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Speaker Reviews

96.83.74.33
Posted on December 30, 2021 at 10:04:35
svisner
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 I purchased a pain of Wharfedale Linton speakers. I auditioned them at the Capitol Audiofest, and read Herb Reichert's very positive 2019 Stereophile review. (https://www.stereophile.com/content/wharfedale-linton-heritage-loudspeaker ). I like them very much, though I've added a Hsu Research subwoofer and a pair of Aperion planar supertweeters, giving my listening room just a bit more breadth and the overall situation a touch more high end definition. Neither the sub nor the supertweeters were required for good listening, but I like to tinker. I drive this ensemble with a vintage McIntosh 240 amplifier.

I looked today again at the review by John Atkinson of the B&W 804 D4, also in Stereophile. This review was generally positive, but expressed some reservations, particularly about the high-end of the frequency spectrum, as well as the impedence curve.

The Linton's with bases, retail for about $1500/pair, more or less. The B&W's retail for $12K. So, we see a difference of just under an order of magnitude.

Perhaps telling is John Atkinson's technical summary for each speaker. For the B&W speakers, see: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-diamond-series-804-d4-loudspeaker-measurements and for the Wharfedale's, https://www.stereophile.com/content/wharfedale-linton-heritage-loudspeaker-measurements .


So, what correlation should we make regarding price, sound quality, and technical measurements? Some speakers are really very expensive ($12K is a relatively modest price point, given other speakers I see advertised and reviewed). It can take some time for a listener to decide if a speaker is really satisfactory, and speaker position adjustment can be subtle and tricky (as I learned with Maggie's). A showroom or trade demonstration may not be enough.

How should one apply reviews to our speaking purchasing decisions? What should we make of these reviews, in any case?

 

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RE: Speaker Reviews, posted on December 30, 2021 at 12:31:49
mark.korda@myfairpoint.net
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 Hi Svisner, The 804's as I remember really don't need a subwoofer. I think what you are doing with the Wharfdales and the HSU and with all your know-how and tinkering makes up that big gap of money between the 2 speaker choices. You just defined without knowing it what the hobby is all about. What fun would it be if you could just go out and buy the most expensive speaker? The 804's are rock solid and beautifully made though. To me it's like owning a car. One person can afford a Ferrari. The other person can't so he tinkers with mods and improvements to get that Ferrari performance, a hot rodder. It's the same with Hifi. Take care....MarkKorda

 

RE: Speaker Reviews, posted on December 30, 2021 at 15:19:20
svisner
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 Mark - That's a nice answer. In fact, I like to see what kind of performance can be had in more modest gear, or gear that I think represents very good value for money. My McIntosh 240 was purchased (not by me) in 1965. It was costly at the time, but it has stood up well. So, good value for money indeed. As for tinkering - I have had some good turntables (a VPI and a Yamaha linear tracker). Now, however, I'm using a simple U-Turn Orbit (with Herbie's Amazing Mat, Sleeve City Weight, Auralex Base, Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge, and Bellari VP130 MK2 phono preamp. This is still a rather modestly priced ensemble, but it sounds wonderful. So, yes, I think the fun is in both enjoying (and exploring) music and in working with the gear. At the price point of the Wharfedales and the U-Turn, I can move on without incurring a big loss. On the other hand, at the moment, I don't feel the need.

Still, the reviews leave me perplexed. I think the two reviews might be summed up as "the B&W is a better speaker in toto, but the Wharfedale achieved its design objectives more successfully."

 

For your amp, you made the right speaker choice..., posted on December 30, 2021 at 16:50:07
Ivan303
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 I do think that reviewers take price into consideration when being critical of some points as above.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: For your amp, you made the right speaker choice..., posted on December 31, 2021 at 06:22:10
svisner
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 I suspect you are correct.

 

RE: Speaker Reviews, posted on December 31, 2021 at 13:16:48
E-Stat
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 How should one apply reviews to our speaking purchasing decisions? What should we make of these reviews, in any case?

The objective from the founding father of another magazine was to help narrow down the choices for - you to audition.

 

Speakers can sound wildly different from room to room. , posted on January 1, 2022 at 06:30:56
geoffkait
 Plus a lot of other variables affect the sound of any speaker. So what's the point if reviewing speakers? Maybe someone can tell me. Yes, I know what you're thinking, but a review will give some indication of what the real sound is, won't it? Lol

 

RE: Speakers can sound wildly different from room to room. , posted on January 1, 2022 at 07:00:32
jdg123
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 Like a wine critic a speaker reviewer is of limited use. You have to get to know how the reviewer feels his way through a bunch of equipment to have any use of his impressions. IT is that of just buy everything and see how it sounds in your home.

