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Atma-Sphere Class D

165.23.212.16
Posted on December 20, 2022 at 11:39:39
Chuck
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Joined: August 22, 2000
 Has anybody here heard these amps? They are intriguing. Also expensive. But really intriguing. Comments from users on other discussion boards are quite positive, comparing them to really excellent tube amps. One user, though, said the midrange came close to matching a very good 300B SET amp but didn't quite meet that high standard. Still, very intriguing. Curious to hear the views of anybody who has heard them.

 

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What's so intriguing?, posted on December 20, 2022 at 13:39:17
Mike K
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Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
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 Granted, they may sound great - haven't heard them - but they're quite
expensive for what you get. Check out the class D offerings from PS Audio - you get a lot more for your money.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: What's so intriguing?, posted on December 20, 2022 at 16:33:49
Chuck
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Joined: August 22, 2000
 Made by one of the leading designers of tube amps, Ralph Karsten. His OTL tube amps are stunning and have won numerous awards. Without knowing more, I'd say a Class D amp by him is intriguing. But we know a bit more: the early comments on these amps on other discussion boards are uniformly positive, albeit with fair complaints about price. So, count me intrigued.

 

What's different is, posted on December 21, 2022 at 07:35:58
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 his design was built from scratch as opposed to using one of the OEM modules like ICE, Hypex or Purify. He didn't just put someone else's circuit in a box with his name.

And based upon his long term understanding of what makes tube amplifiers compelling for music reproduction.

 

RE: What's different is, posted on December 21, 2022 at 13:31:35
tincup
Audiophile

Posts: 234
Joined: August 20, 2016
 Look over here

 

Ralph has posted here a good bit about the design as well, posted on December 21, 2022 at 13:53:07
E-Stat
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 Now, he just needs to provide a 500 watt version. ;)

 

RE: Ralph has posted here a good bit about the design as well, posted on December 22, 2022 at 03:39:42
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
 > Now, he just needs to provide a 500 watt version. ;)

No - his customer base (valve amps users) will most likely have relatively sensitive speakers.

I'd much prefer to see a similarly powerful stereo integrated amp. I understand that's exactly what his next amp will be.

 

Evidently..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 05:38:44
E-Stat
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Posts: 37585
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 No - his customer base (valve amps users) will most likely have relatively sensitive speakers.

You're not familiar with his product line - nor that of many other tube amplifier manufacturers. Perhaps you might want to visit the website
sometime!


 

Holy moley. I could use a pair of those..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 05:41:52
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 ...to heat my basement mancave, if nothing else.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Those..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 06:02:36
E-Stat
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REF750s or Siegfrieds would do quite nicely. ;)




 

Cast iron skillet..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 07:48:08
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 ...little shakin,' little bakin,'



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

RE: Cast iron skillet..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 08:05:28
tincup
Audiophile

Posts: 234
Joined: August 20, 2016
 A lot people raving about these Atma-sphere amps here

 

The Class D has enough power for Maggies., posted on December 22, 2022 at 09:32:45
ghost of olddude55
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Posts: 32540
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 Just enough.
Out of my price range though. A pair is about what I paid for my car.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Some Class D have enough power for Maggies., posted on December 22, 2022 at 10:09:58
AbeCollins
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M700 Class D monoblocks from PS Audio sound excellent and will drive Maggies. You can find them lightly used for around $2000/pr or so. Or $3298 new minus $990 credit for a trade-in.


PS Audio M700 monoblocks. 350wpc 8-Ohms / 700wpc 4-Ohms




 

Better value out there for a lot less money, posted on December 22, 2022 at 10:32:48
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 While Ralph should be commended for designing his own class d amp, sadly he refuses to publish measurements. For about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, there are state of the art class d amps available with published measurements that Ralph has already admitted he can't compete with. New amps from Hypex, Purifi, Orchard, and others with more power, less distortion, etc. at much less cost. Of course Ralph has a dealer network and a billet chassis which he has said contributes to the higher price. No doubt his amp is nice, but it's no value leader.

 

I've had my eye on those for some time., posted on December 22, 2022 at 10:53:44
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 There's a used gear outfit in Colorado that usually has them at the right price.
I'm happy with the sound of my old Hafler, but at 175 per channel it can sometimes get a bit strained if I really crank it.
I'm sure I can find a home for it if necessary.
As always, there's WAF to consider. Yeez.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Why the obsession ..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 12:25:51
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Why the obsession with measurements? It really doesn't matter - what does matter is how they sound. How much excitement and feeling of delight when listening to equipment is really all that matters.

Few valve amps measure particularly well, but they are often considered the most musical.

 

RE: The Class D has enough power for Maggies., posted on December 22, 2022 at 12:30:34
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
 > Out of my price range though. A pair is about what I paid for my car.

Really? I was under the impression they were about £5500

 

And why the obsession with Ralph Karston?, posted on December 22, 2022 at 12:31:03
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 And almost pathological in nature.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: And why the obsession with Ralph Karston?, posted on December 22, 2022 at 12:37:49
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I don't understand! What is your point?

I've not heard his amps - neither his absurdly gas-guzzling valve amps, nor his Class D offering, but surely he is to be applauded for introducing a new and far more efficient amplifier. He has admitted that the tube amplifier is living on borrowed time and, as a company renowned for tube amps, it's a bold move and likely to save his company from going the way other tube amp builders are likely to go, particularly now Class D has come of age to the extent it truly rivals or betters all other types.

 

RE: I've had my eye on those for some time., posted on December 22, 2022 at 13:20:41
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
You're probably thinking of TMR Audio in Erie CO directly East of Boulder. They often advertise on Audiogon. I've seen M700 monoblocks on US Audio Mart in recent days.



 

RE: Some Class D have enough power for Maggies., posted on December 22, 2022 at 13:51:53
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
 Abe, did I miss a post of yours about your new amp? The ABH2 is new, right?

Cheers,

Scott

 

Which is about how much I paid for my car., posted on December 22, 2022 at 13:56:35
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 USD $5500.00.





The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Yep. TMR. nt, posted on December 22, 2022 at 13:57:05
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 nt



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

I was merely reinforcing your comment on gorus's seeming obsession and wondering why , posted on December 22, 2022 at 14:07:24
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 he seemed as obsessed with Ralph Karsten for not offering more measurements (if that's even the case) as he did Atmosphere's Class 'D' offering.


That is all.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Obsessed? No..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 14:21:23
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 just pointing out it's a poor value in view of what else is available on the market especially when many other manufacturers are transparent with the performance of their products. Geez.

