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I have the perfect popular-culture reference to sum up MoFi-Gate!

173.69.18.184
Posted on August 12, 2022 at 12:04:30
John Marks
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Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
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 I have the perfect popular-culture reference to sum up MoFi-Gate!

The low-budget slasher film (but, I repeat myself) "Motel Hell" is about a couple who own a farm and a hotel.

They waylay guests, fatten them up, and turn them into "artisanal sausages" and other smoked meats.

The denouement, of course, is very bloody. The dying villain's final words are something along the lines of:

"My life has been a lie... I used artificial preservatives."

Now that that is off my chest...

jm

 

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The video by Mobile Fidelity CEO, posted on August 12, 2022 at 12:51:25
geoffkait
 He explains very clearly what his company did with respect to the newer MoFi releases, including adding the DSD step during the mastering process for superior sound quality. It's not really that complicated.

 

I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape azimuth errors., posted on August 12, 2022 at 16:16:44
John Marks
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Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
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 I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape-azimuth errors.

Really?

Using which DSD software???

Please someone explain to me how that assertion is not bafflegab.

To do almost anything in DSD, you have to bounce to PCM and back.

So, is the "real truth" that there is a PCM step hidden inside MoFi's previously-hidden DSD step???

jm

 

Jamie Howarth's Plangent Process software is designed to do that., posted on August 12, 2022 at 16:29:15
viridian
 MoFi has used it on at least one recording. They are probably taking credit for everything under the sun now to try to change the focus. Link below, Mr. Marks.

 

AFAIK, I was the first high-end audio journalist to write about Plangent Processes, posted on August 12, 2022 at 17:04:25
John Marks
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Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
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 AFAIK, I was the first high-end audio journalist to write about Plangent Processes, in 2014 (link).

The chief goal of that system is to remove the Frequency Modulation that is caused by micro speed errors in the mechanical moving parts of the original recording deck.

If there is an azimuth-correction function, so be it.

But someone would have to explain to me how that happens PURELY in the DSD realm, for MoFi's statement not to be just another fib.

I talk to digitial engineers all the time, especially Brian Zolner of Bricasti. I am not making this stuff up.

So, someone with credentials, please step forward and clearly explain how you correct tape azimuth errors PURELY in the DSD domain.

jm

 

RE: AFAIK, I was the first high-end audio journalist to write about Plangent Processes, posted on August 12, 2022 at 17:33:15
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I think one of the issues that improper azimuth creates is phase shift between channels. Some of that can be fixed after the fact.

"What is azimuth? It is simply the angle of the recording or reproducing head gap relative to the motion of tape travel. It should be perpendicular. 90 degrees. 90.000 degrees. But there are limits to the accuracy of even the best test tapes. And there are limits to the operator's ability to adjust the machine. And the machine is subject to vibration and shock in its life. Here is an excellent paper by Jay McKnight of Magnetic Reference Lab about how they do azimuth and the limitations. Figure 6 of this MRL paper shows the frequency response when the azimuth is varied from optimum. What happens is that there is a combing effect and that can not fully be removed by re-equalizing after the transfer. Therefore, despite hardware and software "azimuth correctors" that are available, it is best to align the playback azimuth as best you can prior to transferring the tape - and do it with program."

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape azimuth errors., posted on August 12, 2022 at 18:13:31
13th Duke of Wymbourne
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Location: Orange Co., Ca
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 What they said was that they can optimize azimuth for each tape splice and capture those segments individually into digital. Then they can master from that digital file without having to make tape machine adjustments on the fly.

In their video with In-Groove Mike one of the MoFi engineers emphasized that he would much rather have enough time to spend doing the most perfect transfer to DSD than have the original tape in house and being rushed to cut a lacquer.

How important is all this azimuth optimization I don't know? Maybe a real-man mastering engineer will claim it should all be done live.

Adding Plangent would require conversion to PCM, AFAIK, but it could result in a better transfer (I've never heard a recording restored using it but I've read good things). Whether an optimized DSD transfer is better than an non optimum analog transfer, or whether DSD is better than PCM with Plangent is up to MofI, I suppose. Still, with an infinite number of YT pundits commentating on this surely one of them find the answer.