 

RE: Speakers can sound wildly different from room to room. , posted on January 1, 2022 at 10:23:01
svisner
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 I think very well of John Atkinson's approach. I have also used Herb Reichart's reviews to help me make decisions. Perhaps we share preferences.

 

objective and repeatable measurements can be extremely helpful -- , posted on January 2, 2022 at 13:43:37
mhardy6647
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 even, I'd opine, if they are not synonomyous with performance in an actual acoustic space.

A set of measurements conducted in a repeatable manner with calibrated/standardized equipment can result in a databse that can be correlated against one's listening prefrence. Once one knows how one's preferences map onto objective data, the data should have considerable power to help one identify loudspeakers that one probably would like based on the characteristics of loudspeakers that one does like. That's really important, I'd suggest, in the modern ;) era, when most of us don't have ready access to brick & mortar hifi stores to listen before plunking down coin o' the realm to purchase a pair of loudspeakers. Most of us nowadays sort of have to buy "sound unheard". I think some quantitative notion of what we like helps buy down risk in a "blind" -- or is it "deaf" ;) -- purchase.

I believe that this is, in essence, the idea behind the "Harman Target Curve", although in that case, the "target" isn't an individual's preference, but some sort of statistically informed estimate of most folks' preference.

Thanks to Canada' National Research Council, there is a large database of quantitative data on many different loudspeakers available via one-stop shopping, too! See link below.



all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Speaker Reviews, posted on January 3, 2022 at 10:59:52
Pat D
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 To help narrow down the choices for speakers to audition, indeed. That's why I like to see a good set of measurement from the NRC or JA.


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Measurements provide little knowledge -nt, posted on January 3, 2022 at 11:06:55
E-Stat
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RE: objective and repeatable measurements can be extremely helpful -- , posted on January 3, 2022 at 14:43:05
svisner
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 I rather like the idea of using measurements as a way of thinking about the kind of sound one prefers. I perused the link and found (using, perhaps, confirmation bias) that speakers I tend to like are characterized by a specific kind of response curve, and those I've not really liked characterized by other response curves. As it happens, I have a pair of Wharfedale Linton speakers which are not covered by measurements at the link. However, the link does cover their Diamond speakers which seem, according to the Website, to exhibit fairly flat high frequency response, rather than any particular emphasis. Again, I may be reading into these measurements a confirmation of what I think I hear and think I like, but I find the correlation between data and my perceptions interesting, and maybe a bit reassuring.

 

Maybe we should use tarot cards?, posted on January 3, 2022 at 18:20:49
Analog Scott
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 measurements provide a wealth of information about loudspeakers. Now more so than ever.

 

Misinformation, posted on January 4, 2022 at 05:34:31
geoffkait
 Total Harmonic Distortion THD - We found out a long time ago THD has little significance since tube amps with relatively high THD say around .05% often sound superior to solid state amps with super low THD say around .0002%. So it goes. You cannot rely on frequency response specs either since every room will sound different. Slew Rate was another red herring,

 

RE: Misinformation, posted on January 4, 2022 at 07:35:37
mark.korda@myfairpoint.net
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 Geoffkait, Back in 1975 I remember the stereo salesmen selling speakers with the New England sound or the west coast sound.New England sound because speakers made in New England, Advent, and AR for example.They had flat frequency lines as seen in the mag.High Fidelity. The west coast speakers like JBL and Cerwin Vega had frequency lines that were more erratic and had more dips and peaks to lure in the rock and roll crowd.It was less accurate but the rock crowd loved the boosted bass Because of that I used to associate New England sound with Charles Emerson Winchester (MASH) and west coast sound with David Lee Roth (Van Halen).I still have those old mags.and went right to the frequency graph instead of the reviewer's comments to get the real story.John Atkinson still displays frequency graphs in his reviews...take care....Mark Korda

 

Yeah, posted on January 4, 2022 at 09:40:51
E-Stat
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 I figured that out as a teenager. :)

 

Correcto mundo!, posted on January 4, 2022 at 10:38:52
geoffkait
 I won't mention any names, but some people apparently don't know that.

 

You figurd out as a teenager that THD wasn't useful measurement for speakers?, posted on January 4, 2022 at 15:54:17
Analog Scott
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 Funny, I never knew THD was measured in speakers. Frequency response too? Ya know a lot has happened since you were a teenager. you can even measure frequency response in your own stereo room from the listening position. You should see the measurements they do these days on loudspeakers.