 

RE: Why the obsession ..., posted on December 22, 2022 at 14:29:38
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 The fact is measurements don't lie. How something sounds is an opinion and is neither debatable nor necessarily shared.

When comparing a product like an amp, which is designed to do one thing, make a small signal larger, how well it does such is a logical, reasonable, and accurate metric for judgment. It needn't be the final arbiter, but as a way to narrow the herd, measurements are a reasonable tool. When better performance is available at 1/3 the price, I don't consider this product a good value. That's my opinion, based on something tangible. You are free to feel otherwise.

 

RE: Some Class D have enough power for Maggies., posted on December 22, 2022 at 15:20:41
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 Yes, I had a Benchmark AHB2 amp on loan for a solid day from a local audio friend. I went and bought one for myself !

I like it a lot but I like the PS Audio M700 monoblocks too. I haven't decided which I prefer long term but it's more complicated than that because I have two sets of speakers. One pair is easy to drive. The other pair really come to life with more power and are better served by the M700 mono blocks.

I'll be selling some gear before too long ;-)



 

RE: And here's the Cleveland Symphony brought to you by the Number Four, posted on December 22, 2022 at 17:16:41
B. Scarpia

 

Atma-Sphere is a high end company so prices must be high, posted on December 22, 2022 at 18:42:31
13th Duke of Wymbourne
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Posts: 2794
Location: Orange Co., Ca
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 or they won't appeal to high-end buyers.

Ralph has posted on this forum about tube amps and why he thinks they sound good (relatively large amounts of 2nd & 3rd order harmonics that mask the much more objectionable higher order harmonics). Class-D is very different and kudos for going in that direction. Bruno Putzey's view on Class-D is that it is all about applying enough feedback and including the output inductor within the feedback loop - very different from no/low feedback tube amp design. I suspect Ralph will want to add a little low-order distortion, maybe he has some tricks for the modulator - if he has designed his own modulator.

Hopefully, he will not take the LKV approach of sticking a buffer with a lot of character in front of a transparent Class-D power amp or the AGD approach of implementing a semiconductor manufacturer application circuit.

 

RE: Some Class D have enough power for Maggies., posted on December 23, 2022 at 06:53:48
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
 Good stuff, enjoy, Abe. I look forward to further impressions and which amp(s) you ultimately keep.

Cheers,

Scott

 

Looking into the PS Audio M700, posted on December 23, 2022 at 08:10:41
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 Abe, I was looking into the PS Audio M700's and still may grab them after the holidays. Also looking into the new Schiit TYR.

I just wish I could audition them before I buy to see how they will match up with my newly completed Transcendent Sound Masterpiece preamp. That preamp is finally coming into its own and is the best sounding preamp I have ever had in my system. I use it with the Crown XLS 1502 and sound great but just wondering how it would really sound with the M700 in my system.

I was considering the Benchmark a while back but not enough power for my 87db. 4 ohm speakers.



 

If you do it..., posted on December 23, 2022 at 09:40:54
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 ...and decide to sell the Crown, shoot me an email.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

we didn't, posted on December 23, 2022 at 11:42:52
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Hopefully, he will not take the LKV approach of sticking a buffer with a lot of character in front of a transparent Class-D power amp or the AGD approach of implementing a semiconductor manufacturer application circuit.

The circuit is entirely of our own design and no nonsense trying to color the sound. The input buffer is similar to a balanced instrumentation circuit.

 

RE: Looking into the PS Audio M700, posted on December 23, 2022 at 11:52:44
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46280
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I'm sending you a private message via the Asylum. In the mean time....

As you may know I have a pair of 350wpc M700s AND the 100wpc Benchmark AHB2. Both are excellent but different. The obvious big difference is the power output.

The AHB2 is insufficient for my 87dB 4 Ohm Thiel CS2.4 speakers but the M700s will drive them with effortless ease and great dynamics. The AHB2 will power the Thiels but it's not quite "there". These speakers come alive with more power.

So why do I have the AHB2 amp? Because I am now running the smaller and more efficient Tannoy Definition D500 speakers. Why am I running the smaller speakers? Because the taller Thiels partially block a corner of the TV screen from my wife's viewing position in her favorite chair. She sits toward the left of the screen while I am dead centered ;-) You can check my Ayslum profile / system for detailed photos.

AHB2 and M700s in the rack.



 

Made in USA. Measurements have been published., posted on December 23, 2022 at 12:01:29
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Just not as many as you want. There is a difference between that and 'refuses to publish measurements' as you suggest :)

The reason this amp is more expensive than most you see is its built to last and here in the US rather than by underpaid people on China or the like. Its also built to be worth repair or update should it need it decades down the road. However its less expensive than the Technics entry and quite a few others. Its also less expensive than most of our tube products, and IMO its also better.

I've been asked a lot why we didn't use the Purifi module or the like; we're perfectly capable of engineering the circuit ourselves so it seemed to send the wrong message to use someone else's module. But anyone doing class D has to contend with Bruno's patents. However there is still room for improvement and I think we have done that.

There is a company secret thing that is at play here and other than saying that I really don't think its a good idea to reveal any more. But on account of that topic, we already have feedback from customers that think our amp sounds better than the Purifi so there's that.

I know, I know, subjective anecdote and all that. But I should point something out that is glaringly obvious to any musician: harmonics create the sound of all instruments and that is why you can tell the difference between a Honer clarinet and one made custom by an artisan.

If you are trying to say that the subjective experience has no meaning or validity, you have to also explain how the harmonics can't be audible and color the sound. You won't get very far with that...

My point is there is more to this than simply looking at the THD. What is being ignored is the way the ear perceives sound and how the harmonic spectra of the amplifier interacts with that.

Put another way, there is a direct link between what we can measure and what we can hear! If you don't get that you are missing a bet. I don't care on which side of that debate you drive in your stakes; If you don't understand how the distortion of any amplifier influences the sound then you only have half the picture.

 

Always preferred their sound at 5.683..., posted on December 23, 2022 at 12:15:28
musetap
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  Since: January 28, 2004
 but that's just me.

Szell was a numbers guy!


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

I replied to the PM you sent. , posted on December 23, 2022 at 12:25:56
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
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Joined: June 25, 2001
 Thank You!

 

RE: we didn't, posted on December 23, 2022 at 12:37:44
AbeCollins
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 None of my business asking about design details but are you using an op-amp instrumentation amplifier on the input? I'm thinking of a 1980's book I have from Analog Devices on Transducer Interfacing.

