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DC Cable Comparisons

76.87.201.57
Posted on October 10, 2020 at 19:53:54
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000




DC CABLE COMPARISONS

Never the one to leave well-enough alone, I installed a DC jack on the Allo Shanti LPS to do some DC cable comparisons for fun. I've probably spent hundreds of hours comparing interconnects, speaker cables, digital cables, power cables, etc, over the years, but not too many people have directly compared DC cables, including myself, so I ordered a bunch of Schurter DC connectors and wires.

The previously hard-wired VH Audio 18 AWG unicrystal OCC copper in Airlok (foamed teflon) sounds very clear, linear, with tons of detail, without any artificial bloat or blur. What more could one ask for? Actually, when compared to certain other types of wire and especially my battery power supply, there is a slight emphasis on vividness and presence, right around the vocal range. In non-DC applications, I have noted similar findings more with solid-core cable compared to stranded and also teflon-type dielectrics, although foamed teflon is far preferable over solid teflon for my taste.

Canare 4S6 Star Quad has neither solid core wire nor teflon dielectric. It uses 20 AWG stranded copper in polyethylene dielectric in Star Quad configuration for 17 AWG per leg and has become quite popular for DC cable application in DIY and boutique shop communities. Canare essentially walked the opposite line from Airlok wire. Switching from Airlok, Canare sounded extra rich, warm, with more bass quantity although not as tight. Highs were smoother and creamier, although bit darker overall. Male vocals especially shined with this cable in girth and foundation, and thin rock recordings were more forgiving.

Airlok and Canare were quite a bit apart in their presentations, so I decided to throw in the stock Shanti DC wire to establish a baseline. The stock Shanti comes with hard-wired 60" DC cable, which is way too long IMO. In DC application, conductor diameter and length really matter, so I cut the 60" stock cable into 20," which resulted in a nice improvement in sound quality. This also resulted in a conundrum, because the shortened stock cable actually fit somewhere between Airlok and Canare in terms of subjective frequency balance. Stock had less bright and vivid presentation than Airlok but more presence than Canare. Airlok and Canare both sounded more "expensive," Airlok with superlative clarity and Canare with pleasing velvety richness. One could argue the shortened stock cable sounded bit more grainy, less suave, but its tonal balance was actually closer to my battery reference. It also lacked some low bass weight compared to battery reference.

My next desired step is to try some stranded OCC copper Star Quad, but such a thing does not seem to exist. If anyone knows of similar wire, do let me know. Closest thing I see is VH Audio V-Quad Cu21, but it's solid core, not stranded, and ends up being 18 AWG per leg in Airlok, which I already tried.

For now, it's rather hilarious, but I am using the stock Shanti cable doubled-up in "Shotgun" mode...

 

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RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 10, 2020 at 20:51:39
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I recently converted my DAC from 'wall wart' to a battery pack of 8xAA.
And while I havent' gotten into the weeds with it, I believe I DO prefer the batteries.
Next step may be a AGM or 'other' lead-acid battery of maybe 6 or 7 amp hours. That would provide nearly unlimited (for the application) instantanous current and make it necessary to install a fuse of some sort. Original wall-wart is 2 amp, so I guess that's where I'd start.....I'd use a ceramic / filled type. Good self damping if that matters and meets spec for such a device.

Some interesting wire choices from battery TO device are possible. The Canare is easily available while some of the single crystal copper won't break the bank, especially considering how LITTLE of it I actually need.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 11, 2020 at 01:04:34
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002



It's not OCC wire, but VH Audio's 4 x 18 Star Quad stranded AirLok cable with a 15 AWG aggregate gauge is a fine choice for medium and high current applications.

 

CU-21, posted on October 11, 2020 at 04:26:12
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 Interesting comments on the DC cables. Thanks for posting them.

I suggest you try the VH CU-21 quad cable. Even though it is solid core, it seems to have some good things going for it at least on paper. I recently rebuilt the outboard power supply of my tube phono preamp, and I used two lengths of CU-21 for the umbilical, one for the B+ and B- runs and the other for the DC heater lines. Each cable has two conductors in parallel. I like the sound but there were enough other changes that I can't say for sure what the cable contributed.

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 11, 2020 at 09:55:13
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 7732
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
 Is it the lack of dynamics from the batteries that you prefer pg??


