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Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps

70.190.232.127

Posted on January 26, 2023 at 00:29:15
jeffreybehr
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These poweramps, known hereafter as A-Ds, arrived this week very well packed, and I got them running very quickly driving my HHR TLS-2s...
https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/37/377706.html

As I 'knew', their around-150 Watts of max. power into 6 Ohms are more than enough to drive my 86dB-insensitive speakers to high levels.

They sounded plenty fine even cold from the UPS truck, and they'll be making music 24/7 for a few weeks while 'burning in', which is a questionable term to use with amps that get not even warm.

More later.

 

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RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 03:41:18
ASR has some thoughts

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/atma-sphere-class-d-ganfet-amplifiers.31089/


$5400.00 for class D amps?

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 04:47:30
Ozzy
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"ASR has some thoughts"

ASR always has some thoughts. I'd last about five minutes in there...










Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 06:01:00
airtime
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Those amps were four grand!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oy gevalt, I'm in the wrong business. That's like a 2000% profit margin.

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 07:03:52
G Squared
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Jeff

You are on a roll. Have fun, enjoy the new speakers and amps.

I am sure everything sounds great. I'd be interested to know what tracks are outstanding on your omni system. I have s set of monitors and a set of panel speakers that I swap into my system. A set of omnis may be a good third speaker variety for my set up.


Gsquared

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 08:23:39
Ralph
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Those amps were four grand!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless I'm mistaking the meaning of this sentence, this statement is false.

 

I have had all three ......., posted on January 26, 2023 at 09:29:43
trioderob
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the experience is completely different with omnis in that they are much more coherent then box speakers - yet have a sweet spot that to an extreme degree is larger than planer speakers.

the imagining is very different then lets say a co axial point source such as a tannoy , the new mofi or some of the genelec monitors which give absolutely pinpoint accurate placement of the instruments and singers - its more diffuse yet more natural - its more like you are in a concert hall then in a anechoic chamber.

they are incredible

the problem is you cant just buy a used pair of Ohm speakers and think you are getting the real experience - you need to buy a set of TRUE WALSH SPEAKERS - which were only the F or A MODELS and out of production for decades - all of those have fallen apart at this point due to the materials implemented OR you can buy - as in this case - a very limited production and expensive revamp of the Ohm F from just a handful of sources such as what HHR or German Physiks makes .....the othe good option is the MBL omnis which use different technology

 

+1. I'd say 5 minutes is a push...maybe 90 seconds tops., posted on January 26, 2023 at 09:40:22
Mick Wolfe
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NT

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 10:09:16
AbeCollins
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Is that also a PS Audio S300 stereo amp in your system? I'd be curious to know how that amp compares to your Atma-Sphere Class D monoblocks. Thanks!



 

Construction comment, posted on January 26, 2023 at 11:34:08
Mike B.
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It looks like a lot of effort and refinement went into the power supply.


 

You're confusing margin with markup, posted on January 26, 2023 at 11:57:32
E-Stat
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That's like a 2000% profit margin.

Even if you have zero in cost (clearly not the case here), profit margin can only be 100%.

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 12:32:27
airtime
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Yes, I was incorrect. They're more like $5.4k.

I'm sorry, but looking at the innards - that's ridiculous

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 12:56:37
ejk
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Enjoy the amps.

 

Not if its made in the US and built properly. , posted on January 26, 2023 at 13:04:50
Ralph
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The chassis is built strong enough to support the power transformer without deformation in shipping. Its all hand-built including the circuit boards using good quality parts instead of the bargain basement stuff.

A lot of the amps you see are made in China and don't support local dealers.

I've seen enough Chinese-built class D amps to know that the technique they use to deal with FCC part 15 is an old method known as 'lying'.

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 13:41:38
ASR is like most audio forums. A big echo chamber.
You have to be able to apply a filter quickly and efficiently or you can easily get bogged down in pages and pages of the same shtick.

AA is much like that as well.

Dave.

 

Abe, in the pic is one PS Audio Stellar M1200 just resting there..., posted on January 26, 2023 at 14:19:48
jeffreybehr
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...as I have WAY too many poweramps around, most remaining from my evaluation of minimum-30-Watt SETs last summer.. Still to sell are pairs of DeHavilland 845Gs, Opera 845s, and Viva Auroras.. Also, eventually, pairs of PSA Stellar M1200s and M700s.

 

Omni Speakers, posted on January 26, 2023 at 15:51:50
cawson@onetel.com
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Interesting comment on imaging. I recently auditioned both MBL and German Physics omnis, but being used to Avantgarde horns, I found the imaging so poor I passed on both without even a home demo. Pity as my room begs for omnis as the speakers are placed mid-room with my listening area in front, but the dining and kitchen areas behind the speakers. This makes horns a poor choice for these areas. However the sound is so good in front, I'm having to forego the advantages of omnis .

