Critic's Corner

Discuss a review. Provide constructive feedback. Talk to the industry.

Return to Critic's Corner

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Alta Audio Adam

72.224.232.198
Posted on February 8, 2023 at 09:27:37
mark.korda@myfairpoint.net
Audiophile

Posts: 1253
Location: Maine
Joined: August 16, 2011
 Hi, Rogier Van Bakel reviewed the 17 or 18 thousand dollar loudspeaker the Alta Audio Adam.I thought he did a great job. He told the truth. For that kind of money you would expect a very high build quality and maybe a closer inspection before sending the speaker out for a major review.This is about the bottom spike.
Look at John Atkins measured frequency response. It looks like a roller coaster ride.The builder seemed ok with that and gave some radical explanations for why?
At the end of the Stereophile in the manufacturers comments Micheal Levy thanks Roger for his fine review.I do too.I learned a lot but did not know how to read his final statement ....These are the speakers I'd consider if I had 20 grand burning a hole in my pocket.I don't know if that was just being polite or you tell me?...Thanks Mark Korda

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
In the same issue, at under half the price . . ., posted on February 8, 2023 at 13:34:48
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 . . . the KEF LS60 wireless outperforms it in just about EVERY measurable (and audible) parameter. AND it includes built-in amplification, with DSP-based EQ to adjust the bass response for various room positions and protect the woofers from overload. AND it comes from a well-established manufacturer who will likely be around to offer warranty/tech support into the foreseeable future. Maybe it won't play quite as loud, quite as low, but that's why we have subwoofers, as the reviewer indicated.

Alta appears to be one of those small "eccentric" manufacturers who focus on certain design gimmicks (in this case, the poorly-realized quasi-TL loading of both woofers and midrange drivers) at the expense of overall performance, and is apparently somewhat contemptuous of established principles and goals of speaker engineering, such as neutral frequency response and low distortion. And maybe this results in certain sonic quirks that some listeners will find pleasing, at least initially. Whatever. There's a place for everything -- let the customer decide AFTER extended auditioning. I personally prefer accuracy to the source, and on that basis would rather audition the KEFs.

 

Gebn mir a brekhn., posted on February 8, 2023 at 16:39:50
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Or, Gib mir ein brechen.

Or, give me a break.

Wireless?

Yeah, sure.

And what is the diameter of the KEF's DSP bottleneck? And what is the jitter number?

Oy.

If somebody has spent $10,000 and up for a DAC, why does she want a digital bottleneck inside the loudspeaker?

KEF uses its corporate piggy bank to make sound that is... OK; but almost always: cost-compromised.

I have not heard the Alta Adam. But that tweeter is, unless I am mistaken, a Fountek NeoCD2.0, a driver I am familiar with. In the US, it costs about $160 each.

Fountek's NeoCD3.0 is found, with a waveguide by Falcon Acoustics, in Falcon's $27,000 "statement" loudspeaker.

So, two NeoCD2.0s cost the loudspeaker builder $320 plus shipping, and you multiply that by 500% to cost out the product at retail, and the tweeter part of the retail load is at least $1600.

The KEF stuff that Amazon ships out by the container-load is great bang for the buck, but... the people who spend the money for much better tweeters are not fooling themselves.

It's the people who believe that sound doesn't get any better than what KEF sells for $1600 who are fooling themselves.

Now, not having heard the speaker itself, I can't speak for the implementation, but the raw materials are unquestionably there.

OF COURSE, speaking only for myself.

ciao,

john

 

Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 8, 2023 at 19:42:57
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 There are definitely some strange ideas going into the Alta speakers. And most of the reviews have been, in my opinion, perhaps too kind.

We couldn't be that kind when we reviewed a pair -- both for the sound and for the build quality. Let's face it, at these prices, the speakers should at least be built to a certain standard -- and they're not. The sound, well, people can fall back on the whole "subjective" part. On the other hand, Jeff Fritz didn't have trouble hearing "problems" -- and problems there are.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 8, 2023 at 21:18:01
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I had a good opportunity to hear these speakers along with many of my friends and the general consensus was negative, more like Joh Atkinson's measurements than the subjective review.

It does help to recall though that speakers are often very personal in taste and that the reviewer doesn't get to see Atkinson's test results before the subjective review is done. Just an explanation, perhaps, between the dichotomy between the review and the tests.

 

RE: Gebn mir a brekhn., posted on February 8, 2023 at 21:20:18
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Great drivers are important but given the choice between great drivers and a good crossover versus good drivers and a great crossover I'd choose the latter.