13DoW

 

RE: I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape azimuth errors., posted on August 12, 2022 at 19:03:50
Tre'
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Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
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 "What they said was that they can optimize azimuth for each tape splice and capture those segments individually into digital."

I think he meant that they would set the head azimuth on the tape deck for each song before transferring it to DSD.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape azimuth errors., posted on August 12, 2022 at 19:46:06
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2800
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 I heard, or read 'each splice' and that makes sense that azimuth could be different between splices but I don't know how often that happens in a master tape. The DSD transfer would allow optimization for each song if things go out of adjustment that quickly.

 

RE: I read a statement wherein MoFi claimed that DSD enabled them to correct tape azimuth errors., posted on August 12, 2022 at 20:12:29
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Don't get hung up with "each splice".

A work tape (used to cut a lacquer) is each song for one side of the LP in order with splicing tape in between each song all on one reel of tape.

Each song could have been recorded on a different machine at different times before it was spliced together with the other songs, so there might be differences in the azimuth settings for each song. That difference is probably very small but enough to make a difference.

I do believe they are simply saying that since they are copying the songs to digital, there is no reason not to take the time to reset (as needed) the azimuth on the play head on their Studer tape deck for each song before recording each song from the tape to the DSD file on the computer. They are not just copying the work tape straight through in real time. Just one song at a time and then they will edit (among other things) the DSD file to simulate a "work tape" before cutting.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

designed to do what?, posted on August 12, 2022 at 20:38:22
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I did a word search and azimuth didn't show up in your link.

I scanned it and it seems to be all about speed stability. That is a good thing but nothing to do with the angle of the record head on the original record tape deck vs. the angle of the play head on Mo-Fi's Studer play back tape deck.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

maybe they are using this or something similar, posted on August 13, 2022 at 03:06:10
Analog Scott
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Posts: 9933
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 And whether or not they are bouncing it to PCM and back should be of no concern. It's all completely transparent. This is really becoming a ridiculous joke.

So much concern in audiophilia over things that make no audible difference and so little concern for things that do. Like azimuth correction DSP. Or the Plangent system. As a vinyl enthusiast I am truly disgusted that these things are being avoided for the sake of this ridiculous myth that an all analog mastering chain is the path to the best sounding vinyl.

Give me the wonderful euphonic colorations of vinyl and analog recording but please keep the bad sounding artifacts out as much as possible.

 

Dear Scott, I truly do not have a dog in this fight, and I think that, posted on August 13, 2022 at 07:50:28
John Marks
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Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Dear Scott, I truly do not have a dog in this fight, and I think that it is sad that so many people feel "betrayed" or "ripped off." To the point that lawyers are trying to sign up clients for a Class Action.

Now, I have read quotations of statements attributed to various people at MoFi and at Music Direct, and like most of the things that get said in the real world, there is usually a lack of optimal clarity.

The statement I read about "DSD Fixing Azimuth" was one sentence, and whether it was taken out of context might not have made a difference, if the context was not sufficiently illuminating.

If they had said "Sometimes a composite tape includes segments that were recorded on different machines, or when one machine had fallen out of alignment. We can physically re-adjust the playback azimuth on our mastering deck for optimal playback of each segment; using QUAD DSD to compile those separate segment tansfers is, in our opinion, totally transparent," I would not have complained.

But it sounded as though they were using DSD to correct the azimuth, rather than PHYSICALLY re-setting the playback deck azimuth.

And yes, I work with one of the best archival restoration engineers out there, John Haley, and I am aware of the miracles that todays (all-PCM) restoration software can achieve.

I do hope that the Class Action gets thrown out--Federal Courts must have better things to do.

jm

 

".. and in the latest version developed for the Springsteen releases the azimuth is also stabilized. ", posted on August 13, 2022 at 10:29:55
viridian
 In the linked thread below Jamie Howarth says that in his first post. I take it at face value. Maybe I shouldn't.

 

RE: The video by Mobile Fidelity CEO, posted on August 14, 2022 at 19:37:40
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 But there is an issue.