 

RE: You're confusing margin with markup, posted on January 26, 2023 at 16:00:13
cawson@onetel.com
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Back to school!

If the build cost was 100 units and the selling price is 200, then the mark-up is 100%. If the selling price is 300, the mark-up is 200%. Simple

If the build cost is zero and the selling price is a penny, the mark=up is infinity.

Compare the price of a pair of these monos with any Class A or AB or tube amp of similar sound quality (if you can even find one) and it appears to me that the price is very reasonable.

I'm waiting for the same amp modules built into an integrated amp (hopefully with DAC) and I'm on board!

 

Enjoy your new amps..., posted on January 26, 2023 at 17:19:47
musetap
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Looks like top quality work and effort went into them!

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: You're confusing margin with markup, posted on January 26, 2023 at 17:50:15
Posts: 2760
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And Atma-Sphere has a dealer network. I don't know what margin they take but if we assume 50% that makes the math(s) easy so they buy the amps for half of what they sell it for. If Ralph also takes a 50% margin then the cost of all parts and direct labor must half of what he sells it for. And then R&D, overheads and Ralph's lavish lifestyle :) are paid for out of his margin dollars (roughly 25% of what you pay)

 

Profit margins are the typical retail metric...., posted on January 26, 2023 at 17:50:53
Rod M
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A $100 price with a cost of $30 is a 70% margin. If you're selling through dealers, margins are typically 40-60% for dealers and a manufacturer needs another 40-50% to stay in business, so a manufacturer needs to make a product for $25 or less for a $100 retail item.


-Rod

 

RE: Omni Speakers, posted on January 26, 2023 at 17:59:50
G Squared
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I was peeking at your system and noticed a similarity.

Our music genre description

Here is mine.

Everything except really hard rock, nasty rap and opera
Gsquared

 

thats funny ,,,,,,, posted on January 26, 2023 at 18:15:08
trioderob
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I never likes the Avantguards - I found them to be very "shouty"

To each his own I guess

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 18:24:33
AbeCollins
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Lets us know how they sound. Thanks!



 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 26, 2023 at 20:25:06
milpai
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ASR - ah...-the Walmart of HiFi. Yeah fun read sometimes

 

RE: Omni Speakers, posted on January 26, 2023 at 22:27:15
KanedaK
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Yup, I guess Omnis are an acquired taste. I've listened to two omnidirectional speakers systems at the last audio show I attended, one was the big MBLs, the other one was a new small French company (and those aren't real Omnis but have their main driver firing upwards at an angle).
Both systems had great qualities of timber and dynamics but had a vague and diffuse soundstage that I couldn't stand. Fine for big orchestral works maybe, or choral music, but on a small jazz band you like to know where the singer is standing...
Maybe the setup was suboptimal, as everyone knows, audio shows are what they are, but still.
(disclaimer: I use horns, and tho my system is far from perfect, it does offer precise and solid positioning of instruments in the soundstage, that's even its most impressive trait according to fellow audiophiles who come to visit)

 

RE: Not if its made in the US and built properly. , posted on January 26, 2023 at 22:29:54
goryu
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Firstly, a linear supply is not necessary. A smps means you don't need to worry about constraining a heavy transformer, thus no need for an expensive case. I suppose though there are those who judge an amp by its weight and asking $5400 for something without machined aluminum and a heavy transformer would be a nonstarter.

Secondly, Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard perform better than this Atmos amp at a fraction of the cost without expensive boutique parts. Hasn't been any reliability issues with the Ncore modules that have a 10 year track record. Red herring.

Like I said, this amp is not a price/performance proposition.

 

Have you heard this amplifier? , posted on January 27, 2023 at 03:07:24
hawkmoon
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The proof is in the listening.

 

RE: "It looks like a lot of effort and refinement went into the power supply.", posted on January 27, 2023 at 03:52:25
Yup. $80 worth of Nichicon capacitors per side.

 

Purifi vs Hypex vs ICEPower, posted on January 27, 2023 at 04:18:15
I would urge those who hate ASR for their emphasis on 'measurements'
rather than AA's emphasis on what you can listen to with the amount of dollars you can spend on a hobby, the above amplifiers can be purchased for a mere pittance in relationship to the US manufacturer Atmasphere.

You can purchase from: Boxem, Apollon,Audiophonics,March Audio, or even US based: Buckeye amps and VTV amps.

It is better to save money these days.