So let us stop talkin' falsely now, the hour's getting late --
Robert Allen Zimmerman

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 11, 2020 at 10:42:42
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 A fair question which will require some serious listening. Maybe in a few days when I have some slack time. Lots of irons in the fire prevent anything approaching 'serious' listening.

Right now? Must g start setting up the Grill (Charcoal) and maybe work on the BBQ box......I need to SAND the top of the lid and PAINT for the winter. Just the tip of the'berg.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: CU-21, posted on October 11, 2020 at 13:33:06
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002



VH Audio V-Quad Cu21 AirLoK cable.

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 12, 2020 at 13:37:35
Dynobot
 Solid core findings, I found the same thing to be true, with regards to power cord applications using solid-core wire.

Much prefer stranded for any power application.

My ears seem to like solid-core for IC's and Digital -only-. Speaker and Power my ears like stranded. As long as they do the listening, I have no choice but to do what they say....


 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 14, 2020 at 07:44:22
CG
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: October 11, 2000
 Here is something to think about.

If your wire is truly only carrying DC, the only consideration is the resistance.

But, that's not likely to be the case. The current demand is probably constantly changing with program material, which therefore means it's carrying AC in some form. There's very likely unwanted currents, both differential mode and common mode, traveling where you don't want them to go (like through the AC wiring in the wall). There's also various coupling mechanisms that can add unwanted signals onto the cable that can also pollute the components connected to this DC connection. And, more.

So, you're left with a dilemma. Do you try to fix the core problem (for lack of a better word) or try to apply some mediation through tweaking the cabling for your particular installation? Both?

Once again, I am NOT suggesting at all that cables don't matter. See above. I am also NOT negating your observations. I have no reason to suspect that you are just imaging this - I've certainly experienced the same.

I'm only suggesting that you might gain more by going beyond cabling experiments. YMMV and all that applies.

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 14, 2020 at 17:35:31
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Jon L is actually quite experienced at tweaking, including parts upgrades, not just cabling. Every bit of wire and cables in a system contribute towards the sonic signature of a custom tuned audiophile system. Experiments with many DIY DC umbilical build projects over the years has shown substantial differences in sound, not unlike the effect of a power cord upgrade with particular AC connectors. A good sounding DC umbilical should be considered like choosing excellent internal wiring for an audio component. Different types of cabling, gauges, and connectors tend to make a great impact on the sound, in one way or another for a particular application.

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 14, 2020 at 19:37:25
CG
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: October 11, 2000
 To Jon L: I hope you understood that I was not impugning or otherwise questioning your experimental or observational skills. That certainly was not my intent. I was just offering a different perspective of something else you could investigate in the spirit of trying to assist. Clearly, when the cabling on a DC connection is making that much of a difference, it means that there are AC currents (AC being the 60 Hz variety, noise currents, or even signal currents) going where you don't want them to. The right cable can certainly help with regard to some of these, but not all. Good luck with your experiments.

To Duster: I realize that I should've known better than to offer any help. Thanks for the reminder.

To Jon R: No need to show me the door...

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 15, 2020 at 00:19:26
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I don't know why you took it that way. I was contributing to the thread. Perhaps you sensed disagreement that AC currents going where you don't want them to has to do with the benefit of, or the different flavors due to various DC umbilicals. I'm sure Jon L will be glad to respond. Sorry for the misunderstanding, CG.

 

There's no problem here at all, posted on October 15, 2020 at 02:32:23
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000
 What you posted didn't seem off-putting to me at all.
It got me thinking about AC currents again. I already regenerate my AC and also use DIY AC grounding station, but yeah, there's only so much an individual can do about household power..

 

solid Duelund the best for DC cable IME, posted on October 15, 2020 at 08:05:23
paco
Audiophile

Posts: 1520
Joined: April 26, 2000
 after building many prototypes, for some time i believed the VH Audio unicrystal OCC solid copper in Airlok to be the best for this application, but then i discovered something WAY better: Duelund AWG 20 CC08, solid copper wire, in cotton & oil insulated

two runs twisted makes a probably unbeatable DC cable; not easy to solder though, but once done it's really great; i believe this is due to the fact that no plastic is involved at all; as usual, this is to my ears, in my system, for my music and taste

i'm using one just now... :)

 

Does it sound like tin-plated Duelund?, posted on October 15, 2020 at 09:32:02
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000
 I've used both Western Electric and Duelund tin-plated copper wire for signal applications, and at this point, I'm not sure I like this "tone wire" sound.
Then again, DC is a different animal, and the stuff is inexpensive enough to experiment. I just don't want to lose significant amount of transparency and top-end extension.