 

Yes, posted on January 4, 2022 at 17:21:08
E-Stat
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 Funny, I never knew THD was measured in speakers

Really? Click here for one review example of test data referenced in the link provided by mhardy earlier in this thread.



you can even measure frequency response in your own stereo room from the listening position.

No $hit! Here's a third octave plot of the music system:



What I find particularly important is consistent directivity across the bandwidth. One of the reasons I never liked the JBL 431x/Century speaker series was because of its weird fun house mirror image.

 

OK...., posted on January 4, 2022 at 18:02:11
Analog Scott
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 so you are holding back on us. You are finding speaker measurements of some use. Just has to be the right ones with an understanding of what they tell us and what they don't tell us.

 

Not so much as a speaker spec, posted on January 4, 2022 at 18:08:52
E-Stat
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 There is no substitute for auditioning.

I use in-room measurements to locate speakers for the most linear results in the Schroeder frequencies.

 

RE: Speaker Reviews, posted on January 5, 2022 at 09:48:54
svisner
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 Fellow inmates - I am rather pleased with this thread. Interesting discussion about utility of reviews and tests, overlaid with experience of listening for many years. Thanks.

 

RE: Yes, posted on January 5, 2022 at 15:32:44
Pat D
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 Well, based on the FR measurements of the B & W 805 D4, I would not do any traveling to audition it. Way too bright. If I were looking for new speakers, this would not be on my audition list.

I've managed to find speakers I still like after 16 or so years and which are not difficult to place.

I have no idea why you and AS are arguing over THD for speakers.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Just goes to show you, posted on January 5, 2022 at 16:04:37
E-Stat
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 some find THD a relevant audio metric in today's world.

Go figure.

 

I'm not arguing THD of speakers, posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:13:20
Analog Scott
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 Like I said, I didn't even know anyone was bothering to even measure that. My argument is that measurements, modern measurements of speakers are useful and do tell you a lot about the speaker's performance.

 

Is that really what it shows you? , posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:17:23
Analog Scott
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 I don't even know how to respond. Other than I guess people can find whatever meaning they want to find in anything.

 

RE: I'm not arguing THD of speakers, posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:18:01
Pat D
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 Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about you. But for some reason E-stat brought it up.


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: I'm not arguing THD of speakers, posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:23:56
Analog Scott
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 No worries.Yeah....for some reason....

 

Short memory, posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:29:17
E-Stat
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 But for some reason E-stat brought it up.

Geoff brought it up and I agreed. Done.

Then out of the blue Analog S advanced a series of snarky questions about THD to me. While THD is meaningless to me, I answered them.

Go figure.

 

Specifically what it shows me, posted on January 5, 2022 at 17:35:45
E-Stat
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 is that this post should have been ignored.

Reads like a child wrote it.

 

RE: Specifically what it shows me, posted on January 5, 2022 at 20:27:47
Analog Scott
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 And you call me snarky. git offa my lawn!!!

 

You are hearing the sound of the entire system, not only the speakers., posted on January 6, 2022 at 06:15:30
geoffkait
 You got cables, electronics, whatever local RF issues and seismic vibe issues there are, errors in the system, not to mention time of day, day or week, weather and things that go bump in the night, you know. For example, the sound will be worse on the tenth floor than on the first floor, all other things being equal. And the sound will be better on Sunday morning than any other day, all things being equal. By inspection, speaker reviews should be taken with a big honking grain of salt.

 

You should be, posted on January 6, 2022 at 10:00:53
Dave_K
 Speakers are the only part of the playback chain where THD gives you useful information. And loudspeaker distortion has been an area of considerable improvement over the years.

 

THD is only one kind of distortion, isn't it? Surely there are others. Nt, posted on January 6, 2022 at 10:09:49
geoffkait
 Nt

 

RE: You should be, posted on January 6, 2022 at 10:26:58
Analog Scott
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 What speakers are producing audible harmonic distortion?

 

It's the sum of the harmonics, posted on January 6, 2022 at 11:42:47
Dave_K
 Sure, harmonic distortion isn't the only kind of distortion. But it's the dominant form of non-linear distortion seen in loudspeakers at low frequencies and/or high playback levels. I think intermodulation distortion is just as important.

 

All of them if you drive them hard enough (nt), posted on January 6, 2022 at 11:43:32
Dave_K
 nt

 

sounds like you are just making this up, posted on January 6, 2022 at 14:04:10
Analog Scott
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 You will certainly get distortion from maxing out the driver excursion limits but that ain't classic harmonic distortion. You stand a real good chance of damaging the speakers too.