 

You're Wrong!, posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:18:54
cawson@onetel.com
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> A $100 price with a cost of $30 is a 70% margin

No it's not - it's a $70 margin not a 70% one. In fact it's a 333% mark-up in percentage terms

 

RE: Not if its made in the US and built properly. , posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:22:15
cawson@onetel.com
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> Secondly, Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard perform better than this Atmos amp

Who says? See my reply to your earlier post and please respond. Thanks

 

RE: Bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D poweramps, posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:39:25
airtime
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I'm sure they will sound good - or else.

 

Human nature to discredit that which is not understood. nt, posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:46:43
goryu
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bt

 

No, that's opinion, not fact. nt, posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:48:49
goryu
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nt

 

The numbers don't lie. Several $1000 amps perform measureably better, posted on January 27, 2023 at 05:54:20
goryu
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than the Atmasphere amp. That's a fact. Which one "sounds" better, that's a personal opinion which can't be proven. Several have distortion below the audible limit unlike the Atmasphere amp. On a pure performance basis, the Atmasphere amp falls short of amps costing 1/5 the price.

 

The internet says otherwise..., posted on January 27, 2023 at 07:22:11
Rod M
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Try the margin calculator.

-Rod

 

RE: The internet says otherwise..., posted on January 27, 2023 at 07:41:40
cawson@onetel.com
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It's mark-up that matter in business. An item costing 30 units with a 70% mark-up sells at 51 units.

 

RE: The internet says otherwise..., posted on January 27, 2023 at 10:22:22
Sondek
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Which yields a 41.2% gross margin. I've heard it said that life begins at 40 ... 40% margin that is.

Been in the bidness world and in pricing and finance for 42 years, and have never encountered anybody concerned about markups. It's always about margins.

 

Look ma, no heat sinks!!! amazing n/t, posted on January 27, 2023 at 11:24:31
Ugly
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.

 

Ditto, posted on January 27, 2023 at 14:14:50
E-Stat
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I've been supporting multiple supply chain ERPs for decades and the key metric is margin%.

 

TYVM; I am.. (NT), posted on January 27, 2023 at 17:50:49
jeffreybehr
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.

 

Interesting, posted on January 27, 2023 at 18:54:33
milpai
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I thought humans listened through ears and not eyes which read measurement. If you go with science - ear is only the receptor. Brain processes the signal. Measurements of instruments are easy. Science has not come up with ways to measure how each human perceive music. Interestingly enough, we all hear the same sound (not music). But many don't care about hifi, while some of us are passionate. If everything was "standard measurement" then 100% of the human population would either have liked high fidelity or hated it. Fortunately it is not so.
At one point in human history, earth was flat. Till it was proved wrong. Hopefully as science advances, humans will know how (if not precisely, at least approximately) the billions of neurons work inside our brains. Meanwhile you guys continue to listen with you eyes ;-)

 

RE: Human nature to discredit that which is not understood. nt, posted on January 27, 2023 at 18:59:04
milpai
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Aren't you also discrediting the science that we cannot measure how each individual perceives music? No 2 human ears or brains are the same. How do you know what others can hear or differentiate? Currently science does not know this and you are discrediting it.
Hypocrisy ;-)

 

Mischaracterization, posted on January 27, 2023 at 19:58:37
goryu
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I don't recall saying that I don't listen, on the contrary, I have said the ears are the final arbiter in a purchase decision.

What I have said is exactly as you recount: there is no accounting for taste. Thus subjective reviews are useless in making purchase decisions.

Objective performance gives us the outline: power, distortion, frequency response with load, etc. From this we can determine if the amp will play nice in the system and other important factors. Further, we can determine in a general way how well it is designed and how close it comes to an ideal amplifier. These metrics help determine where an amp sits on a price-performance scale. It helps separate the large number of possibilities down to a few, making auditions more efficient and meaningful.

 

RE: Mischaracterization, posted on January 28, 2023 at 03:52:08
cawson@onetel.com
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> there is no accounting for taste. Thus subjective reviews are useless in making purchase decisions.

That is precisely who one should choose which reviewers to trust. Most online ones are not worth reading or worse still watching. Reputable publications will employ reviewers with a first class ear and have huge experience over a wide range of the type of equipment they are reviewing. Most importantly, they must have the command of English to describe in an easily understandable way, the character of the sound they hear in an accurate and non-judgemental way. Lastly if they don't much like the sound or certain aspects, they need to be able to convey this in an acceptably subtle so that readers get the "between-the-lines" description without the manufacturer (who probably advertises in the publication) being too upset!