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 05:51:32
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 It's 100% true that it's important to not view the measurements before listening. On the other hand, at least in the model Jeff Fritz had, he said it was quite obvious something's wrong in the bass. I've heard these speakers at shows and they've never impressed. Maybe they'll be at the Florida show I'll be at in a week. I'll try to listen again. But I think creating an undamped transmission line isn't a good idea -- ever.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 06:41:48
jamesgarvin
Audiophile

Posts: 5011
Location: southern ohio
Joined: July 9, 2004
 I was very impressed with the Adam listening to Keb Mo at Axpona 2022, with Rogers amplification. Many "professional" show reports were very complimentary as well. Obviously, not as definitive as listening in our own rooms for an extended period of time. Likewise, most systems at shows are similarly hobbled, and I felt it acquitted itself well in comparison to other speakers. I can't really speak to the build quality, as I did not examine them that closely. And just a point of clarification - I think your comment is a bit broad as to Jeff Fritz's comments regarding "the bass." His issues appeared to have been in the mid/upper bass, not the lower bass. And while it may or may not make a difference, he reviewed a different model than did Stereophile and the Adam I listened to at Axpona.

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 07:51:32
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 So what happened with the second review pair?







Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 09:12:51
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I saw the Stereophile measurements after I heard the speakers. And the same was true for all my friends.

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 9, 2023 at 16:37:22
Ladok
Audiophile

Posts: 171
Joined: November 21, 2001
 This certainly isn't the first time the subjective reviewer and John Atkinson's measurements are at odds when it comes to speakers. In fact, it seems to happen quite often. How many times has Atkinson concluded that he was "bothered" or "concerned" about a resonance or some other measured anomaly, to the point where he dismissed the speaker's engineering outright. And yet the reviewer does not comment on any negative effect on the sound, and ends up loving the speaker. I'm not dismissing Atkinson's measurement protocol, I find it very interesting and informative. But obviously, when it comes to speakers, we're not measuring everything that really matters, or perhaps measuring some of the wrong things.

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 19:42:27
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 There wasn't a better outcome.

Doug Schneider

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 19:53:35
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 There's no doubt that speakers with tremendous colorations can sound "fine" or "different" or even "impressive" as you change the music around. But that's why you need a wide variety of music to see if you excite certain things, bring out certain sounds (i.e., resonances, etc.).

As for the "bass" comment -- the mid and upper bass are all part of the bass. That speaker he had really didn't have low, low bass -- i.e., the bottom octave -- but few speakers actually do go that low. So, yes, he had concerns about the bass.

Doug

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 9, 2023 at 21:55:00
jamesgarvin
Audiophile

Posts: 5011
Location: southern ohio
Joined: July 9, 2004
 At the risk of beating a dead horse, he wrote in his conclusion, after briefly discussing the speakers' reproduction of the specific frequency ranges, "the issue was in the midbass," and "Alta Audio has fulfilled the promised they made with their XTL bass loading," which I presume reflected his statement in the body of his review that "A positive for the Alecs was bass depth: the Altas did play lower in frequency and with more output in the very lowest registers." I don't know what he meant by "the very lowest registers," but I have an idea.

So, again, I think simply using the word "bass" implies an issue with the entire bass range, whereas I think Mr. Fritz's issue with the speaker, as he wrote in his review, was with the midbass.

Every speaker has colorations to one degree or another. We are blessed with an excellent small jazz club in our mid-size midwestern city, and so I spend two to three evenings a month listening to live acoustic jazz from some of the genre's top performers, as well as the occasional acoustic rock music in another small club. Consequently, I can generally pick up tonal colorations in a speaker fairly quickly. I did not hear any significant tonal aberrations or colorations in the Adam listening to Keb Mo playing acoustic blues at Axpona. But I agree that hearing one piece of music at a show is not enough to make a definitive conclusion. I can only say that the Adam tonally accurate on that one piece of music. On that piece of music I did not hear any unnatural glare which passes as detail for many audiophiles. Based upon my experience at Axpona, were I in the market for a speaker, the Adam would be on my list to further explore. Where my explorations would lead, I cannot say.

By the way, at the risk of demonstrating my laziness, did Alta Audio send another sample?

 

Again-taking pot shots at Stereophile, posted on February 10, 2023 at 02:59:59
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 903
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 What are you trying to gain?