From my Engineering Lab R&D Technician days



 

Yes, a bit updated though. , posted on December 23, 2022 at 12:53:35
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Much better opamps, that sort of thing.

 

Difference between a few specs and real measurements..., posted on December 23, 2022 at 13:01:03
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 You have published a few specs, bare bones at best. Your competitors are publishing measurements, pages of them. It isn't even close.

No doubt the distortion produced by an amplifier can affect the sound. That's why a full suite of measurements that show an amplifier's performance at different loads, across the frequency spectrum, at different power outputs, along with other measurements help to judge the types and levels of distortion to expect.

Clearly it is indeed harmonics that give color to instruments. I would prefer to hear the harmonics in the recording, rather than have an amp that adds its own color to the audio experience.

Personally, I prefer amp makes like Hypex, Purifi, Orchard and the like who produce amps with distortion at the threshold or below that of human hearing. They aren't trying to tune their amp's distortion profile to produce 2nd, 3rd harmonics to cover larger orders. They are out to produce a wire with gain and have come very close.

The great reluctance to be open and provide such information makes it appear like you have something to hide. High end Audio has earned its reputation for questionable claims and marketing speak, along with over priced, under performing products. Companies who go out of their way to back up their claims with data are to be commended and patronized. Pardon me if I am a trust but verify kind of guy but 30+ years as an audio consumer has made me that way.

 

Now that we got that cleared up, posted on December 23, 2022 at 13:32:55
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Personally, I prefer amp makes like Hypex, Purifi, Orchard and the like who produce amps with distortion at the threshold or below that of human hearing.

I love the idea that distortion can be 'below the threshold of human hearing' :)

If you understand human hearing, you also know it doesn't work that way. If you ever wondered why there is such a divide between the objective camp vs the subjective camp, (other than that pesky human nature) this is an enormous reason why. The failure of both camps to realize Daniel Recklinghausen was right means both are leaving money on the table.

They are out to produce a wire with gain and have come very close.
:) Can we please stop using that tired and inaccurate trope? Just so we're clear, a 'wire with gain' would not drive 99% of speakers made properly, even it somehow was good for 5000 Watts. The amp needs to be a voltage source; a 'wire with gain' would not double power as load impedance is halved.

Companies who go out of their way to back up their claims with data are to be commended and patronized. Pardon me if I am a trust but verify kind of guy but 30+ years as an audio consumer has made me that way.

No worries!

I get that as a consumer in high end, you've likely run into a few duds. I know I have. So to get around that problem we simply allow the customer to buy the amp and they have two weeks to play it and see that it does the job in their system. So WRT the claims we've made you get to find out in your own system.

So I get the trust thing- I have the same problem. But my perspective as a manufacturer is likely different from yours.

I've noticed over the last 5 decades that spec sheets are more often marketing tools than they are anything that lets you know how a product will work in your own home. The simple fact is the spec sheet should tell you exactly how that product will sound. These days no-one thinks about that or even allows that its possible- audiophiles have been lied to for so long (by the manufacturer, reviewer and dealer), that even jaundiced individuals have to take the unit home to see if it works for them. I think this is simply because at best, the specs don't show you what you really need to know, and even if they did, there is the problem of knowing what you are looking at. Its a lot easier to simply get the product and see how it works.

When you have the unit in your home you can open it up and see what you paid for. We've built our gear to be reviewed from the inside out for that very reason- rather than pricing to what the market will bear, we price to a formula. This has meant that our amps over the last 45 years have been less expensive than their competition. The tricky bit we're up against now is how much product is coming into the US that's made by slave labor and the like. We could knock 2/3rds the price out of our product by making it in China. I seriously doubt that it would perform as well or last as long though. Sorry if I seem a bit stubborn on this issue but I like to buy something knowing that its built to last. I hate buying junk.






 

While we are at it...., posted on December 23, 2022 at 14:53:57
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 It's widely accepted that there are limits to human hearing. I know there are to mine. And I know that there must be a level at which distortion products are inaudible. Most claim around 110-120dB down. There are amps produced these days with distortion at or below that limit. Most designers seem to strive to have an accurate an output as possible.

The subjective-objective debate is not simple. I have found most on the subjective side simply don't understand the science behind measurements and rather than educate themselves to their utility, simply choose to cover their ignorance with bluster. Many also have no understanding of bias and how it effects what we think we hear. The magical cult of green pens, cd's in the freezer, and the $100,000 power cord all prove that there is no accounting for gullibility, as PT Barnum noted.

If measurements had no real utility, they wouldn't be an intrinsic tool of all competent designers. Surely if they are important to a designer, they likewise can have utility to a consumer.

The higher the price tag, the more skepticism is warranted. Clearly the ultimate goal for most is to find something that they enjoy listening to. There is no reason to deny people the pleasure of excellent engineering and design, nor to deny people the intellectual exercise of screening products based on how well they objectively perform, or to deny due diligence in the swamp that is high end audio.

The wire with gain analogy may not be accurate in practice but the idea is reasonable in theory: an amp is suppose to amplify- make the small signal larger. Ideally, with as little added or subtracted from the small signal as possible. A perfect amp wouldn't add or subtract anything. There are plenty of amps made today that add very very little (in fact, at the limits of most well respected instrumentation, and yes, audibility), and are very reasonably priced. How do we know this? Because the manufacturers publish their measurements.

Of course there are those who look at an amp differently- they believe adding certain types of distortion is appealing. They have their fans. I and many others aren't among them. This isn't an amp in the pure sense, it's perhaps more properly characterized as an effects box.

A full suite of measurements can tell one a great deal about a product, what it can't tell with absolute certainty is how any one individual will perceive the product in their system in their room. For that, in home audition is the ultimate arbiter. What measurements can do is weed out products that perform poorly at their price point, that wouldn't be a good match with one's speaker load or other equipment, or are poorly designed and/or don't live up to their marketing copy. Finally, a full set of measurements tell me something else about a company- it tells me they are confident in their product, that they have nothing to hide, and that they are responsive to the demands of the marketplace.

I look at a full suite of measurements like an annual report. I wouldn't invest in a company without seeing a full financial disclosure, no matter how good their story sounds, no matter what their past performance, no matter what other people say. Without the disclosure, it doesn't get in the house. Measurements aren't the end of the decision process, they are the beginning.

 

RE: While we are at it...., posted on December 23, 2022 at 18:15:39
Davey
 Ralph is taking some incoming on other forums as well. He's put himself in an interesting position with this product, but he's defending the technology and his implementation rather well.