Skipping past the text of a review to concentrate on what the measurement microphone reads is not the way to judge the sound being heard and certainly not the excitement factor (or otherwise) the equipment delivers.

I bought my first major ticket item (Avantgarde Uno speakers) almost entirely influenced by Robert Deutsch's excellent and highly descriptive review in Stereophile. Take a look - at the text, not the measurements!

PS - Where are the critical reviews of the Atma-sphere Class D amps you keep on about? Thanks

 

The subjective impressions, descriptions, preferences, opinions, etc. of others ..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 06:00:36
goryu
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have little to no relevance to my own evaluation process. Rooms are different, associated equipment is different, to begin with. Tastes, perceptions, experiences, etc., all differ in varying degrees from person to person. To one person, the sound is "bloated", to another, it's "full". To someone "accurate" is another's "clinical". And on and on it goes. Simply put, there is no accounting for differences of opinion and before I even consider a piece of equipment, I want to know the objective performance as a baseline- how close to ideal is the performance? When it comes to subjective evaluations, I can take it from there myself, thank you.

 

Yes, ASR has thoughts, as opposed to feelings...nt, posted on January 28, 2023 at 06:04:50
goryu
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nt

 

Then, Why are you rubbishing ...., posted on January 28, 2023 at 06:20:15
cawson@onetel.com
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> The subjective impressions, descriptions, preferences, opinions, etc. of others have little to no relevance to my own evaluation process.

Then why are you criticising the Atma-shere amp, presumably based entirely on what you've read or heard from some self-appointed "reviewer"?

You can't have it both ways - you dismiss descriptive reviews, yet you pass on reviewers' judgement on an amplifier you've never heard.

Please (third request) provide links to the reviews you claim consider the Atma-sphere Class D amp a poor (or even mediocre) product. Otherwise please do others a favour and shut up

 

Because that's what you do, posted on January 28, 2023 at 06:55:50
E-Stat
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when all you have is worthless charts as a reference.

 

RE: Then, Why are you rubbishing ...., posted on January 28, 2023 at 07:48:44
goryu
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I don't consider my recommendation to consider price-performance "rubbishing"...Is it really that hard to understand? Let me lay it out for as simply as I can:

The Atmasphere amp. by nearly all measures of performance, lags behind other class d amps by the likes of Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard.

The Atmasphere amp costs as much as 5 times what the better performing amps above cost.

The manufacturer has stated the extra cost is in the case work, higher wages stateside, and other factors which have nothing to do with the actual performance of the product. In other words, you are paying 5 times as much and getting less when it comes to what actually impacts sonics.

Maybe you like paying extra for less. Others, myself included, not so much. To each his own.

Now it's your turn, along with others, to chime in with your subjective opinions about how great it "sounds" at 5 times the price. Is it 5 times better? 3 times better? Please tell us exactly how many times "better" it may sound to justify a 5 times higher price... No, you can't, because your subjective opinions are not quantifiable. Some might say twice as good, others will in fact say it isn't worth the extra cost, and still others are likely to say it sounds worse. There is no right answer when it comes to opinion and that is why they have no real utility.

The best anyone can say rationally is in their opinion it sounds "better" than the above cheaper, better performing amps, and for them, it's a wonderful amp and a great value. Again, opinions are not facts. I have given you the indisputable fact that there are products at 1/5 the price that perform closer to that of an ideal amplifier. If you prefer fancy cases, made in the USA, dealer networks, racing stripes and fireworks, great, and are willing to pay extra for such, great, no one is stopping you. If you actually understand "the charts" and your purchases factor in real performance, there are other options available which perform at a higher level for less cost, which warrant consideration, as I have noted. I have not said you will prefer the cheaper alternatives but at 1/5 the cost I would think most would find the listen worth their time. If that causes you and others some sort of psychic distress, ignore it and move along.

 

RE: The numbers don't lie. Several $1000 amps perform measureably better, posted on January 28, 2023 at 10:16:32
morricab
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And you would know what that audible limit is or are you just speculating? I have seen no proof whatsoever that the audible limits have been reached. Amps that you would claim are below the audible limit not only sound different from ones where you would claim they are above the audible limit but sound different from their "inaudible brethren. Forget better for a moment, if an audible difference can be heard between so_called "perfect" amps then clearly there is something audible and a judgement can be made on better or worse... perhaps there will even be a consensus?

 

Most authoritative sources..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 10:41:55
goryu
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agree with the following:

"The human ear as a dynamic range from 0dB (threshold) to 120-130 dB. This is true for the middle frequency range (1-2 kHz). For lower or higher frequencies, the dynamic is narrowed."