 

RE: Again-taking pot shots at Stereophile, posted on February 10, 2023 at 05:51:01
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Huh? I'm talking about Alta Audio speakers, thanks. They've been reviewed numerous places.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 10, 2023 at 05:58:50
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Well, like I said, there are some strange ideas in the ideas -- the strangest being choosing not to damp the internals of a transmission-line enclosure. People can decide for themselves if it works -- i.e., listen -- but it shows up problems in listening and measuring. Those upper bass resonances are exactly what you'd expect to hear.

About six months ago we published a video about transmission-line loading with Toby Ridley, one of the main acoustical engineers at PMC. He explains the concept behind TL loading.

Doug

 

One oft-quoted justification for a more-expensive driver is that the crossover can be less complex., posted on February 10, 2023 at 07:06:50
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 The linked-to 5" SB Acoustics Satori TeXtreme woofer-mid ($273.10/each), in its write-up, states:

"This unit features smooth frequency response and low inductance allowing for minimal effort in network design."

I was chatting with a loudspeaker-industry guy whose company OEMs the drivers for a nine-channel autosound system in a car costing more than $3 million, and he said one reason his coaxial tweeter-mid driver was chosen as the workhorse for that system was that the total crossover-parts count for tweeter and mid together was three parts; two capacitors and one coil.

BTW, as an old disciple of Bud Fried, I am not sticking up for an undamped transmission line; but I am saying that Alta Audio chose a very fine tweeter.

john

 

When a manufacturer states that "technically perfect speakers sound like crap" . . ., posted on February 10, 2023 at 14:45:00
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 . . . that raises some major red flags, at least for me. Along with many others, I have generally found that the more clean and linear the response, the more the speaker gets out of the way and lets the music through.

Technical "perfection" is of course an impossibility, but that does not negate it as a goal to strive toward. Many of the most competent designers in the industry have dreamed that impossible dream for decades, and have achieved some impressive results in linear on-axis response, smoothly declining off-axis response, and extremely low distortion of all types.

Of course, there will always be a few eccentric "designers" who prefer boomy uncontrolled port resonances, exaggerated treble, and wack-doodle response curves to an accurate tranduction of the input signal. And such "designs" may appeal to some listeners, who may find the exaggeration of certain frequencies and the suppression of others pleasing with certain musical styles or certain recordings. At least initially, before the novelty wears off and the sound becomes fatiguing or annoying.



 

Smooth frequency response and a well-controlled HF rolloff . . ., posted on February 10, 2023 at 15:56:16
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 . . . need not always correspond with more expensive. Back in the day, before Tymphany took over (and IMO ruined) Danish Sound Technologies, Vifa and Peerless offered a number of reasonably priced, excellent sounding poly-cone drivers with those characteristics. Their inductive impedance rise could be easily flattened with a Zobel, making first or second order lowpass filtration a breeze. Same story, at a step up in price, with many of the then-available drivers from Audax, Focal, Morel, and SEAS.

Conversely, some very expensive hard cone drivers (like the currently available SEAS magnesium and aluminum cones) ring like a fire alarm a little over an octave into their optimal stop band, making lowpass filtration a total bitch. You can use an ultra-steep elliptical filter like Joseph Audio, or aggressive notch filtration, to suppress the breakup peak(s), either way at the cost of considerably greater crossover complexity.

That Satori unit you linked to does look like a lovely driver, and should be way easy to work with. The Fountek ribbon should be a great match. Its on-axis response (see Vance Dickason's linked measurements) is a bit uneven, and in fact looks very much like JA's measurement of the Alta speaker's treble. The response blump between approx. 1 and 2kHz is an artifact of the shallow horn loading and can be suppressed in the crossover (probably around 4th order electrical, just to be safe), while higher up the response flattens out nicely at 30 degrees off axis. I'd be eager to read about your finished project using those drivers.

 

RE: Smooth frequency response and a well-controlled HF rolloff . . ., posted on February 10, 2023 at 19:49:49
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Indeed, ribbons can make nice high-frequency drivers, but they can make really poor upper-midrange drivers. It's all about the range it's used in.

We measure distortion and, over the years, I'd noticed that most ribbons distortion badly under 3kHz. Makes the sound hard and edgy. Some people confuse the sound with the speaker being more revealing, but it's not at all -- it's distortion.

In a three-way someone SHOULD be able to cross over high end. But it's an issue if not.

Doug

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam, posted on February 11, 2023 at 09:28:07
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8192
Joined: July 4, 2002
 IF the mic wasn't on the boundary / floor that notch is roughly the right place to be a floor bounce (cancellation notch due to a 2nd delayed path).