I actually just produced a video about this, not to trash Mobile Fidelity, but to say that it proved two things about digital. People seem to like my take. See the link below.

Still, there's a problem with what MoFi did. First, I will say I was surprised at first about the uproar because I know that 99% of records today are made using digital somewhere in the chain -- and I figured that MoFi was doing that, too. But as I read comments and watched videos, it became very clear that many people thought that MoFi was giving them a pure analog signal path. And why did they think that? Because MoFi went to great lengths to promote their analog equipment and even had the graphics to illustrate the analog signal path. Suddenly it was clear why these people were so upset.

So the issue here is if Mobile Fidelity misled -- and, if so, what that has now done to the brand name and reputation, not to mention to the prices of past and future releases.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

DSD isn't editable, posted on August 14, 2022 at 20:32:35
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 I believe the point you're driving home is that a DSD file isn't editable like that -- if it's to stay DSD. There has to be PCM conversion to edit.

But it's not clear they are doing anything with azimuth correction. It was brought up, but I haven't found anything to say it's definitively part of their process. If it is, they'll have to explain that, too. But if not, well, we're just down to the DSD step that no one knew was there. On the other hand, maybe there's other stuff they left out that we just don't know yet.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

Why would this affect prices?, posted on August 14, 2022 at 23:42:13
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 If one understands what Mofi is actually doing one should also understand the prices. Did all of these people not know that Nightfly was a digital recording? The One Step was the same price as the rest. No one talked about pricing then did they?

 

RE: Why would this affect prices?, posted on August 15, 2022 at 07:02:47
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

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Location: North America
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 See what happens...

Many people were buying MoFi because of the all-"analog" myth. Also, there's an inherently short lifespan cranking off LPs from analog tape -- the tape wears out. Digital is a different story.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

When Music Direct customer service answered inquiries saying that...-, posted on August 15, 2022 at 07:49:09
viridian
 ..the recording chain was all analog that was the smoking gun as far as I was concerned. Intentional deception.

 

Not really sure what your answer is supposed to mean?, posted on August 15, 2022 at 08:09:52
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
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 Are you sggesting that part of the monetary value of the Mofi One Steps was the idea that they were wearing out and ruining the original master tapes so those records could never be made again?

 

RE: Not really sure what your answer is supposed to mean?, posted on August 15, 2022 at 16:14:53
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

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 Yes, that was certainly part of it.

The idea of using a master tape -- which, in hindsight, people should've never thought that the company would've have such free access to -- and cutting almost directly from it heightens the value because you can only run that tape so much, and also only stamp out so many. So scarcity certain factored in.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

RE: Not really sure what your answer is supposed to mean?, posted on August 15, 2022 at 22:11:37
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 So some folks thought they were supporting and investing in the destruction of original master tapes in order to heighten the value of their speculative investments? That's messed up. I'm glad those individuals are pissed off. They are terrible people

 

"Motel Hell", posted on August 16, 2022 at 23:56:42
Krav Maga
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 Back in the day, that was my favorite Halloween night movie. LOL :-)
"All thoughts are prey to some beast" - Bill Callahan

"I'll be your mirror
Reflect what you are" - Lou Reed

"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Albert Einstein

 

RE: I have the perfect popular-culture reference to sum up MoFi-Gate!, posted on September 4, 2022 at 01:00:29
fantja
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Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
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 Excellent point- JM.

 

RE: The video by Mobile Fidelity CEO, posted on September 4, 2022 at 01:01:04
fantja
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 Excellent counter-points DS.

 

Huh?, posted on September 4, 2022 at 05:59:17
geoffkait
 CDs by and large are not purely digital and nobody ever gave a rat's behind about that. Hel-loo!

 

RE: Huh?, posted on September 4, 2022 at 14:40:34
Archimago
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 "CDs by and large are not purely digital and nobody ever gave a rat's behind about that. Hel-loo!"

Please elaborate?
-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

What I don't understand here , posted on September 4, 2022 at 15:24:30
Doublej
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 Based on the way Michael Fremer is representing himself, he appears to have never asked Mobile Fidelity to explain to him their end to end process for making their records. This has been going on for more than a decade and this discovery seems to have caught Michael by surprise.