Amps themselves do not make a "sound" obviously. Interactions with associated equipment, listener expectations/bias, distortion inherent to the amp, etc. can all contribute toward a perception of difference, real or imagined. One would expect an amp with measured distortion at 100W/1000Hz of -120dB to -130dB to have reached the limit of audibility for all intents and purposes.

 

If people want to buy the the Atmasphere Class D..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 10:47:29
Cougar
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let them, they are enjoying the music coming through and that is their CHOICE. You made your point but now you are just repeating yourself over and over like over on the ASR site. So to me, it's not about sharing of helpful info to others and seems more like something else cause you only seem to come out when it has to do with the Atmasphere Class D amp. Again, I would love to see what gear you are using in your home system. Hopefully one of those amps you keep praising.

Obviously you don't like this (haven't heard it) amp due to how it measures and cost but haven't mentioned even listening to it.

Just like cars, everyone has their likes and dislikes which is fine.

Btw, I have read a few posts that some of those other amps you are praising have had issues shutting down when driving 4 ohm loads and when playing above normal level/s for short period of time.


 

I wouldn't need to repeat myself if people wouldn't keep asking the same question..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 11:03:53
goryu
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I have never said buying an amp isn't one's choice. Yes, I point out the obvious price-performance shortfall of the Atmas amp because it is one of the most glaring disparities in the class d amp market. Most class d amps represent much better value/performance. There are others that don't, to be sure, but they rarely are brought up.

I have never seen any reports of Hypex, Purifi, or Orchard having issues with 4 ohm loads. Surely there are defective examples, there are always outliers in that regard. There are also possible issues with improperly implemented DIY builds. I don't consider this of interest. Feel free to support your claims with actual references.

 

Speaking of which, posted on January 28, 2023 at 12:29:30
E-Stat
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Btw, I have read a few posts that some of those other amps you are praising have had issues shutting down when driving 4 ohm loads...

I once tried the Hypex amp used in the garage system upstairs with the big stats. It was not happy and had a weird lack of center fill. Top end was decidedly grainy as compared to the VTLs. Definitely was not intended for reactive loads. Works great, however, with modified New Advents.

 

My Mesa Boogie D800+ head..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 12:41:34
Cougar
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Turned off a couple of times during gigs when I was pushing it hard with a 4ohm load. Good thing I had a backup. My Hartke HA-3500 Mosfet amp Which didn't flinch when I pushed it the same or even harder.

There are some post out there about people's Hypex and Ice power amps shutting off due to either reactive loads or heat during serious listening sessions.

The Crown XLS 1502 and XLS 2502 Drivecore amps I have got ok reviews over on ASR and which they praised the Hypex, Purifi and other Class D amps. One thing my Crowns have never ever done was shut down during on crazy loads like my Carver Amazings Silvers or Clearfield Continentals during some serious listening sessions when audio buddies come over and we had some drinks, always sound great and never stressed one bit. What good will a nice measuring amp be if it will shut down when pushed. Also, there are a lot of post that the Crowns work very well on reactive loads like Maggies. Maggie owners say their Maggies never sound so good.


 

What maggies present a reactive load? Do tell...nt, posted on January 28, 2023 at 12:52:23
goryu
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nt

 

See for yourselves..., posted on January 28, 2023 at 12:56:44
goryu
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Check it out...

 

RE: Then, Why are you rubbishing ...., posted on January 28, 2023 at 14:32:36
cawson@onetel.com
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Frankly you are making yourself sound absurd. You've not heard this amp and neither have I. You've offered no link to any review from a respected reviewer that compares the Atma-sphere with any of the other Class D technologies. The only link you've offer is to a forthcoming Live Stream video that doesn't appear to include the amp we are discussing. And anyway, this is the sort of "review" best ignored. I have no interest in watching video reviews conducted by someone I have no faith in.

Any Class D amp costing 1/5 of the AP (about $1000) is likely garage built by a one-man band who buys in Evaluation boards from one of the big Class D developers and puts them in an inexpensive case, together with an inexpensive power supply. If that's what you want, you are welcome.

My own Class D is one that you seem to praise, Purifi Eigentakt, but it's not built around an Eval board. It's been tuned by the builder and Purifi and is built with better parts under license. It has a first-class case, uses a good power supply, sockets, etc and has picked up several highly sought after awards from respected sources. The power amp version only of my all-in-one costs about $3700, not a lot short of the

 

If you actually understood what I have said and actually knew what you were talking about, posted on January 28, 2023 at 15:21:50
goryu
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it might be worth continuing this discussion.

I DON'T NEED to listen to this amp to conclude is has a poor cost/performance in comparison to other class d amps. It's a simple line by line comparison.