You can hear that compared to not, but any speaker with a woofer that high off the floor, in the same position would have that notch for the same reasons.

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 11, 2023 at 20:47:36
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Good point about damping a transmission line. In fact undamped transmission lines existed before transmission lines. They were called labyrinths. And when damping(long hair wool initially) was added to a labyrinth in the early 1960s it was called a transmission line.

At first the idea of a line sounds simple but there are problems with details. Folding lines causes resonances at the folds in classic designs. And in fact even a straight line also has resonances. This is why lines are often reduced in area as the line lengthens; it reduces the strength of the resonances. Adding damping makes the resonances less and by the way also increases the acoustic length of the line by reducing the speed of the wave lengths in the line.

 

RE: One oft-quoted justification for a more-expensive driver is that the crossover can be less complex., posted on February 11, 2023 at 20:52:16
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I basically agree but assuming but I'd still prefer a good driver and superior crossover. But it has to be a good, less expensive driver. A great crossover can't make up for even so so drivers and indeed given the cost of good crossovers would be a waste of money.

 

RE: Smooth frequency response and a well-controlled HF rolloff . . ., posted on February 11, 2023 at 21:02:51
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Wish it were so. I've rarely seen drivers without ringing that roll off where you want them. It's mainly the amount of ringing and how high ib frequency they ring. I will admit the Dynaco A25 driver seemed to be one good example as does the Madisound A26 woofer. And I recall listening to a Melos prototype speaker decades ago with a paper 8" Dynaudio driver where accidentally the crossover wasn't hooked up and it just sounded like a slightly dark speaker. But if you can find honest curves from good manufacturers I'd be surprised if you found anywhere even close to 1 in 20 non-ringing drivers.

And I recall falling in love with the SEAS 4.5" Nextel driver that had a beautiful curve. There's a later version with better magnet structure and edge coating to dampen cone resonances that Troels Graveson, A prolific and talented kit designer for those of you who don't know, prefers to the earlier version and it seems to be more resonant than the earlier version. Who knows?

 

When I went from one prototype cabinet size and woofer to the next iteration..., posted on February 12, 2023 at 06:41:03
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 When I went from one prototype cabinet size and woofer to the next iteration, I actually bumped the crossover point of the Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon (the shorter, 3-inch sibling of the larger one Alta uses) from 2,500Hz to 3,000Hz, because I loved the upper reaches of the wonderful Eton Kevlar trilaminate woofer.

I then took the woofer off the crossover and ran it "wild," directly connected to the amp.

For whatever you can glean from an iPhone video posted to YouTube, that is what the link is to.

And in any event you can be entranced by Kate St. John's sultry voice, declaiming verses by Tennyson, believe it or not!

john

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 12, 2023 at 08:50:53
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Very good points!

And from what we can see in the measurements (and listening), these resonances are exactly what one would expect from such a design -- and what most try to avoid.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

In the absence of any mention of exactly what that 'technically perfect speaker' might be..., posted on February 12, 2023 at 12:01:47
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 I'm afraid I can't comment.

But then perhaps I'd agree, depending on what speaker one feels is 'technically perfect'.

I've heard some very expensive and favorably reviewed speakers 'sound like crap', but no one suggested they were 'technically perfect'.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

OTOH, if you have cats..., posted on February 12, 2023 at 12:08:45
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 yer gonna want that woofer fairly high of the floor. :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Thanks, but I am using the "Old School" Fountek NeoCD3.0, not the more modern one Vance measured., posted on February 12, 2023 at 12:14:40
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Supposedly, the NeoCD3.0 is an "homage" to the old Decca ribbons.

The above is the graph from the factory data sheet. (Full .pdf at link)

It's a very nice smooth driver.

BTW, Rockport is supposedly making their own TPCD (Thin Ply Carbon Diaphragm) complete drivers, but I don't know if they are getting the cones from the audio division of Oxeon. The SB Satori is for the rest of us... and I do believe they get their cones from Sweden.

I must say that between the Satori TeXtreme woofers and Purifi's "Hair-Scrunchi" woofers, it's an exciting time to be messing around with loudspeaker design!

john

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 12, 2023 at 20:55:21
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 By the way, I've never seen it done but the man credited with the transmission line said the end could just as well be closed as well as open. I knew Bud Fried well and his comment was lines were open to use the extra bass of an open port, essentially like a port does in a reflex box. I wonder what would happen with a closed line with the total volume chosen for a tight closed box(I'm a big fan of low Q closed box bass).