Obviously there is the value proposition as well. That's probably a different discussion than just the technical aspects.

Regardless, the price of the new mono-blocks put them beyond reach for most audiophiles. Yet another exclusive product that many would have a hard time justifying.
This is the essential problem with the "high-end" audio industry, at this point.

Dave.

 

"..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 23, 2022 at 22:22:19
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46280
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Have you not seen insanely stupid priced audio gear? While not cheap a nice pair of 'designed from the ground up' Class D monoblocks for $5400/pr is in the realm of sanity. You might even get a slight discount through the dealer network.

What I find to be truly insane are some off-the-shelf Class D modules stuffed into pretty cases that cost around 2x (or more) the Atma-Sphere monoblocks.

IMHO basic specs matter but annual report like detail doesn't mean much. I've owned gear with phenomenal specs that sound like crap and others that are only so-so that sound wonderful. It comes down to personal taste in ones own system.




 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 07:09:23
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 Abe, I had the same experience as you seeing great specs on some gear and it didn't sound very good. I also heard gear that on paper didn't look very good on its specs but sound amazing!

I wonder what the specs were on the on some Class D amps like Hypex and Ice from the early 2000's? Cause from what I remember, most didn't like how they those Class D amps sound back then. So it's not all about the specs how that one person is harping about.

 

Just curious what gear....., posted on December 24, 2022 at 07:56:32
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
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 You are running in your system. I didn't see any listed.

 

Where did I say it is "all about specs"?, posted on December 24, 2022 at 07:57:46
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 Try rereading my post. I believe I said measurements are the beginning in product evaluation. I made it quite clear that ultimately it is how one appraises the sound of an amp in their system in their room that is the final arbiter.

Anyone charging $4500 in today's market for a product, with the plethora of high quality, excellent sounding, much higher power, superbly measuring products available at less than half or even a third the price, in my opinion, needs to provide more than a few specs and a "trust me". I have no doubt that the manufacturer wouldn't release a dud based on his experience and reputation in the industry, which I must admit, makes me even more disappointed in the secrecy, but is this product 2 or 3 times "better" than the state of the art? I sincerely doubt it as he has already said the cost is largely attributable to the case, higher cost of labor, dealer network, etc. He also infers that it is of much higher build quality, though that hasn't seemed an issue with other top tier class d amps priced at a fraction of the cost. I have to wonder as well how many people realistically think they need to get 20 years out of an amp, especially with the advancement cycle in technology and the frequency most replace other electronics. I could buy 3 Hypex based products and realistically expect to get 40-50 years out them, used sequentially, for less money.

The old "measures good, sounds bad", "measures bad sounds good" trope is a red herring. How something sounds is an opinion, not fact, and depends on personal preferences, component and room interactions, biases, etc. Measurements are objective performance metrics which are indeed useful in evaluating how well a piece of equipment does what it is designed to do and offer insights into how it will perform/interact with other components, etc. They also provide insight into how a piece of equipment performs in relation to others in the marketplace.

Of course, some people care about other things such as the appearance, brand, pride of ownership, etc. and are fine with paying more for things unrelated strictly to performance. Many have a hard time believing that an amp the size and weight of a cigar box, or less, can be the equal of a 100 lb chuck of aluminum. Many also believe the more expensive something is, the "better" it must be. After all, high end audio is built on such a foundation. For others, these are truly golden days for great performance at very reasonable prices.

 

Why do you ask?, posted on December 24, 2022 at 07:58:20
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 nt

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 08:36:13
Davey
 My point being, I suspect most audiophiles would consider $5400 for an amplifier insanely priced. I thought my point was obvious.

Sure, there is even higher-priced equipment. More data points. :)

Dave.

 

Perhaps, but without full disclosure it's a safe bet..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 08:52:04
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 Of course your comment is inherently based on the supposition that it is not a game changer in the class d realm. If the manufacturer offered a comprehensive suite of measurements showing new state the art performance which materially moved class d forward, I would think a reasonable case could be made for such a cost structure. Lacking that, you are spot on, at least for value conscious consumers.

 

We're on the same page with a lot of this, posted on December 24, 2022 at 10:53:30
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 If you allow that distortion really does have to be -110 to -120dB then you also realize that none of the amps made today achieve that.

So then the distortion spectra of the amplifier becomes important.

I suspect that this is why the current crop of amps that have the vanishingly low distortion figures still get really variable comments- some people like them and some don't. I think that is more than personal taste and I don't doubt that some of that is simply due to the transparency, which can reveal problems upstream.

The wire with gain analogy may not be accurate in practice but the idea is reasonable in theory

Yes for a preamp, not for an amp. Unless you prefer to say things that are not true and personally I don't get that vibe from you. However I get the gist.

FWIW, Atma-Sphere has been in business in one form or another for nearly 50 years and we've always stated our specs in the manner that we did for the class D. Somehow over that entire time, its only been with the class D that anyone beefed about it. Apparently they didn't take the tube amps seriously (whoever 'they' are...)?

 

I think you took something out of context, posted on December 24, 2022 at 10:57:07
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 The old "measures good, sounds bad", "measures bad sounds good" trope is a red herring.

This comes from Daniel Recklinghausen, who stated it properly:

"If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it Measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

 

RE: Perhaps, but without full disclosure it's a safe bet..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 11:02:39
Davey
 Who would be the peeps to determine if it was a "game-changer", or not? Audiophiles? :)

Dave.

 

An example...., posted on December 24, 2022 at 11:54:44
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021



this looks pretty close to me....feel free to share yours...I suppose the reason people are now looking for more info is because many class d amp manufacturers are publishing such information. People peed all over class d amps for so long I suspect that designers got sick of it and began publishing their performance to bring a bit of reality into the debate.


 

Perhaps if these judgments are from a sufficiently large sample size...nt, posted on December 24, 2022 at 11:58:23
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 nt

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 12:08:20
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 So, what in your mind is a "sane price" for an amp? I think most "audiophiles" would think that $5400 for a pair of monoblocks is a pretty good deal, especially a ground up design from Ralph's USA made, dealer supported outfit. I went a different direction with my recent integrated amp purchase, but it's also a ground up designed, USA made (direct sale though) amp and I paid a bit more for one box. If I decide to go back to separates I'll buy the monos from the same company and it will be more that twice as much as these under discussion. Definitely expensive, but not outrageous for the design, quality of build, and customer service I received. I also have a 20 year old amp (hand built SET) from a different mfgr that I bought used, but retail on it new was $3500 20 years ago, which would be over $6,000 today. Quality costs money. If you're happy with something less expensive good for you, I have an NAD amp that plays music, but my LTA is worlds better and worth every penny I paid.