As I have said over and over and over, subjective reviews are worthless. They won't tell you if you will like the amp in your system, they are simply one person's opinion with different gear, room, etc. Who cares? So no, I have no reason to point to any subjective reviews, good, bad, or indifferent.

And no, the $1000 Purifi, Hypex, amps are not "garbage". Do a little research instead of just dismissing out of hand because you spent 3 times that amount. There are several different available on the market with happy customers a plenty. No doubt they perform every bit as good as your example. There are several reviews and build tear downs available if you take the time to actually look for them.

Plenty of others offering DIY kits with the Hypex modules that allow one to use any kind of case, wiring, etc. that they can dream up, all with instructions and videos to aid assembly, which is mostly plug and play. One can spend as much as one likes on shiny things but most will have a top class amp for a few thousand at most, less than half of the Atmasphere and it will perform measurably better in all, or nearly all, areas.

Talk about absurd, geez...

 

What gear do you have in your system? Do tell.. nt., posted on January 28, 2023 at 16:04:37
Cougar
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nt.

 

Why do you care?, posted on January 28, 2023 at 16:21:41
goryu
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Your interest is flattering though misplaced.


By the way, Magnepan speakers present an almost purely resistive load which is easy to drive. They do have low sensitivity and need a lot of watts though. Reactive load? Not.

 

For someone who...., posted on January 28, 2023 at 16:48:48
Cougar
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talks so much crap about the Atmasphere Class D amp and the lack of measurements, I would like to see what "Superior" gear you are running.

 

RE: If you actually understood what I have said and actually knew what you were talking about, posted on January 28, 2023 at 16:52:23
pictureguy
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I would add just ONE point about reviews and reviewers.

If you find a reviewer with whom you generally Agree or Disagree, you may have a useful datapoint from that reviewer going forward.

I depends in all on your value and taste alignment with said reviewer.

Without naming a name, I can think of one reviewer with whom I am almost 100% Disagree and this gives me some thoughts if I read one of this persons reviews.........Not perfect, but good data...
Too much is never enough

 

Meaningless, pointless, and off topic. Sorry. nt, posted on January 28, 2023 at 18:41:10
goryu
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nt

 

"by nearly all measures of performance" you don't actually know that... what you seem to know is..., posted on January 29, 2023 at 13:49:17
musetap
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by nearly all measures of... specifications.

PERFORMANCE in anything built to perform is only truly known by the actual
performance of such IN addition to the mathematical measurement (specifications) of such.

You have issues with the cost of the Atmasphere amp based on numbers you've read
and the cost of the amp. NOT the performance of the amp, which you haven't heard
in a hobby that requires...hearing. AND ... listening.

Perhaps if you phrased your argument (which I understand) in a less abrasive
and argumentative manner, you wouldn't have verbally painted yourself into a
corner to where you seem to need to try to express yourself out of so...tediously.

Don't use cost/performance.

Try using cost/specifications.

Probably work better for your POV in a VERY subjective hobby.






"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

It's NOT off topic on an audio board... and the more you post here..., posted on January 29, 2023 at 13:54:48
musetap
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the more you seem like a top tier troll.

It's starting to overpower some of the intelligence previously trying to get through.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Well, The highly praised Hypex....., posted on January 29, 2023 at 15:00:46
Cougar
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New Nilai Modules are having issues with broken pins on caps and heat.

The cap issue with broken pins is suppose to be due to shipping. What?

They have some pics of the modules hitting 162F and 182F with Thermal Camera. I know some amps get warm or hot depending on what class they are running in but for Class D amps to be more efficient and less heat, this would seem to be not good over time if running 4 ohm speakers or dipping lower than that. My Crowns XLS 1502 and 2502 never get hot and barely warm. The fan never comes on except for really hard high level listening sessions on my 4 ohm speakers and it barely turning.

I was looking into these modules when I first saw them becoming available, but I will steer away from these for now.

These are going up in price too! Hopefully they get this Ironed out! Hey but they measure great!

here's the link below.

 

One person had an issue from shipping. Wow....guess you better stay away..., posted on January 29, 2023 at 15:44:04
goryu
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But hey, here's a subjective review comparing several of the latest class d amps:

https://alpha-audio.net/

Including the new nilai500...

Summary: they loved it. For what that is worth.

 

There were two., posted on January 29, 2023 at 15:49:42
Cougar
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"I would like to comment on the broken cap issues reported here. We can confirm we have two similar cases from two different customers both in the US. both deliveries are from the same shipment from us (Netherlands) to our US reseller. Although we indeed don't see damages to the package we do believe this carton faced high levels of G forces. So, probably dropped from some height. Also the outer carton faced water damage. so all in all this shipment was not trieded nicely unfortunately. We will investigate how to prevent this from happening again in the future."

