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theory & data summaries

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Posted on July 20, 1999 at 21:26:41
Mart


 
1) In your collective endevors, has anyone done any correlations between crossectional geometry & impedence? What angle of twist is optimum?

2) Has anyone plotted cable impedence & phase?

3) Why does time aligned cable construction imply that HFs traverse the distance faster than LFs?

 

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Re: theory & data summaries, posted on July 20, 1999 at 21:52:05
Terry


 
in answer to your first query, there are indeed manufacturers who have conducted extensive testing of cross-section geometry...in fact Tara Labs and several other companies have based much of their product development on cable geometry.


 

Re: theory & data summaries, posted on July 21, 1999 at 20:31:02
>>> 1) In your collective endevors, has anyone done any correlations between crossectional geometry & impedence?

Yes, see this post:
/audio/cables/messages/17.html

>>> What angle of twist is optimum?

From a practical standpoint, any twist beyond one (a 360) every two inches is only a small improvement from an impedance standpoint, or even in terms of rejecting interferance, but theoretically, a 45 degree angle of twisting would maximize external signal rejection, while a completely parallel run would minimize inductance. As usual, somewhere in between is useful in the real world.

>>> 2) Has anyone plotted cable impedence & phase?

Impedance, Yes. Phase is much harder to measure correctly, and is generally not considered to be an issue for most cables. This may be one of those parameters that bears more looking into.

>>> 3) Why does time aligned cable construction imply that HFs traverse the distance faster than LFs?

A simple solid piece of wire that is of a substantial size, i.e., something larger than 26 gauge or so, will have a differential in the amount of LF current that flows in the middle of the wire, and the HF current flow. Due to this, a differential exists between the rate of signal travel for LF's, and the rate of signal travel for HF's. Another way of looking at it is, due to the deeper penetration of the conductor by the LF's, they are delayed a little more due to the conduction. It must be noted that this differential is very small, and again, would be hard to measure accurately for any given wire.

Jon Risch

 

PS, posted on July 21, 1999 at 20:37:21
Cardas has an excellent summary of the various geometries at their web site, as well as some interesting measurements:

http://www.cardas.com/insights/ (Under the heading of Cable Construction Guide)
http://www.cardas.com/insights/measureresonance.html

http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/hybrid.htm
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/pvchflex.htm
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/brickwal.htm
(microphotographs of copper crystals)

http://www.transparentcable.com/networks.html
http://www.transparentcable.com/design.html
http://www.transparentcable.com/technology.html
http://www.transparentcable.com/techtalk.html


http://www.taralabs.com/papers/index.htm

http://www.taralabs.com/papers/cczt.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/sci1.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/sci2.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/sci3.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/sci4.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/one.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/rsc.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/super.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/saof8n.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/aerope.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/teflon.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/airtube.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/ism.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/parallel.htm
http://www.taralabs.com/papers/bsm.htm


http://www.ticeaudio.com/frm_auca.htm
http://www.ticeaudio.com/frm_caqa.htm
http://www.ticeaudio.com/frm_caqa.htm

http://www.straightwire.com/qa.html

 

further temporal questions..., posted on July 22, 1999 at 00:23:23
Mart


 
1) If signal velocities (or group velocities which is a query all by itself... #4) of the signal is frequency dependent, then wavelength is no longer inversely rated to frequency. At least, the direct formula is a linear simplification of the actual relationship. I'm worried about the probable impending consequences of this statement, for it's a basic rule at the heart of most electronics.

2) In your average round 26 gauge wire, all things being equal (assuming a continuum), what's the effective area.vs.frequency (as LFs retract from the surface & HFs migrate to the surface both using less of the physically available wire)?

3) I've found it interesting while measuring tweeters that the skin-effect reduction of used VC wire disguises itself well with the inductance of the "Le" driver, since the resistance increases much like inductance behaves. However, the real portion of impedence drops the current so the subsequent effective inductance drops too. With your cable experience & measuring equipment you may find this phenomenon interesting too. FWIW, the phase seems to behave assymptoticly to about 45-degrees (rather than the expected 90) among the better tweeters that I bothered measuring.

4) Does the actual signal travel inside group velocity envelopes where voice can be distorted by its composite Fourier frequencies travel at independent speeds? Thus, the signal reconstruction may defacto phase the vocal components forever loosing the character of the signal.

5) Why would conductor penetration into the metallurgicly superior portion (larger grains exhibiting lower resistance) of the wire delay a signal more than HFs which travel under worse conditions (more contaminants & higher gain boundary density) & lower effective area? Is this some sort of venturi effect?

====

& THANK YOU for your responses past & present...
as I genuflect & return to read more of your supplied sources that I bookmarked.

 

Re: further temporal questions..., posted on July 22, 1999 at 19:21:25
[ 1) If signal velocities of the signal is frequency dependent, then wavelength is no longer inversely rated to frequency. At least, the direct formula is a linear simplification of the actual relationship. I'm worried about the probable impending consequences of this statement, for it's a basic rule at the heart of most electronics. ]

Have no fear, there is no violation of the laws of physics. First, think of waves traveling in different mediums, the speed of transversal is different for different mediums. As an EM wave travels through the plastic of an insulator (dielectric), it is slowed due to the dielectric constant of the insulator, and in some cases, such as for PVC, the dielectric constant is NOT constant with frequency {actually, the dielectric constant is more correctly called the dielectric coefficient}. Differing plastics would cause diferent rates of travel. Just as light bends as it enters the water from the air, there will be dispersions, refractions, etc. as an EM wave travels through different media.