 

You seem to be saying that you get what you pay for..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 12:19:56
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 " Quality costs money. If you're happy with something less expensive good for you, I have an NAD amp that plays music, but my LTA is worlds better and worth every penny I paid."

Implying that the NAD, costing less, is inferior in quality in addition to some other unmentioned/implied quantity. Perhaps it is, but this is far from an absolute. You don't always get better quality, better performance, etc. in audio just because something costs more. These days there are many amps and dacs on the market that outperform products costing 2,3,4 times and more, as much. And you will find plenty of people who agree. Quality and performance no longer need cost $10's of thousands of dollars.

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 13:29:29
Davey
 If you polled a bunch of typical audio enthusiasts and asked them if $5400 was a whole lotta money for a two-channel amplifier, what do you think they would say? I suspect most of them would say "yes." :)

You can rationalize all you want, but it doesn't change the basic value judgement here.

Dave.

 

RE: You seem to be saying that you get what you pay for..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 14:04:42
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Uh, yeah, the NAD is inferior in build quality and musical quality. It's listenable for what it is but isn't close to my other amps in terms of resolution, instrument separation, soundstage, tone, dynamics...everything I listen for in the music I listen to.

So, there's so much out there that is just as good and much cheaper? What is it? What is your example of a quality built and great sounding amplifier? I haven't seen mention of one in glancing through your posts, just arguments over "measurements" and insults to people like Ralph and Ric Schultz. What have you heard out there in the world that you like? I saw someone upthread ask what your system is and your response of "why do you ask" is not satisfactory to those of us wanting to know what you consider to be worthwhile. Trollin' is easy, but it gets us nowhere does it? Well, maybe it gets some around here some sort of attention getting thrill.

Oh, and while we're at it, although I'm set with my amp, DAC and TT system, I'm soon in the market for speakers. I've budgeted up to $20,000. What great sounding speakers have you heard that will cost much less? I'm making a list! Just because I can spend it doesn't mean I have to.

Here's my current system since I never bothered to put it in the Inmate Systems page:

Linear Tube Audio ZOTL Ultralinear+ integrated amp
Marantz SA-KI Ruby SACD/DAC
Avalon Acoustics Symbol speakers
SME 20/2A TT SME IV.VI arm Koetsu Black cartridge

Also own:

Wavelength Audio 300B integrated amp
Sonic Frontiers Power 1 amp
Supratek Audio Syrah preamp
JM Reynaud Twin Mk II speakers
Kef Q1 speakers
NAD C340 integrated amp
Yamaha S1800 SACD/DVD player

Oh, and FYI, I have had experience listening to products that had huge price discrepancies that didn't offer better sound. Best examples were a Rega Planet CD player vs. a 5X more expensive BAT, and my little Avalon Symbols vs. the 3X pricier Avalon Eclipse's. But then again when I bought my TT I listened to the SME 10 model first and then the 20 (that I bought) that was better in EVERY way, it wasn't close (and both were MUCH better than my Rega Planar 3). Can't remember the price discrepancy, something like $7,000 vs. $11,000 at the time. I bought it the week before the price almost literally doubled. Had I waited I probably wouldn't have bought it at twice the price though.

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 15:02:03
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 I've been on this forum since the beginning and I think I have a good idea of what people here use for amplification, those that I pay attention to at least. I think it's a good representation of audiophiles. Plenty here use amps that cost WAY more than $5400. Granted plenty here spent less by buying used, and plenty of DIY, but brands like Ayre, ARC, CJ, PASS, BAT, Levinson, McIntosh, VTL, Atma-Sphere, Audio Note (want to talk insane?), Classe, Simaudio, Bryston are well represented here. I guess we just have a different interpretation of what "insanely priced is". My guess, based on a scan of your posts, is that you're coming at it from the DIY perspective and that's a whole nother' kettle and attitude towards manufacturers and product pricing. DIY'ers don't have HR costs, facility costs, or any other of the costs a real manufacturer has to contend with. Those of us that just want to listen are willing to pay those costs to someone else who makes our "rationalizations" possible.

If you're not a DIY'er, and are a mfgr. what is the great amp that you've got that is such a bargain? Just like the other guy here, you don't say what your system is.

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 16:10:36
Davey
 Obviously I'm not talking about AA and the nutmegs here, but rather the larger industry and customer pool.

I don't think you have a clue what perspective I'm coming at this from.

Anyways, I'm not sure why you even chimed in here. I made a reply to Abe and now all of sudden you're offering your two cents?
I don't really care.

Have a good holiday and rest of the year.

Dave.

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 16:39:41
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 "I don't think you have a clue what perspective I'm coming at this from. But thank you for your two cents."

And no sharing of any examples of where your value judgment, or any other perspective is coming from. Instead, vague insults seem to be your specialty.

Noted for the future.

 

Try rereading my posts above, posted on December 24, 2022 at 16:51:25
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 as I have made mention of several amp manufacturers offering state of the art performance at 1/3 the price of these Atmas-phere amps.

Sorry to hear you are disappointed with the NAD. It must be an older unit as they use high quality Hypex tech these days. Maybe try one of those.

What I like or what I have is of no relevance. Opinions on sound quality are subjective and are not debatable. I really don't care what you have. This discussion is about the Atmas-phere class d amp.

 

RE: Try rereading my posts above, posted on December 24, 2022 at 18:22:22
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 "What I like or what I have is of no relevance. Opinions on sound quality are subjective and are not debatable."

It boggles my mind why some of you are so unwilling to share. Subjective or not, what's wrong with letting us know where you've committed your $$$, or your DIY time and resources? Why are you here?

You're right, this is a discussion about Atma-Sphere's class D amps. I didn't see where anyone was claiming they were a "value leader" and "value" is itself inherently subjective isn't it? I value a reputable mfgr with years of experience designing and building products made in the USA, standing by them with a warranty and repair facility long after that. I value a product that produces the palpable 3D sound of instruments that sound like instruments and voices that sound like human voices. I read Ralph's reply to you defending his amplifier on grounds that he's made something he feels is better than those Purifi modules you tout. Maybe that's an added value that makes them worth his price. Now you may value something else (and that's perfectly fine!) and since you never mention music in your posts, granted I haven't read them all, but I sure see lots about "sound", "measurements", "distortion" and nothing about music so it's difficult to glean anything else about what it is that you do value aside from those descriptors.