 

RE: Does it sound like tin-plated Duelund?, posted on October 15, 2020 at 10:54:38
paco
Audiophile

Posts: 1520
Joined: April 26, 2000
 nope, this is no tinned, just solid copper, being the dielectric the important element: cotton in oil

 

RE: Does it sound like tin-plated Duelund?, posted on October 15, 2020 at 11:08:05
TanteJuut
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Joined: February 29, 2020
 Shielding your DC cable with an external braided shield (and a drain wire attached to the end points of the shield) made a great improvement in my setup.

It is called JSSG 360, and there is a lot of info about this subject on the computer audiophile website. It creates a faraday cage around your cable and blocks leakage current from stray voltages generated inside your cable or from induction of external sources.

I have it applied on DC, USB, Ethernet and have gained massive noise reduction (blacker background) in my setup. Some people doubt the shielding effectiveness (compared to unshielded, floating shield, one end connected shield etc...), but my ears tell me something else.

My current DC cable is a mundorf silver gold in starquad with JSSG 360 shield. I haven't tested duelund yet.



 

RE: Does it sound like tin-plated Duelund?, posted on October 15, 2020 at 11:52:45
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Good point, TanteJuut. Experiments with braided copper shielded twisted pair DC umbilical builds provide notable benefit.

The self-shielding geometry of a cross-connected star quad VH Audio V-Quad DC umbilical is very beneficial in this regard.

 

JSSG 360, posted on October 15, 2020 at 12:37:43
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000
 Have you tried A-B listening comparisons with the external wire on vs off the shield?

BTW, how did you get the Mundorf wire into star quad geometry, hand twist?

 

RE: Does it sound like tin-plated Duelund?, posted on October 15, 2020 at 14:43:37
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 It seems Dueland implements the oil in order to make the cotton less permeable to air. However, hydrocarbon lubrication oils have a dielectric constant from 2.1 to 2.8 which is just as much or higher than a solid (not foamed) polyethylene dielectric. It would be interesting to know what the dielectric constant of their oil impregnated cotton insulation is vs. Jupiter's non-oiled cotton insulated wires.

 

Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 16, 2020 at 17:57:10
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000
 nt

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 17, 2020 at 03:19:52
TanteJuut
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Joined: February 29, 2020
 Dear Jon.

I have made the starquad myself. The measurements on the JSSG 360 tweak shows no improvement. I have read also a paper on ASR about this subject (and the explanation of John Swenson himself). The ASR folks could not find a plausible explanation or effect of the self shielding. But, maybe they are measuring the wrong parameter. My hypothesis is that residual AC on the DC line (through parasitic capacitance, inducing a voltage and causing leakage current) is being shunted by the self shielding braid, and that picked up/sent out RFI is shunted also (reduced antenna effect). Maybe the tweak is beneficial for other cables/the cable salad behind my rack (less noise pick up) and is the performance gain more indirect.

I have investigated this tweak with multiple cables (DC, USB, interconnects, ethernet) and there is always a reduced noise floor in my system (bigger & tighter bass, blacker background, more air/halo's around individual elements in the mix) when I applied this tweak. I am not an advocate of shielding everything because it can choke the sound. I just experiment back and forth until I am happy.

With kind regards, Judith

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 17, 2020 at 11:07:51
Alfred H
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Joined: August 28, 2005
 Hi Jon,
Can you post a pic of the DC jack you've installed onto your Allo Shanti ?

Thanks

 

RE: DC Cable Comparisons, posted on October 17, 2020 at 15:38:15
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000
 I bought these because they seemed to have the smallest diameter plastic body, which I thought would fit the pre-existing cable hole on Shanti, or at least fit with some sanding down.

However, I ended up having to widen the hole on face of shanti anyway, so I would probably just buy a sturdier DC jack.