Am I missing something here?

 

RE: Huh?, posted on September 5, 2022 at 06:40:16
geoffkait
 Most CDs with some exceptions are produced from the original analog tape. Thus, they are not purely digital.

 

RE: Huh?, posted on September 16, 2022 at 11:25:00
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

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Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Where did you get that information? Do you have any idea how long digital has been in the recording world? Yes, people USED to record on analog tape -- but, please, do a little bit of research on what's been happening for the last few decades.

Doug

 

Double huh?, posted on September 16, 2022 at 11:55:00
geoffkait
 Yes, I have some idea how long digital has been around the recording world. But I'm excluding those recordings, as I said. Do you have any idea how many recordings are created with analog tape or remastered from the original analog tape?

The best sounding CDs have always been the ones made from analog tape, not the all-digital ones. Sadly, the all-digital CDs generally sound thin, two dimensional, bass shy, rolled off, irritating, bland, overly compressed, un-involving, synthetic, metallic, and like papier-m

 

RE: Double huh?, posted on September 16, 2022 at 18:06:07
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
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 "The best sounding CDs have always been the ones made from analog tape, not the all-digital ones. Sadly, the all-digital CDs generally sound thin, two dimensional, bass shy, rolled off, irritating, bland, overly compressed, un-involving, synthetic, metallic, and like papier-m"

These are just foolish generalizations. Now I remember, you're the clickbait guy advancing the state-of-the-art in hi-fi... sad I wasted my time answering.

Doug

 

You must be talking about CDs in your collection :-), posted on September 18, 2022 at 07:24:44
Tre'
Industry Professional

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 CD haven't been made from analog tapes (for the most part) since the 1980's.

I think you got stuck in the past somehow.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: What I don't understand here , posted on September 19, 2022 at 06:47:01
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
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 He did ask early on and was told that the records were all analog. He didn't believe them but didn't want to make enemies so he let it go. Later Mo-Fi promised to come clean on their own so he let it go but they didn't come clean on their own. The rest is history.

The bottom line, MF could hear the problem from early on. He said something in an early review but didn't want to just keep harping on it and make enemies.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

I'm logged in but, posted on September 19, 2022 at 16:35:51
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
Steve Hoffman Music Forums - Error
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

Can you just copy the text and post it for me?


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: What I don't understand here , posted on September 24, 2022 at 12:29:14
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Actually, nothing indicates that ANYONE heard anything that led them to believe that a digital step was involved.

A lot of the so-called "analog experts" in hi-fi reviewing haven't stepped far out of their own basements. Anyone who knows a thing or two about the record industry today knows that the claim of actually using master tapes is suspect -- companies DON'T let them out!

Furthermore, digital has been in professional recording for well over 40 years -- and people have no idea where it was and wasn't used. It's been another tool.

But back to the Mobile Fidelity thing -- NO ONE CALLED OUT DIGITAL in 10+ years. NO ONE. The only reason it was found out now is that someone said something to someone. I made a video about it, linked below.

BTW, not all new releases of old recordings sound better -- it's entirely possible to make a release and have it sound worse. That doesn't mean digital was involved. People are trying to take those criticisms and now say it was digital all this time -- but that's rewriting history. Because they praised albums that were digital as well. Which is it? A bunch of nonsense from people who just couldn't tell.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

Almost 100% of my CDs are ADD or AAD. , posted on October 21, 2022 at 01:29:07
geoffkait
 If you can tolerate DDD CDs more power to you.

 

RE: Almost 100% of my CDs are ADD or AAD. , posted on February 6, 2023 at 23:13:43
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Joined: January 18, 2002
 What's wrong with DDD CDs? Plenty of those around... Some good, some bad. Just like there were good and bad LPs, ADD, AAD, SACD, etc.
-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

What's wrong with them? They're all digital. , posted on February 8, 2023 at 13:46:39
geoffkait
 Haven't you noticed DDD CDs sound generally thin, two dimensional, synthetic, bland, etched, rolled off at top, rolled off at bottom, congealed, airless, monotone and disappointing.

 

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