Carry on with your "objectivism" if that's what floats your boat. Science is grand (I was once a scientist!), but music is art and that's why I'm here, after the most satisfying (affordable) musical experience I can get outside of Davies Symphony Hall. I appreciate those like Ralph, and David Berning (designer of my amp) who blend science and art to make that possible.

Also noted for the future.

 

RE: "..put them beyond reach for most audiophiles.", posted on December 24, 2022 at 18:42:12
Davey
 It wasn't a vague insult.

Dave.

 

Because frankly..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 18:54:11
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 "what's wrong with letting us know where you've committed your $$$, or your DIY time and resources? Why are you here?"

is not only not relevant but none of your nor anyone else's business.

 

Relevance..., posted on December 24, 2022 at 19:16:20
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Is subjective.

131 posts on an audiophile board and that's what you've got, obtuse evasiveness?

You carry on with yourself then.

Happy Holidays (should you celebrate any, that not being my business either).

 

Missed My Sarcasm Font. Carry On Davey., posted on December 24, 2022 at 19:20:57
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 With whatever it is that you get out of what you do here.

And, Happy Holidays should you celebrate any. I can't wish you anything less than I did goryu!

 

RE: Missed My Sarcasm Font. Carry On Davey., posted on December 24, 2022 at 21:11:06
Davey
 Ya know, I've been on this forum for as long as you have. Anybody who's remotely interested knows my name, who I am, and what I'm about. In fact, my email address was even public until a few years ago when fanboys of "PeterGunn" on the MUG started threatening me off line.

But here you come, anonymous, and hiding behind the moniker of a Finnish composer for 22 years and asking me what my perspective is regarding my equipment choices and values thereof. And, funnily enough, I noticed you don't post any of your system equipment in your AA profile.

So, I'm sorry, but I'll be the one determining who has the best audio equipment street cred here, and who doesn't.
I wasn't talking to you to begin with, so next time you see one of my posts, feel free to just ignore it. Problem solved.

Dave.

 

RE: measurements, posted on December 24, 2022 at 23:25:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 People insist on discussing measurements and 'Objective' V 'Subjective'

I found this article VERY interesting concerning the history of measuring sound.
Early philosophers thought it a waste of time......but than math caught up with the issue
and progress was made.

This is JUST my opinion, so I won't mind being ignored....

BUT? The measurment guys are not yet done. Between the science, the technology and the study of man, progress continues to be made.
Will a single number ever be evolved to describe a piece of gear? I doubt it. I think that everything that CAN be measured does not necessarily matter.
And everthing that MATTERS can not necessarily YET be measured.......
Too much is never enough

 

I've made my thoughts and opinions on the topic at hand perfectly clear..., posted on December 25, 2022 at 06:06:42
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 if you fail to understand my comments, perhaps the obtuseness is located in another direction.

Have a nice holiday.

 

I paid $5500 for my car., posted on December 26, 2022 at 05:38:09
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32540
Joined: July 14, 2017
 Bought it in 2015. Still have it. Good car, too.
Yeah. $5,400 for an amplifier is insanely priced. I wouldn't spend that much even if I had that much to spend.
My system's fairly humble though. Not sure I'd qualify as an audiophile.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

does the AHB2 sound better than the PS Audio on the Tannoys?, posted on December 26, 2022 at 06:09:42
Chuck
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Joined: August 22, 2000
 Abe, thanks for the comments. Are you using the Benchmark on the Tannoys because it sounds better than the PS Audio amps on these speakers? If so, in what ways is it better? Thank you.

 

wow-a hornet's nest. Thanks, everybody, but I'm still waiting for listener reports on the Atma-Sphere Class D's..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 06:19:18
Chuck
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Joined: August 22, 2000
 The discussion here has been interesting but, unless I missed it, nobody in this thread except for Ralph, the manufacturer, has yet heard the Atma-Sphere Class D's. I know there are a few reports on other forums, but, even there, the actual listener reports are relatively rare. So, still waiting....

 

So I'd like to see Ralph send a copy to ASR, posted on December 26, 2022 at 07:20:59
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9858
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 Having measured that copy, I'd like to see Amir actually listen to it. (Yes, he sometimes does listen to electronics.)


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

Do you season your food or let others do it for you?, posted on December 26, 2022 at 07:36:18
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 How something sounds is a subjective matter of personal taste. Do you let others pick out your clothes for you? Order your meal at a restaurant? Choose what music to buy? I suggest you listen for yourself if you want to know how it "sounds"...

 

Don't hold your breath..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 07:38:37
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 If he wanted consumers to know he would have just published the measurements himself.

 

RE: Basic values, posted on December 26, 2022 at 08:09:49
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 "You can rationalize all you want, but it doesn't change the basic value judgement here."

There-in lies the conundrum: Everybody thinks they're middle class. Do a web search and you'll find some interesting articles on the subject. Quite a difference between the lower class and upper class and yet they all consider themselves "middle class".

Median household income is around $70,000 (USA) and I agree with you that very few of the households on either side of that median are buying $5400 power amps. Thus, a $5400 amp being a "pretty good deal" is not relevant for most of the USA. For upper middle class and wealthy households it probably is. Nothing wrong with that, just needs to be kept in context and recognized as a value judgment of the upper class(es).

 

RE: Basic values, posted on December 26, 2022 at 09:11:48
Davey
 Yeah, I think what gets lost here for many audiophiles is how much the market has skewed through the years.
Many years ago good/excellent audio systems were reachable for the average working guy. Now, not so much. :) And this is not specific to audio....it applies to many other things as well.

Thus we get comments about a $5400 power amplifier being a relatively good deal in the market.
I can understand how the audiophile brain rationalizes something like that. But it's because the skewed market has created the audiophile brain. :)
This is one of the reasons I no longer consider myself an "audiophile." I think it's a pejorative label now.
And it's not because I don't (now) have a good chunk of disposable income.

This is a weird industry now. 'Full of all sorts of self-deception and intellectual dishonesty. Audio Asylum is a perfect example of that. :)

Dave.

 

Agreed...there is a an elitist, snob contingent that looks down its nose, posted on December 26, 2022 at 09:29:33
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 at workingman's priced products. Thank the stars for the likes of Hypex, Purifi, and others who have advanced products that perform at stellar levels for reasonable prices. The $100,000 power cord, $250,000 speaker purveyors, and most amps over a few $1000 are built to satisfy egos rather than ears. Expensive casework, exotic materials, and other flourishes meant to make inaudible statements are all meaningless for most.