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 17, 2020 at 16:01:53
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Hi TanteJuut,

A typical unshielded zip cord or twisted pair DC umbilical can attract RFI and is vulnerable to EMI due to the inductance of the conductors. The self-shielding aspect of the cross-connected star quad geometry helps to control the magnetic fields and lowers inductance considerably, as well as providing substantially better noise cancellation of RFI that rides on the DC umbilical. A DC umbilical with a braided shield can also be beneficial, with the most critical DC umbilical of all in my collection being a shielded design. The additional capacitance might even be of some benefit in terms of noise reduction.

Unless I'm completely unaware of the difference between a DC umbilical and internal DC wiring, AC is not an issue to consider any more than AC is something to be concerned about in terms of the internal wiring of a power supply section of an audio component without an external power supply. There is no metal enclosure to shield an external DC umbilical vs. internal DC wiring, and any internal wiring is in fact more prone to AC noise than a DC umbilical, as internal signal wiring often needs to be shielded with a braided shield unless a listener enjoys the sound of horrific hum produced by the adjacent power supply section located within the enclosure.

If any articles or reports are found that support the notion of AC otherwise affecting a DC umbilical, I'd be pleased to know any links to them.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 18, 2020 at 04:04:21
TanteJuut
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Joined: February 29, 2020
 Hello Duster,

I will post them ASAP. It is a personal hypothesis. I am investigating the effect of AC/DC leakage currents, parasitic capacitance and stray voltages on audio equipment. I think the JSSG 360 Loop breaks unwanted low level current flow between components.

At the end, my ears tell me that it works. I am also eager to find a good explanation why this kind of shielding works.

Cheers Juut

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 18, 2020 at 05:12:25
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002



I found some information about the tweak and don't agree with the premise. I discontinued reading when the single grounding point of a Faraday cage seemed to be a disagreeable thing. The image shown above is involved with a metal outdoor shed that acts as a Faraday cage. It's a single ground wire with a strap to be attached to a metal pipe or rod as an earth ground. Affixing yet another wire to the braided shield of a cable and attaching it someplace where it does not belong might be a measurable thing, but it's not a Faraday cage which has been successfully implemented by just about any field of interest for the purpose. If the fellow wants to fiddle with such a thing, there should be no unreasonable claim of superiority vs. a classic Faraday cage, IMO.

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 18, 2020 at 06:27:48
TanteJuut
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Joined: February 29, 2020
 The closed loop of the shield wire is responsible for the noise reduction effect and creating an effective faraday cage. A lot of folks on the computer audiophile website reported the same effect in their systems. If you want an explanation from me or you just want to say that you are not (scientifically) convinced, then I am fine with that. That happens always with audiophiles. I shared my experience & I am happy with the results. Enjoy your sunday.

Juut.

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 18, 2020 at 13:06:48
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Juut,

This is an audio forum where matters like this are discussed. I'm not trying to personally give you a hard time, I'm questioning a tweak that is said to be an effective Faraday cage. A Faraday cage is already effective. I'm not one to hold a banner of science up in the air since I tend to be a subjectivist, but to postulate that a conventional Faraday cage is not effective, and that the notion of a closed loop was somehow missed by electrical engineers for many decades now is an extraordinary claim. If you would rather not discuss the matter, that is your prerogative.

Maybe someone else will take a look at the claim. Have a nice Sunday, too.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 18, 2020 at 13:54:29
Dynobot
 Audiophiles are a curious bunch

They 'believe' better sound is achievable, as evidenced by their constant buying [upgrading, tweaking etc]....but are never convinced when someone claims to have achieved better sound.

In essence they believe something to be true, but deny anyone who claims to have actually made it happen.


Then there are those who can imagine better sound just by reading numbers. I even read a post where someone could actually here jitter in the Pico-seconds....ie That is one trillionth, or one millionth of one millionth of a second, or 0.000 000 000 001 seconds.


Amazing!!!

For example, these days your Dac is crap if it doesn't have a "Femto-second" clock. DACs with clocks with only accuracy in the Pico-seconds just don't sound as good due to all that nasty jitter. People will swear they can easily hear a Femtosecond clock vs a Picosecond clock. Femtosecond - A femtosecond is equal to 1000 attoseconds, or 1/1000 picosecond...wow! Imagine that!!! 50+ year old ears that can hear that well, when hearing only gets worse with age. I'd imagine they could hear so well at 20yr old that they could hear what people were thinking.