As to the case for conductors, one must realize that a case could be made for ordinary copper and silver to be considered as degenerate cases of a perfect conductor. A perfect conductor will not allow ANY penetration of an EM field, the E-field would be completely and totally shorted out (in this regard, real world conductors are closer to perfection), while the magnetic field would be totally repelled by equal but opposite surface currents that did not penetrate into the conductor. The only reason even the magnetic field penetrates into the real world conductor is that it is not conductive enough to provide a perfect expression of the Messnier effect.

Just some food for thought, and as such, represents my own imperfect understanding of the actual mechanisms, as trasnlated into layman's terms.

[ 2) In your average round 26 gauge wire, all things being equal (assuming a continuum), what's the effective area.vs.frequency (as LFs retract from the surface & HFs migrate to the surface both using less of the physically available wire)? ]

It helps to keep in mind that the skin depth of a conductor is NOT absolute, that is the very definition of the skin depth is the point where the current flow is down to 37% of the total, hence, there is a continuous change between the current density at the surface, and the current density toward the center.

In copper, the skin depth is commonly refered to at 20 kHz as 0.463 mm, and many take this to mean that if you have a 20 gauge wire, with a typical diameter of 0.813 mm, and less than twice this skin depth, that there will be no difference for the current flow for the highs and lows. Obviously, if the skin depth is not absolute, and the depth only refers to a relevant point on the curve of current reduction, then this is a false and misleading concept.

Hence, for a 26 gauge wire, the current flow in the center at 20 Khz will be down to roughly 2/3 that of the surface. While the net effect in terms of ONLY total resistance of the wire at 20 Hz, vs, 20 kHz is not that great, I think the fact that the current is still being pushed out toward the surface, even in such a small wire, is significant. It obviouisly means that surface conditions for the wire are important in terms of cyrstaline integrity, freedom from contaminants, including silver plating.

[ 3) I've found it interesting while measuring tweeters that the skin-effect reduction of used VC wire disguises itself well with the inductance of the "Le" driver, since the resistance increases much like
inductance behaves. However, the real portion of impedence drops the current so the subsequent effective inductance drops too. With your cable experience & measuring equipment you may find this phenomenon interesting too. FWIW, the phase seems to behave assymptoticly to about 45-degrees (rather than the expected 90) among the better tweeters that I bothered measuring. ]

Are you sure it is the skin effect that is causing the inductive behavior, or the more likely and ordinary self-inductance of the coil of wire that is the voice coil? Tweeters have several factors that cause the behavior of the drive unit as a whole to deviate from pur inductive behavior, including motional impedance effects, resonances, etc.

[ 4) Does the actual signal travel inside group velocity envelopes where voice can be distorted by its composite Fourier frequencies travel at independent speeds? Thus, the signal reconstruction may defacto phase the vocal components forever loosing the character of the signal. ]

While there may be a phase shift effect as you traverse the audio spectrum, the amount is going to be very small due to typical LCR values. Now for some cables, where the designer uses atypical LCR values to optimize for one aspect, and then uses a compensating network to bring the total impedance (and possibly the phase shift) back under control, the amount of phase shift that the uncompensated cable might have would be much higher, and the network then has a profound effect on the end result. However, the total sum of the cable and network is what you would comapre to another cable, and it being less than totally perfect in this single regard may be overshadowed by the other factor that were optimized for in that particular design.

----------------SIGNAL
[ 5) Why would conductor penetration into the metallurgicly superior portion (larger grains exhibiting lower resistance) of the wire delay a signal more than HFs which travel under worse conditions (more contaminants & higher gain boundary density) & lower effective area? Is this some sort of venturi effect? ]

See answer to #1. If the conductor IS different, then it would HAVE to affect the signal differently.

Jon Risch

 

FWIW ..., posted on July 23, 1999 at 22:50:33
Mart


 
1) I usually define effective area as the continuum integral of the current density about the crossectional surface divided by the maximum.

2) I haven't run across an example where it wasn't true that the nature oif the exterior was different that its interior. Whether by different rates of cooling causing different grain size & lattice phases; or, the thermal stresses that occur by the exterior solidifying first; or, that through stochastic anomalies processing such as extrusion voids & dislocations migrate to the surface; or, that the hot worked surface is exposed prior to insulation.

3) I've been contemplating this issue for a while now & I `think' that the main problem of plating would probably exist even if the 2 metals were somehow shrunk fit onto one another w/o any contaminants. Why? I believe it's the very nature of the gradient of the current isn't sufficient to preclude the signal from the Cu to corrupt that from the Ag & vice versa. I'd liken the phenom to wiring a 1uF Solen & a 2uF Musicap in parallel. Between the w2 different speeds & voices, you have a disaster in the making. By no means, do I intend to any way diminish your concerns which are indeed valid, but I don't foresee even the consequential capacitive inclusions destroying the vary nature of the sound quite as much as the aforementioned.

4) As far as the resistance (not just impedence) increasing with frequency, I know of no other source for methodicly consistent results demonstrating a monotonic curve above `Rmin', which reduces your effective `Le' that I define as Im[Z]/(2*Pi*f). I therefore believe that this is consistant with reduction in effective crossectional are. As the usable area vanishes the resistance increases, thus depleting the current to voltage ratio, thereby ruining the inductance of the VC.

 

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