 

Do you think its accurate? nt, posted on December 26, 2022 at 09:48:41
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 -

 

You lost me., posted on December 26, 2022 at 09:49:59
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 What is meant by your prior post? Are you disputing Mr. Recklinghausen?

 

I have no reason to assume it isn't. .., posted on December 26, 2022 at 09:53:17
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 I have always found Hypex to be forthcoming, honest, and knowledgeable. 3rd party measurements of their products have confirmed their data in the past.

 

He implies a correlation between subjective opinion and objective measurements, posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:06:17
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 which may, with a large enough sample size, show some correlation but on an individual level, it fails. There is no functional relationship between opinion and measurements on an individual level which is valid for all individuals. As I have said before, such correlations for large sample sizes may be helpful for manufacturers trying to reach a market segment but on a consumer level, there is no guarantee that any one, or group of listener's opinion(s) will be truth to every other listener. One must listen for one's self ultimately.

 

Good. , posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:07:19
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 If I understand correctly, doesn't Hypex sell their modules without an input buffer?

 

RE: Audiophiles on a budget., posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:15:29
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 I like the term audio enthusiast myself. "Audiophile" still applies to people that really care about quality sound reproduction but as you point out, the high end has become almost absurdly expensive. Luckily you can still get great sound from affordable components. But people can go too far the other way and make fun of even reasonably affordable gear.

I just ignore both the high end and the cheapskates and have fun messing around with products from companies like Schiit Audio. :-)

 

the amp I linked the measurements to is their new nilai500, posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:22:19
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 which has an onboard buffer, like the nc400 it supersedes. It is thus my understanding that this measurement includes the buffer though I am open to correction.

In any case these measurements would seem to indicate that there are indeed amps which have distortion at or below the threshold of audibility.

 

There is a correlation if you measure the right things., posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:23:10
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 There is no functional relationship between opinion and measurements on an individual level which is valid for all individuals.

This statement is false. There are human hearing perceptual rules that are shared by everyone on the planet (unless their hearing is damaged). Without them the art and science of audio would be impossible- for example, deciBels, which exist because the ear works on a logarithmic basis. The masking principle made MP3s possible. There are a lot more of them and many have been known a long time, for example how much more sensitive the ear is to higher ordered harmonics, which has been know since at least the 1930s (and is easily proven with simple test equipment).

So before we can continue we would need to settle this matter.

 

That one doesn't seem to be on their website nt, posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:30:29
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 -

 

Just a FWIW:, posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:51:54
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 If we used a Hypex, Purifi or the like, in fact anyone's modules, the price of our amp would be even higher. Like about $1000.00.

That is because our chassis is made right here in St. Paul. Its finished here in the Twin Cities. The boards are made here. The surface mount is all done here. And so on.

We could make the amp a lot cheaper by about a factor of 1/10th the cost if we made it in China. I doubt it would hold up for the 30 year target that we have in mind though. And we'd possibly have to compete with knock off copies of our own design as a result! Good luck finding the company that made it two years from now... so service would be unlikely.

I know you're about the specs but really, if the cost is the real problem, then most of this thread is about what it really costs to make stuff in the US. Personally on this account I try to avoid buying stuff made in China although sometimes its unavoidable.

 

There is a difference between taste and perceptual rules., posted on December 26, 2022 at 10:55:44
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Taste is what you like. You might like things really sounding bright.

But all who have heard this amp do not say its bright. Whether you like that or not is up to you- that's taste. Do you see the difference?

 

Not valid on an individual basis, posted on December 26, 2022 at 11:16:06
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 claiming "measurements" and "sounds good/bad" are absolutely correlated is a non sequitur. Humans may share the same physiology (hardware) but they don't share the same interpretive mechanism (software). As a result, what is perceived as "good sound" and "bad sound" is perception based opinion, which can and does vary among a population- there is no universally shared reality.

There are plenty of people who do not like class d amps- they claim they have listened and believe class d to universally sound "bad". Likewise, there are plenty of people who say brand A class d sounds "good" and brand B sounds "bad", while others say the opposite. Opinions are all over the board.

So, when someone says "if it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad", the veracity of such a statement clearly will depend on who you ask- there is no certainty that all listeners will agree because people's tastes vary. It's only "bad" in a relative, rather than absolute sense, which is logical limit of any subjective statement.

Similarly, when someone says "if it measures bad and sounds good, you haven't measured the right thing", they are making a relative, rather than absolute statement as well. There will be people who may perceive a poorly measuring piece of equipment as sounding "bad" and people who say it sounds "good". So, have you or haven't you measured the "right" thing? The conclusion to this statement is fallacious- you can't equate the validity/completeness of an objective measurement with a subjective observation, which by its very nature is influenced by emotion, bias, experience, age, and other perceptual influences, such that it will vary across a population in such a way that predictive power on an individual level is weak.

You are giving examples of physiological phenomena - yes, low order distortion can mask higher, loudness curves, etc. What does that have to do with the judgment of audio quality and personal preferences? None of this addresses the "good" or "bad" sound judgement unequivocally for all listeners. Additionally, all of the Harmon curve data, etc. is based on statistics- averages over a population. Like I said, large group behavior. There are always outliers, people at the fringes, etc. Again, great for predicting the herd, but doesn't tell me with any certainty if I might be on the fringe, or an outlier. How do I, or anyone else for that matter, know with certainty how I will judge the sound, good or bad? Just like everyone else, I have to listen for myself. You can use rules of thumb to tune your amp to "good" sound as experimental data and measurements dictate but as we know from the marketplace, actual consumer preferences are widely varying and no one has yet cornered the market with an amp that is universally praised as "good sounding". There is never absolute agreement by everyone on any matter of taste.

We can say likewise that all humans have the same taste physiology. We make a series of stews and we measure the salinity, acidity, sweetness, spiciness, etc. chemically. We taste test with a large sample of people and develop predictive rules which tell us that a certain amount of sugar will hide the sourness of another ingredient, and that a certain amount of salt will dull the hotness of another. Further, we find the range and mix of ingredients which yield the most positive feedback. Now we have a model of human taste physiology and rules of thumb to design a stew which should, based on our testing and "rules", prove to be "good" to anyone who tastes it. Is there anyone who honestly believes, given the vagaries in human taste, that this will in reality produce a universally accepted "good" stew?