And wire is another story....6N silver all over the place....which is actually purer than anyone can achieve. But hey, an Audiophile can easily hear the difference between 4N [probably the most expensive and purest] vs the magical 6N.


 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 19, 2020 at 03:53:27
TanteJuut
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Joined: February 29, 2020
 I am not making a claim. I have said already that I have personal hypothesis about this subject. And that is currently the right position for my point of view. Calling it fiddling is belittling. Swenson and the folks on ASR and Computer Audiophile are also thumbling around this subject and there are some great engineers that can not explain nor measure the effect either. I know that Phasure USB is going over the top with multiple interconnected shields (and getting good reviews)

By connecting a thin wire between the end points of the braid you form a closed circuit for a small (internal or external induced) current to flow. That is a different connection scheme from the floating shield, or 1 point type of shielding strategy that we all have used for a long time. Is it shunting/shorting what is causing the effect? Is it the breaking of the leakage current between components? Is it reduced antenna effect, is the RFI trapped in the loop? Is the shield charged by the small electric current and therefore acting as a better kind of shield? I am also interested in good answers, as I like explanations myself, but for the moment I am happy fiddling around.

Saying this is a forum is correct, but I am not obligated to have a discussion nor answering questions from anyone who make subjective remarks a lot of the time (connector a, plating b, cable c etc..).

Cheers Juut

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 19, 2020 at 07:02:26
Dynobot
 Your hypothesis is as good as any.

You don't need a White-Paper or Peer-Reviewed scientific evidence supported by an elite group of scientists, along with published peer-reviewed journals.

If it works it works...30% of men respond to a placebo vs Viagra, can't tell those 30% the wood isn't real.

If it works it works.


I've experimented with various things over the years, some with very positive results. I don't even bother to share, due to all the negativism...I just enjoy it myself and move on.


 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 19, 2020 at 10:32:25
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 7732
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
 Where can I buy those placebo pills!


So let us stop talkin' falsely now, the hour's getting late --
Robert Allen Zimmerman

 

RE: Ordered some..will see (nt), posted on October 19, 2020 at 10:38:28
Dynobot


This is also appropriate for the Audiophiles...seeking improvements

LOL!!

The Internet[s]




 

RE: JSSG 360 Theory, posted on October 24, 2020 at 09:13:35
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 One's listening experience always tops any theoretical considerations.

We may not know exactly WHY a tweak works, but if it does result in better sound to a group of enthusiasts, and we can't seem to measure a difference, then we probably just don't know what to measure or where or how to measure to ascertain the differences.

That said, I wanted to comment on the JSSG 360 basics.

RE the JSSG Theory involving an extra wire to be connected at both ends of a cable shield for maximizing shielding, there appears to be some mistaken and/or conflicting information presented.

First, a classic Faraday cage or cable shield, no matter how it is connected, will not shield against a static (DC) EMI field.

Yet in John Swenson's post at computeraudiophile, he states:
"The best way for shielding to work properly is a separate wire connected to each end of the shield. This is sufficient for shielding from DC to very high frequencies."

The part about a Faraday cage shielding from a DC field is just plain wrong. Not going to be able to do anything about a DC field.

IF the added wire connected at each end is actually going to have a beneficial effect for AC fields, then it's effect will be limited to the bandwidth it can handle, what it can actually pass.
This simple single wire will become inductive relatively quickly as the frequency increases, thus it's effectiveness at radio frequencies (much less VHF) will be very poor, if there is even any significant conduction at all.

In order to maximize the loop shielding effect, then this "extra wire" would actually need to be another layer of coaxial shield insulated from the inner shield, and connected at both ends, etc. Then it might at least be able to operate up to some high frequency effectively.
Interestingly enough, this is usually how a triaxial coax cable is connected.

However, the very principal that a Faraday cage operates on does not depend on an additional conductive loop outside the cage, as the conductive material of the cage itself, if it is going to function as a Faraday cage, will be conductive, and the "loop" he refers to is occurring inside the conductor itself. If it did not, then there would be no Faraday cage shielding effect.

Is it possible that adding an encompassing layer of insulated conductor outside a single layer Faraday cage would add to the total shielding effect? It is entirely possible, as you have now "double-caged" the enclosed space.
Any leakage through the first box/cage would then be intercepted by the inner box/cage and further reduced.