Yes, I will stay away!

 

Woa, the sky is falling!, posted on January 29, 2023 at 15:57:11
goryu
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lol....I understand there is a extremely tight supply as they are selling out as soon as available. You probably couldn't get one even if you wanted to....Good to see you are visiting ASR, if you aren't careful you might learn something...

 

A rose by any other name..., posted on January 29, 2023 at 15:58:56
goryu
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play semantics if you wish. I think you are smart enough to understand the point.

 

It's off topic for this thread. Save the snarky insults. nt, posted on January 29, 2023 at 16:00:12
goryu
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nt

 

Yeah I did...., posted on January 29, 2023 at 16:26:10
Cougar
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learn something there, you guys don't listen to the gear reviewed as you have confirmed in your post here.

 

Pity that's all you were able to take away...nt, posted on January 29, 2023 at 16:53:46
goryu
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nt

 

RE: It's off topic for this thread. Save the snarky insults. nt, posted on January 29, 2023 at 20:08:26
The Dill
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Pot kettle black ...

 

RE: Omni Speakers, posted on January 30, 2023 at 14:35:28
cawson@onetel.com
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Exactly my experience based on two showroom demos. Omnis have good pints and would be great in my strange shaped room, but their imaging was what let them down - particularly as I'm spoilt by horns.

 

RE: Most authoritative sources..., posted on January 31, 2023 at 01:14:43
morricab
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One would expect that is low enough but these are also static measurements, dynamic measurements and interaction with the load (feedback amps have a lot of interaction with back EMF from the speakers...the more back EMF from the speaker, the more it can impact the amps distortion). Matti Otala demonstrated this clearly in the 1980s. It is also one of the reasons some high feedback amps can oscillate with electrostatic speakers as those speakers have nearly 100% back EMF (they are basically a big capacitor) where the signal injected back into the amp through the feedback loop will be reamplified and distort the sound (or make the amp unstable).

Have you taken two or three amps (are there that many), which measure that low and compared them and found them all to sound the same? EVERY amp demo I have ever done in the last 35 years, blind or sighted (yes, blind), yielded pretty clear differences that could then lead to preference. Some were not low distortion, some were very low distortion.

Same for preamps, DACs and even cables (where one would expect distortions down on the levels you say are inaudible)...they all make clear differences...preference is in the ear of the listener but often there is a clear consensus among listeners present.

Just this past weekend we demoed 4 DACs, two are tube DACs (Monarchy Audio M24 and Ayon Skylla 2...both R2R with Burr Brown 20 and 24 bit chips, respectively), one is a NOS R2R DAC with no output stage (Metrum Octave 2, which uses unknown 24 bit instrumentation DACs...4 per channel) and the APL Hifi DSD-AR, which converts PCM to DSD 256 and puts that through a discrete, Class A transistor output stage that is further transformer coupled.

None likely measure as low as a Topping DAC, for example but probbably the APL is the best measuring of the lot...and it was unanimously voted the worst sounding by the listening panel. The top spot went to the Ayon then the Monarchy. The very fairly priced Metrum accounted itself well; however, it would clearly benefit from being left on for 24 hours before using. My friend has the amazing measuring Topping (forget the model) but it sounded flat and boring with all recordings compared to the Ayon or Metrum. I guess you will probably now tell me that the recordings are just that way and the other DACs "enhanced" the sound?

 

RE: Most authoritative sources..., posted on January 31, 2023 at 01:19:39
morricab
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I forgot to ask, which "Authoritative sources"?

Links would be helpful...or at least reference texts. Otherwise, this term is pure blah blah.

 

RE: If you actually understood what I have said and actually knew what you were talking about, posted on January 31, 2023 at 01:41:24
morricab
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YES YOU DO NEED TO LISTEN to decide price/performance. The ear is the ultimate arbiter of sound quality unless you listen by looking at an oscilloscope?? Who knows...maybe you do.

Subjective reviews are not worthless...but you need to understand the language used and read between the lines. Audio gear is for HUMAN listening. It can measure amazing and sound like excrement...there are many examples in the past, present and likely future.

Happy customers? There are happy customers for just about everything. Plenty of people find ear buds perfectly acceptable sound reproducers...they are happy...much more so than the few hundreds (or even thousands) of purifi owners. There are millions of happy iphone/youtube/ear bud listeners...does that mean that is the standard of audio quality?

