, 2017 at 10:27:10
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12360
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...but declaring there was no expectation bias under the circumstances described strains credibility to the limit.

 

Heard MQA? nt, posted on June 14, 2017 at 11:06:56
Rick W
 nt

 

Latest "format', posted on June 15, 2017 at 10:40:27
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 For lack of a better descriptor.
Not to worry.. It will either survive and prosper IF the masses (as opposed to inmates 'here') buy into it.
Or die out... soon enough.

Best to wait a couple or 3 years before even considering it.

 

Sounds like someone literally fell into the jar. nt, posted on June 15, 2017 at 14:00:40
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

At which time, posted on June 15, 2017 at 15:54:39
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Best to wait a couple or 3 years before even considering it.

It's raison d'etre for minimizing bandwidth will likely be irrelevant. :)

 

RE: At which time, posted on June 15, 2017 at 18:09:03
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 "It's raison d'etre for minimizing bandwidth will likely be irrelevant. :)"

No..actually. They have moved on from that already. That is so early 2016.

-When this vaporware first appeared, it was floated as a way for you, the dear consumer, to get "Authenticated" audio, "signed off" by artist/producer/engineer. Well that was a joke. If you read my linked document which outlined MQA's plan, they wanted to penetrate recording and production studios. No one bit.

-Then they floated the notion of saving bandwidth, which many have pointed out, is absurd, as one can stream a 1080p HD movie to any modern device with no issues

-NOW..they have moved into the "it sounds better" thing...you know..the "de-blurring"...and a brigade of hand picked, well trained PR people, er, "journalists" have been hard at work letting you know how much better it sounds.

 

The Back-n-Forth Sniping..., posted on June 19, 2017 at 15:45:14
howard
Audiophile

Posts: 2951
Location: No. California
Joined: December 31, 1999
 makes me feel at home.I really missed it.

 

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