So if harmonic distortion is an issue only when speakers are being abused and we areonly calling it harmonic distortion because the breakup and other artifacts frombeing over driven have some sort of harmonic relationship to the actual signal I don't see any point in measuring that much less using it as a criteria in narrowing one's choices of speakers.

So do you know of speakers that have audible harmonic distortion when they aren't being abused?

 

For an alternative view ..., posted on January 7, 2022 at 09:11:25
DAP
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 "When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it. When you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind. It may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science."

-- William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin

 

RE: For an alternative view ..., posted on January 7, 2022 at 09:17:35
E-Stat
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 Such is relevant when the topic is "Electrical Units of Measurement" and does not involve sensory perception.



 

Sure it does, posted on January 7, 2022 at 11:16:06
Analog Scott
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 Look up psychoacoustics. It's a very interesting and relevant field of scientific study to audiophilia

 

Surely by now, posted on January 7, 2022 at 11:18:17
E-Stat
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 you must realize that I don't share any of your opinions.

Let's just leave it at that. No juvenile responses required.

 

Do you consider 10% distortion to be inaudible? (long), posted on January 7, 2022 at 13:18:24
Dave_K
 I'll start with this:


That's a THD plot for the Dynaudio C1, which is a highly regarded and very well reviewed two-way standmounted loudspeaker that I've heard on many occasions and I own their larger floorstander from the same line. The measurement is made at 90 dB SPL @ 2m anechoic, which is moderately loud in a smaller room but well within the power handling capabilities of this speaker. The distortion peaks at 10% @ 100 Hz, but it likely exceeds that in the (unmeasured) 30-50 Hz range. It also remains above 2.5% over the entire bass range, up to 200 Hz. And you can see it exceeding 1% in other frequencies.

I can assure you that the distortion in the bass and lower midrange is very audible, even to an untrained ear. As you turn up the volume on the speakers, the bass blooms in level and gains "meat on the bones", "texture", and "definition". Those are terms that many listeners use to positively describe the bass of these speakers. But what we're hearing is a rise in harmonics relative to the fundamental.

It continues through the lower midrange, giving the speaker a warmer and richer sound as the volume is increased. Even the distortion in the treble becomes audible as a touch of "sweetness". To some extent, the distortion of this loudspeaker can be pleasing and it makes the speaker more tolerant of poor quality recordings. However, this speaker does not have state of the art clarity or resolution.

This speaker sounds its best over a narrow range of volume levels, around 75-85 dB in a typical listening room. Below about 75 dB, the speaker is relatively dry and dead sounding due to its flat frequency response and Fletcher-Munson. Above 85 dB, the distortion stops being subtle and arguably pleasant and starts degrading the speaker's clarity.

Here's the Harbeth Model 30:


That's another well reviewed and highly regarded two-way. Compared to the Dynaudio, it has a larger cabinet and was designed with a higher tuning frequency, so it is more efficient. Note the distortion in the bass range is considerably lower than the Dynaudio at the same playback level. However, the distortion does get up to ~2% in the lower midrange, which is not bad but this speaker also lacks state of the art clarity and the lower mids are a touch on the rich side tonally.

Finally, here's one more standmounted two-way box speaker, this time a high efficiency design, the Reference 3A MM de Capo BE:


It's producing around 1% distortion over a wide frequency range, which is objectively poor. But when I auditioned the older version of this speaker, I didn't notice the distortion. It may be masked by the FR anomalies. I was pretty distracted by the peaking midrange around E5, and I didn't like the speaker. They were uncommonly dynamic for a little speaker though.

Finally, let me give you something state of the art, the Magico S5:


Keep in mind it's a large-ish floostanding 3-way, so it should be a lot better than the others. But still, wow. I actually haven't heard this speaker, but I've spent several multi-hour listening sessions with the S3 in one of the excellent listening rooms at Goodwin's High End near Boston. I was using it as a tool to audition other gear because it's dead neutral to my ears and very resolving without any artificial edge.

I've also dabbled with designing and building my own small two-ways and run into the tradeoffs described above with the Dynaudio. If you want 40 Hz or lower extension and well controlled FR, the sensitivity is going to be below 85 dB, they're going to need power, and they can't play very loud without the distortion becoming audible. Designing for 50 Hz is much better in my opinion, but that always leads to comments that it needs a subwoofer.

I measure distortion using Omnimic, looking at THD but also sometimes IMD. For example:


 

It's not a matter of opinion, posted on January 7, 2022 at 15:44:51
Analog Scott
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 It's a matter of fact. there actually is an entire branch of science, psychoacoustics, that you apparenly think "as a matter of opinion" is not valid. That's just pure science denial. the kind of thing we come to expect from creationists and other lunitic fringes. Has nothing to do with my opinion.