I have heard dozens of Class D amps and not one of them is satisfying. FWIW, I doubt the Atamasphere would change my opinion; however, it might have a chance. I am sure it measures well compared to the typical OTL or SET...both of which I would probably find sound more natural.

 

Yes, no, maybe, sorry to hear that...nt, posted on January 31, 2023 at 04:11:44
goryu
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nt

 

You've confirmed you have preferences. Congrats....nt, posted on January 31, 2023 at 04:18:03
goryu
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nt

 

try google. plenty of sources with a rather narrow consensus. nt, posted on January 31, 2023 at 04:19:59
goryu
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nt

 

Touted class D amps are *deficient* ..., posted on January 31, 2023 at 04:38:39
Feanor
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... in providing the relatively high levels of 2nd or 3rd order distortion that some people prefer, (nothing wrong with that preference needless to say).

(Note that the leading class D designs have no measurable higher order distortion much higher than 4h order that is above the level of noise which, itself, is typically below -140 dB.)




Dmitri Shostakovich

 

design choice..., posted on January 31, 2023 at 06:26:35
goryu
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Some amp designers consciously tailor their amps to produce certain distortion profiles as indeed certain distortion types have been found to be pleasant to some. Others choose to design their amps to be as free of distortion as possible, letting the end user season as they please. It's a conscious choice in many cases. I like the option to add my own salt, personally.

 

RE: try google. plenty of sources with a rather narrow consensus. nt, posted on February 1, 2023 at 07:18:17
morricab
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No, you provide evidence, your hand waving response is effectively a non-response. If you know of specific references then put the links up for all to read. It's not that hard to do... unless you don't have any. Anyone can say what you said without anything to back it up... Therefore, you can be safely ignored as a troll unless you can at least provide a modicum of data to back up your claims.

 

RE: You've confirmed you have preferences. Congrats....nt, posted on February 1, 2023 at 07:20:22
morricab
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I have confirmed I hear differences that have lead to preferences...not the same thing... congrats in failing reading comprehension 101...

 

take your pick...., posted on February 1, 2023 at 15:00:31
goryu
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help yourself...

 

RE: You've confirmed you have preferences. Congrats....nt, posted on February 1, 2023 at 15:02:29
goryu
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You haven't confirmed you hear differences. You've confirmed you think you hear differences. Whether differences actually exist in reality, you have done nothing to establish. Biases, etc. can often make one believe they are hearing something that doesn't exist. I note you never took up James Randi and his $1,000,000 speaker cable challenge....too bad...Try again.

 

Pity you haven't...., posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:06:27
Cougar
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really helped anyone with over 200 posts.

 

And you have accomplished what exactly? nt, posted on February 1, 2023 at 19:26:09
goryu
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nt

 

RE: And you have accomplished what exactly? nt, posted on February 1, 2023 at 23:37:55
ejk
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He proved that you are the only one that disagrees.

 

RE: You've confirmed you have preferences. Congrats....nt, posted on February 2, 2023 at 00:47:33
morricab
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As I have said, we have run blind, level matched tests with significant discrimination between test items. Randi is not an honest challenge, it would be heavily weighted in his favor as he has no real interest in losing money he likely doesn't have and a reputation as a skeptic.

 

RE: take your pick...., posted on February 2, 2023 at 04:53:38
morricab
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LOL, I thought you had something serious...

 

You know what they say about stupid....nt, posted on February 2, 2023 at 05:28:38
goryu
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nt

 

I thought you cared enough to actually take the time to notice , posted on February 2, 2023 at 05:35:03
goryu
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nearly every study cited in nearly every link agrees on the range of audibility. Feel free to prove otherwise.

No doubt your dac "testing" was a rigorous double blind, level matched study with a statistically significant number of data points. Not. Seems you have different standards when it's you and your buddies sitting around on a couch.

Maybe these two will help:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/

 

RE: You know what they say about stupid....nt, posted on February 2, 2023 at 05:36:20
ejk
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Yes, I do. Every time I see you post. Have you measured stupid yet. Because if we go by you, we will have to see measurements. Instead, I will use my eyes and ears. (JO)

 

Your sample size is insignificant. You haven't proved anything., posted on February 2, 2023 at 05:39:03
goryu
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Of course Randi's challenge was heavily weighted- it's hard to lose when the facts and science are on your side. The risk was all borne by Randi and no one ever took him up on it.

 

Is there any difference between "thinking we hear differences" and..., posted on February 2, 2023 at 07:30:18
MWE
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"hearing differences"? Just asking out of curiosity in the context of this discussion.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Thanks for proving my point. nt, posted on February 2, 2023 at 08:11:26
goryu
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nt

 

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