My wife and I argue about the saltiness of everything- she can't eat anything that has even been in the same room as hot sauce. The smell of her fermented soy beans makes me nauseous while her and my son love them. I want spicey, she wants salty. I want sour, she wants sweet. Further, what I say is mild, she says is on fire. What I think is salty, she's diving for the salt shaker. It isn't only the subjective judgment of good or bad that varies among people (taste), it is the relative, quantitative judgement (perception) as well.

 

Sounding "bright" is a subjective opinion..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 11:33:19
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 There is no measure of "brightness". There is no guarantee that some might listen to the amp and say it is "bright" and not like it. There is no guarantee that someone might listen and say it is "bright" and like it. There is no guarantee that someone might listen and say "it's not bright and I don't like it" or "it's not bright and I do like it".

There is no objective metric for subjective interpretations. You can only collect experimental data and fit a curve. There will always be exceptions and no absolutes.

Your quote was not addressing perceptual rules, it mentioned "good" and "bad" sound, which are matters of taste. Regardless, perceptual "rules", as I have said, are only experimentally determined "rules of thumb" with weak predictive power at the individual level. Do you see that difference?

 

Ralph, is there somewhere...., posted on December 26, 2022 at 11:37:49
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 I can get the chance to hear one of your new Atma-Sphere Class D amps here in San Diego or LA area? I would love to hear them and I'm NOT worried about specs.


Btw, I wouldn't waste my time cause that guy is from ASR and says a lot of the same things he is saying here.

 

It's on their diy site. And here's a measurement of a purifi based amp with buffer (high gain setting)..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 11:52:06
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 It's on their diy site.

https://www.diyclassd.com/

Purifi amp with buffer set to high gain. Note the distortion is -125dB down with buffer set at high:





 

I'm not about specs, I'm about value..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 12:30:12
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 Like many others in this hobby. I am about value- performance at a price point, and judging by a recent thread on another audio forum I read regularly, I am far from alone.

There is a huge market segment more interested in value than in bling. Certainly it is possible to build a case that will last that doesn't triple the cost of the amp. And does anyone these days actually buy a class d amp thinking it needs to last 30 years? I have had 4 different class d amps in the last 25 years. Each was well build and served me without any issues. Hypex's ncore amps have been on the market now for 10 years or more and I have heard of no real reliability issues or complaints. They are now on the cusp of releasing their next generation oem and diy modules, both with major performance upgrades. At this point, with their products having distortion measured below audibility, improvements to one's system are probably best found in other system components. Who needs a 30 year life span when you can buy 2 or 3 amps with a 10 year lifespan (or better) and reduce the risk of owning obsolete tech?

Your embrace of class d amp tech is to be admired based on your history and experience as a tube amp designer, as is your foresight and understanding that it is the future, to ignore this for any manufacturer is an existential risk. Though, and I don't mean this to be offensive, while you have embraced the new tech, your business attitude otherwise still seems stuck in a 1960's tube amp producer's mind set, or perhaps a luxury boutique amp producer's mind set. One of the primary selling points of class d amps, which what I see as their main point of attraction, is value. Great performance at very low cost. High efficiency, small footprint, low heat/low energy consumption at idle, etc. They are all about frugality without performance compromise. Trying to take such advantages and repackage/reposition as something far more upscale will inevitably draw negative comparisons to much higher value alternatives. I have seen this time and again when other high end brands tried to get into the class d market with $5K, $10K, $20K class d amps in high end chassis's with 60lb toroids, etc. None got very far because the complaints are always "why should I spend that kind of money for a $300 module in a $5-$10-$20K package?". Sure, a dealer network is a nice touch, as is high build quality, likewise in house design. Undoubtedly there are old school audiophiles who will make the class d leap of faith for an old school looking amp built like their favorite prestige brands from years ago. But the market has changed, just like the tech, and I would think companies that don't adapt and change their business model as well as their tech to reflect current market trends will still remain as vulnerable as the 200 lb tube amp makers to the same existential threats.

 

RE: Disagree, posted on December 26, 2022 at 14:41:30
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 I don't really think that the amplifiers being discussed on this thread are from manufacturers that are catering to vain audiophiles. Maybe, but you don't need to be too much above median household income to afford a $5400 amp if that's what your priorities are. We all have our own ideas about spending money. There's no doubt that the ultra high end has snob appeal, but I don't think a $5400 amp qualifies as something to satisfy "an elitist, snob contingent".

 

There is some truth in what you say but it is all relative..., posted on December 26, 2022 at 15:23:31
goryu
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Joined: July 17, 2021
 to many, as expressed here and other places in similar discussion, $5000 for an amp to a lot of people, who are in the hooby, is beyond comprehension. Granted, just because someone pays that much for a piece of equipment doesn't make them an elitist snob, but there are people who are elitist snobs with much less expensive amps as well...I know more than a few...

 

RE: Better value out there for a lot less money, posted on December 26, 2022 at 21:22:12
stvnharr
Audiophile

Posts: 659
Joined: November 6, 2003
 I have picked this one post of yours in which to make my one post here.
Goryu/Kuribo, you have been all over audio amp forums with your posting on the Atmasphere Class D. Your posts have all been the same, with numerous repetitions and nothing new added whatsoever. You think there is better value out there for less money. And Ralph, aka Atmasphere, does not publish enough measurement graphs for your personal satisfaction.
All well and good if that is it for you. This amplifier is clearly not for you. You should just let it be.

Your posts are rather entertaining, in a way, but you don't make any kind of persuasive argument for what you, Goryu, want. It is Ralph's and Atmasphere's say about what they charge for their product, and what they wish to publish about it.

You need to just move on!

For the record, I own a Starkrimson Ultra Dual Mono with all the bells and whistles that Leo provides. I went the DIY route and just bought the parts and put it all together myself. The total cost of this comes fairly close to what Ralph charges for his amps. Orchard Audio seems to be one of your "approved" amps because Leo publishes the measurement graphs that you like.
But, Leo is a one guy operation, with low overhead. He has a day job. He does not lead a business with employees that like to get liveable paychecks every week.

You just need to move on!!!

 

That, of course, is true, posted on December 27, 2022 at 04:46:30
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9858
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 I guess I'm challenging Ralph to do so; sorry for my presumption.

If the Atma-Sphere Class D measures differently that the most recent Purifi or Hypex, or Benchmark (for that matter), then if would behoove him to explain why the Atma-Sphere might be the better choice.

As I see it, we are still some way from having a set of measurements to truly and completely correlate with what we hear & enjoy. As it stands I suspect Ralph as a better idea of what might constitute such measurements than most designers do.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

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