I am often amazed at how many people use science based technology, the internet and computers, to express their disbelief in science. Truly ironic.

 

Unfortunately yet another juvenile response, posted on January 7, 2022 at 15:50:28
E-Stat
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 As one who has been a music and audio enthusiast for fifty years with a wide exposure to live music and state of the art gear, you're not telling me anything I don't already know.

It's by a matter of degrees. That's where we disagree. Argue to the wall if you must. I don't care. :)

 

Thank you for the in depth response, posted on January 7, 2022 at 15:51:18
Analog Scott
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 however I don't know how this really establishes what distortion is and is not audible. How do you know what is and is not masked? It isn't just about the percentage.

 

keep shakin that fist, posted on January 7, 2022 at 16:19:04
Analog Scott
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 no doubt everything looks juevenille to the old fart yelling at everyone to get off of their lawn.

I love that you somehow think being a long time hobbyist somehow makes you an authority.

and clearly you do care. Classic symptom of toxic fandom. You see status in your "expertise" as a fanboy.

feel free to shake your fist at me some more. It's kind of funny

 

RE: sounds like you are just making this up, posted on January 9, 2022 at 16:35:22
Pat D
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 I had never specifically looked up on this, though I had heard that distortion in speakers below 500 Hz is not usually a problem. Axiom Audio did some tests. The author, Alan Lofft probably has even more experience in audio than even E-stat. But anyway, their research results seem to confirm that more or less.

"Axiom's tests of a wide range of male and female listeners of various ages with normal hearing showed that low-frequency distortion from a subwoofer or wide-range speaker with music signals is undetectable until it reaches gross levels approaching or exceeding the music playback levels. Only in the midrange does our hearing threshold for distortion detection become more acute. For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz. At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained. The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible, such is the masking effect of music. Anecdotal reports of listeners' ability to hear low frequency distortion with music programming are unsupported by the Axiom tests, at least until the distortion meets or exceeds the actual music playback level. These results indicate that the where of distortionat what frequency it occurs is at least as important as the how much or overall level of distortion. For the designer, this presents an interesting paradox to beware of: Audible distortion may increase if distortion is lowered at the price of raising its occurrence frequency."


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

100% distortion before they complained, posted on January 9, 2022 at 17:18:37
geoffkait
 Maybe they should look for a different panel of listeners.

 

Note that the test involved test tones, posted on January 10, 2022 at 09:48:54
E-Stat
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 Have no idea how I would do detecting 10% of a say 120 hz signal. There's no musical context.

 

Good catch! Nt, posted on January 10, 2022 at 10:54:34
geoffkait
 Nt

 

there in lies the problem, posted on January 11, 2022 at 09:06:22
Analog Scott
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 You really do have no idea. Nevermind that these things have been carefully and thoroughly studied.

I do get a kick out of this audiophile mythology that there is something magically unique about audio signals if they are from recordings of music.As if somehow hey are no longer a bunch of sine waves.

 

Followed by... ;), posted on January 11, 2022 at 09:14:16
E-Stat
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The problem lies beyond, Mr. Smarty Pants, posted on January 11, 2022 at 11:27:23
geoffkait
 The reason all (rpt all) home HiFi systems distort when you turn the volume up past moderate levels is because there are "forces" outside the audio system, outside the house AC wiring, outside RFI/EMI, outside the entire house, that cause the distortion. This distortion occurs even when the listener has done everything in his or her power to reduce distortion in the system as much as humanly possible. Systems aren't supposed to distort just because you turn the system up. It's not as if the system gets "saturated." Lol

Frankly, I'm surprised no one ever mentions this. It's pretty obvious once you know what to look for, once it's not there. , I guess people think their systems are being "over-driven" or something. Lol! Most likely everyone's learned to live with it.

Yes, I know what you're thinking, "Gosh, somebody must have studied it somewhere."

The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. Old audiophile axiom

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Not too Chicken to Change

 

That is/was why gentlmen like Martin Colloms were indespensable. INTEGRITY nT, posted on January 26, 2022 at 06:01:32
Cleantimestream
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 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: sounds like you are just making this up, posted on February 19, 2022 at 07:05:29
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
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 "So do you know of speakers that have audible harmonic distortion when they aren't being abused? "

I guess the key word there is "audible". I know that all speakers have harmonic distortion and in the low frequencies the percentage is very high even when not being "abused".

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Sadly since speakers sound different in different rooms they measure different too. Nt, posted on February 19, 2022 at 10:37:37
geoffkait
 Nt

 

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