The nearest thing to a closed line I know(albeit not really a closed line was the D'Appolito SEAS Thor kit where the line was stuffed enough it was just a pressure release but not a bass source, effectively a combination of a transmission line and a variovent(aperiodic). Perhaps that is an interesting line to explore.

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 13, 2023 at 08:46:34
mark.korda@myfairpoint.net
Audiophile

Posts: 1253
Location: Maine
Joined: August 16, 2011
 Hi Hahax, I think you just described in a scientific way,less the transmission line part, why the Dynaco A-25 morphed into the A-35 which had lower bass and the best of both worlds you described, a variovent or resistant port in a closed box...Mark K.

 

RE: Which is why listening is important..., posted on February 13, 2023 at 17:48:45
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Great speakers but what you lose without the line is theenergy absorption of the line spread over a long distance instead of basically in one step as in a box with damping.

It is interesting that the variovent works both venting to the outside(A25) and also venting from one box(with the driver) into a second box.

By the way what a variovent does(at least if it only pressure releases with no sound getting out) is to lower the Q of the speaker. The driver/box resonance stays the same but the Q gets lower resulting in a bit less bass but tighter, more defined bass.

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 14, 2023 at 12:17:51
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31872
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 "Note: When the review was sent to Alta Audio for fact checking, designer Michael Levy stated that the review samples of the Alec loudspeakers sent to SoundStage! were defective and not representative of current production models. Alta has agreed to send a new set of loudspeakers, which will be evaluated and reported on in the next few months."

And?


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: When a manufacturer states that "technically perfect speakers sound like crap" . . ., posted on February 14, 2023 at 13:53:05
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Ha, what a thing to say.

It can be said just as often -- if not more often -- that less-than-technically-perfect speakers sound like crap, too.

But, as you mention, what is technically perfect?

Doug
SoundStage!

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 14, 2023 at 15:51:45
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I agree it's obvious we're not measuring everything we should. But I'm sure we're not measuring wrong things. But perhaps we're measuring things that are not high in the hierarchy of most important measurements.

Almost all our measurements are basically static(also true for electronics) and music is dynamic, constantly changing and not in a repeating way. Perhaps we need dynamic measurements that look at these varying conditions.

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 15, 2023 at 11:40:31
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 I think you're 100% right about us not measuring the wrong things -- and also right about the hierarchy might not being right.

I would say the biggest danger, however, is misinterpreting what we're measuring. THAT is a problem -- the measurement is fine, the interpretation is wrong.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on February 15, 2023 at 11:42:22
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 See link below.

Doug

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 15, 2023 at 11:44:19
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 It appears we overlap a lot in how we see loudspeaker measurements.

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 15, 2023 at 19:10:30
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Quite possibly.

I don't know if you measure speakers, but I have with SoundStage! going on almost 25 years. After that amount of time I've realized how much WE DO KNOW -- and also how much WE DON'T KNOW.

Doug

 

Similar response, though. What's your crossover?, posted on February 16, 2023 at 13:42:35
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 Just from the graph, it looks like a 4th order electrical filter down -6dB at 2.5 to 3kHz would get you a nice 3rd order acoustical rolloff.

True ribbons are fragile, and generally need steep filters to avoid damaging overexcursions at the bottom of their passband. Years ago, a NY importer called Zalytron carried some Raven brand true ribbons from France, and recommended 6th order (or steeper!) highpass filters.

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam and measurements, posted on February 16, 2023 at 20:43:18
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I don't but I had friends who designed speakers and taught me things to look for. One example, albeit usually hard to measure in most production speakers is testing the response of each driver in it's enclosure and with it's crossover. In some ways this is more important than the overall frequency response. The way drivers roll of has a profound affect on dynamics.

 

Down -6.8dB; 3rd order Butterworth @ 3000Hz., posted on February 17, 2023 at 07:46:58
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000







For the latest go-round, I took the woofer off the crossover and connected it directly to the amplifier. Before that, I had the tweeter level up +2dB because of the wide trough in the FR.

So now the woofer is running flat, but I think that +1dB would be better. Please keep in mind that when JA measured Harbeth's P3ESR, it was +1 in the treble.

One thing I like about the idea of letting the woofer run wild is that one can re-dedicate that money to nicer capacitors on the tweeter.

BTW, Fountek ribbons are "reinforced," which I believe is some kind of film lamination process. So, their ribbons are not only more affordable, they are more robust.