To illustrate my point about the use of a second braided shield over the first one to complete the JSSG loop for increased effectiveness and a wider bandwidth, think in terms of a classic Faraday cage that had a single wire looped around the out side and connected at one side and then the other side of the cage. Is this going to be as effective as a complete second cage in boosting the shielding? Not likely.

So for those who like what the single wire does for their wiring/shielding situation, I suggest that you try a complete added braided shield over the first shield. Take a suitable cheap coaxial cable apart to use just the braid, most braids can be expanded some to go over larger diameter cables, you just have to allow for the shrinkage in terms of extra length of sacrificial cable you are using to provide the braid.
The connections can be of a hard connection type (direct soldered connection), or through an RF grade capacitor that would then tend to pass mostly RF frequencies, say a 0.1 uF cap or perhaps even a smaller one at 0.01 uF. Of course, a mix of a hard connect at one end, and a capacitor termination at the other is worth a try as well.

I also caution against letting the shield "float" without any type of ground at all, either it or the added conductor can then act as an antenna at certain frequencies, so grounding it at one end or the other, or through an RF grade capacitor at one end or the other, would certainly be something that should be tried, and as long as it did not noticeably degrade the sound, I would leave it in place for a future potential RF event to be controlled if needed.


Jon Risch

 

RE: JSSG 360 Theory, posted on October 24, 2020 at 10:16:18
rivervalley817
 yes, yes, and yes, very well stated

plus [overall] coaxial has greater bandwidth to boot!

with regards,



 

Duelund 20 AWG Copper in Cotton/Oil is here, posted on October 24, 2020 at 11:10:11
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6063
Joined: April 6, 2000






Two things struck me first.
With only the cotton jacket, stated 20 AWG feels very skinny, and my impulse is to double them up per leg, but we will stick to one wire per leg for now.

Non air-tight dielectric on bare copper brings concern over oxidation, and I suppose that's why Western Electric and most Duelund is tin-plated copper. After stripping the cotton, the copper did seem duller than usual, so I sanded it slightly before soldering (photo). We shall see how this sounds as DC cable after some settling down.

==============
More Comparisons.

Duelund copper in cotton/oil makes for an involving-sounding DC cable. Its calling card is richer, denser midrange, quite a bit more so than Airlok 18 AWG, which in comparison adds supertweeter-like topmost air at the price of a slightly more "shiny" or artificial upper-mids. Bass on both is stupendously good both in quantity and definition.

Depending on one's system and tastes, I can see one choosing one over the other. Those who absolutely cannot stand plastic/teflon shine will gravitate toward Duelund, whereas those who place a premium on uppermost air and last pixel of resolution will prefer the Airlok.

As an aside, the stock Shanti DC cable really lacked iron-fisted bass impact of others even after being shortened, so I made a cable with double runs of the stock cable. Top-end extension and overall resolution is quite shy of above cables, and bass still lacks iron-fisted definition. However, bass quantity and bloom increased nicely, and the overall tonality and presentation sort of reminds me of certain aspects of big Harbeth speakers. This is a viable option for those times when you are not in analytical mood.

 

Totally agree!, posted on October 25, 2020 at 08:18:02
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 I have been trying the same Duelund 20g wire in my phono preamp the past few days, and I agree 100% with what JonL said. I would actually have used many of the same words to describe what I am hearing.

My application is a bit different. So far I am using it only in the high-voltage B+ runs in my tube phono preamp. These carry 210v and 175v DC. In each case I replaced a Neotech 20g solid copper with Teflon insulation which was previously my go-to wire for B+ connections. It now looks like I will be rewiring some amps as well.

A hearty Thank You to "paco" for bringing this wire to our attention.

By the way, this particular Duelund wire is easy to strip. The cotton/oil insulation is different from that on the Duelund silver ribbon wire which was not easy at all to terminate.

I would be cautious about wire placement if the Duelund is carrying high voltage. I have no idea what the maximum voltage rating is for the cotton insulation and it is thinner than the used in the silver ribbon wires. In my case, I just made sure the high-voltage wires are not touching other wires or any metal parts inside the chassis.

 

you are more than welcome! (nt), posted on October 26, 2020 at 00:53:41
paco
Audiophile

Posts: 1520
Joined: April 26, 2000
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