Thanks for your interest,

john

 

That's a nice sounding graph!, posted on February 22, 2023 at 13:49:24
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 The fellows at ASR might even approve!

The baffle step compensation looks well dialed in, and the slight irregularities above crossover should level out at 15 to 30 degrees off axis. The lift above 8kHz should contribute some sparkle and shimmer high up, without excessive brightness.

I've never worked with true ribbon drivers (fragile! expensive! scary!), but have done a couple of builds with the Bohlender Graebner NEO 3 PDR magnetic planar tweets, which actually have a very similar response curve to your Fountek ribbons. Their superiority to a good dome lies mostly in their "open and airy" character in the top octave.

 

RE: Down -6.8dB; 3rd order Butterworth @ 3000Hz., posted on February 22, 2023 at 18:40:47
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 I'd analyze distortion on that for sure. Ribbons tend to have high distortion at lower frequencies -- highly audible distortion. Not controlling the top end of the woofer can result in something nasty if it's just left to fend for itself.

Not saying that would happen -- but it certainly could.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam, posted on March 1, 2023 at 09:26:33
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 How do you place such a speaker to minimize the floor effect? Put it close to the side walls?

Today, I found the Stereophile review and measurements on line. The measurements don't look so pretty but they aren't all that bad.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: When a manufacturer states that "technically perfect speakers sound like crap" . . ., posted on March 1, 2023 at 09:32:30
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 I keep wondering what those technically perfect speakers that sound like crap are.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on March 1, 2023 at 09:49:52
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 I am wondering if the Stereophile reviewer managed to better place the speakers to ameliorate the upper and midbass problems. Jeff Fritz's in room measurement show some problems there which are not evident in JA's measurements. It's too bad JA did not provide an in room measurement.

On the other hand, above the bass, Jeff Fritz's measurement looks pretty flat, which JA's measurements don't.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on March 1, 2023 at 10:22:33
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Why is it that when a product gets less than stellar reviews so often the mfgr. replies with the product is "defective and not representative of current production models"? Why the hell are you sending something to the reviewer that's defective?

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on March 1, 2023 at 14:20:30
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >Why is it that when a product gets less than stellar reviews so often the
>mfgr. replies with the product is "defective and not representative of
>current production models"?

Robert Deutsch wrote 30 years ago about how manufacturers should respond
to negative reviews.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

RE: Definitely strange ideas..., posted on March 1, 2023 at 18:49:19
DAP
Audiophile

Posts: 668
Location: Toronto
Joined: January 1, 2010
 I've always thought a good strategy would be for the manufacturer to effusively praise the review regardless whether good or bad, in the expectation that some readers would happen upon the manufacturers' comments without having read the original review.

Daniel

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam, posted on March 2, 2023 at 11:12:54
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8192
Joined: July 4, 2002
 Hi
So picture the speaker and you at the measurement position.
There is path length one, from the woofer to the microphone or you AND there is path length two which is the path from the woofer to the floor around half way between you and the floor to the microphone or you.

When the second path is about 1/2 wavelength longer / behind the direct path, the two sounds partially cancel each other out producing a notch in the frequency response where that happens. (or at least that is what this typically looks like)

So, if one reduced the difference in the two paths by lowering either the woofer or microphone position above the floor, one would find the notch goes up in Frequency.
So for a woofer, a couple steps further, one would put it no higher off the floor than having that notch, ABOVE the the woofer low pass frequency and out of the way of the bass response (so far as that strong effect).
Hope that makes sense
Tom

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam, posted on March 4, 2023 at 06:04:01
geoffkait
 The frequency response changes according to how close the speaker is to room boundaries. Allison speakers of course and perhaps others were designed to be placed in room corners. But others like say Rogers and Quad really had to be placed well away from walks and the floor to sound their very best. As with many things in audioland there are way too many variables involved, like speaker placement, vibration issues, room acoustics anomalies, to be able to generalize too much. When you walk into a room at CES people often assume the sound they hear is primarily due to speakers.

I shall refrain from giving the equation relating frequency response to distance from room boundaries.

 

RE: Alta Audio Adam, posted on April 17, 2023 at 10:37:35
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 How significant is the floor bounce? As you say, it would occur with a lot of speakers. It would also occur with natural sounds such as speech and live music, too. So we are used to floor reflections.

Dr. Floyd Toole discusses this briefly in his book, Sound Reproduction, 3rd ed, Section 7.4.7, p. 193.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Page processed in 0.042 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]