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Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?

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Posted on October 20, 2022 at 12:14:06
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 I plan to build one of the three choices. I have a few DHT preamps like 112A, 10Y and 46 already so the F4 would already have a gain stage. I have a pair of the Sony SITs. Smallish room, a lot of classical, jazz and vocal music, decent bookshelf speakers. No need for deep bass on the 2nd floor. I leave the audio setup on 24/7 because listening to music in the night time helps me sleep. So the amp should not get too hot if on permanently.

SIT - best sound, I've heard one and loved it
Aleph J - unknown to me.
F4 - I have excellent DHT input stages so could sound very good. Also slightly cooler than the other two SE amps.

Comments?

 

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RE: Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 06:51:49
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 If you're going to leave these amps on 24 7 that could be a problem. Those amps run in Class A and generate heat just sitting there. Actually Class A generates a tremendous amount of heat. That's kind of their claim to fame.

Sounds great but tons of wasted energy in heat.

 

RE: Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 09:14:08
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 Hi Andy,
My take is for the F4's.
With a decent preamp, no need to use SET amps to drive the F4 in a smallish room but what is the sensitivity of your speakers? Hope it is not those "I do not hear a hum with my Maggie 1.6QR speakers" situation!
I use two sets of speakers, one pair at a time of course, with my F4's. A 94 dB Fostex base and a 99-100dB Altec base speakers. No problem driving the amp to loud levels using 76/01A/26 preamp with gains less than 12dB in my 22' x 20' room.
Sometimes, I connect my SET amps (2A3, 300B, and 45) to the F4's and its all joy but I normally use a preamp as I have multiple sources so I find it a waste of tube hours on the SET amps. I know you are not into SS preamps but the BA-3 FE Pass preamp can drive the F4 to its knees with excellent sound and you can host a dance party if you want to.
As for the Aleph J, my brother has one and it sounds great and does not require a preamp that can swing a lot of voltage to drive. I too have the completed Aleph J boards components and all and can swapped them replacing the F4 boards (DIY audio chassis with UMS drilling and with the universal PSU makes it easier to do so) but I refuse to do it as the F4 sounds so great to my ears especially after 20 minutes. I am just so lazy to get another chassis for the Aleph J boards because, in my mind,how can it sound better than the F4? The F4 sounds like whatever you put in front of it, period.
I think you will not be so lucky finding a SIT amp as there's not a lot of them around and those who have them likely will not sell it. If you want to go this route, you better build it yourself. Keep an eye for Tokin THF-51S that comes out from time to time in diyaudio marketplace ads(maybe a little too late as the Burning Amp Festival 22 from what I gathered talked about an upcoming SIT amp from Mr. Pass using it and will release the schematic very soon).
In summary, the F4 amp is very good and I am very happy that I built it first rather than the Aleph J. I can enjoy my preamps and my SET amps as it is very transparent of the source driving it. With an SET amp, say 2A3 (I use 16 ohm load), it sounds like a 2A3 x 3.14159..... :)
Good luck with your choice of amp to build.

 

RE: Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 10:58:07
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 "If you're going to leave these amps on 24 7 that could be a problem. Those amps run in Class A and generate heat just sitting there. Actually Class A generates a tremendous amount of heat. That's kind of their claim to fame."

My present 2a3 amp is class A but generates a lot less heat than the SIT amp I once had in a shootout at my place!! The SIT amp did sound excellent, but boy was it hot.

If I use a F4 I'll have to under-run it by reducing the bias or even the +-23V. In a smallish room I'm not worried. I'm wondering even about using a 15+15V transformer rather than 18+18V.

 

Why folks do want low power + high distortion amps?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 11:34:23
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9858
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 ... Especially when they are quite expensive. To wonder makes me a contrarian I suppose.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Why folks do want low power + high distortion amps?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 12:31:20
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Because they suit the MUSIC we listen to and enjoy. Every system is a compromise to achieve what we want from the music and you know that. You want linearity (aka "fidelity") with your speakers, fine (which are lovely by the way, but I don't know the specs. what high 80's eff?) so you need more power I suppose. I do notice you have a tubed pre, so even you have some variation on the theme in there. I never heard a SF pre, but have long owned a SF Power One, and it's too sterile for MY ears compared to my Wavelength 300B, or my LTA integrated.

And did you skip the OP's first line, "I plan to build"? I can't DIY, and genuinely admire people like Andy (and you, who built your speakers) that can, it's a pretty cheap way to go. I have more money than skill, so I used the resources I had available to get what I want from my system.

I love my 300B amp, which I bought used for $1500 20 years ago (MSRP was $3500). I even love it with my mid 80's dB Avalons (which are pretty linear). I hear more in the music; spacing, timing, air. Maybe that's all distortion, but there's a clarity without sterility that I don't get from the Power 1 or my SS integrated. I get the same with my LTA integrated as well, which is about 25 watts as opposed to the Wavelength's 8. And no matter what, I'm only using at most 2 watts since I listen at no more than in the high 80's dB range, yes, even for Mahler (and bits of Shosty).

 

RE: Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 12:51:46
louie3
 I have a DIY Aleph J (not by me). Its in a hugely oversize chassis so it does not run anywhere near as hot to the touch as my Pass XA 30.5, for instance. The J does a great job on my Quad ESLs (57s).

 

RE: Pass F4, Aleph J or a SIT amp?, posted on October 21, 2022 at 15:54:46
Vegman70
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: N.E. Ohio
Joined: February 20, 2016
 My office system includes a factory First Watt B1 buffer preamp driving a factory Aleph J driving Klipsch Reference Premier book shelf speakers. After my Oppo Universal crapped out I replaced it with A Sony Universal disc player and the result is heavenly to my ears.

Downsides? I had originally used Allison Trio speakers that sounded great, but were too inefficient for my taste. And then there is the heat. The J's run really hot. A nice space heater come winter though.

 

I built stuff too going 'way back, posted on October 23, 2022 at 04:53:52
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9858
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 Started with a Dynaco Stereo 80, PAT 4, and FM 5. I have more recently assembled, (more than built), a couple of class D amps. My Zaph ZRT speakers work extremely well for me, (see link below). Their sensitivity is probably in the mid-80s; conventional wisdom seems to suggest 60+ wpc, but at the levels I listen, that might actually be higher than necessary.

I do believe that the sound one prefers is a matter of personal taste & preference and that, perhaps, might depend on the sort of music one listens to.

In that regard, I prefer maximum transparency, dynamics, and bass articulation which you can't get to anywhere nearly the same extent from "low-power, high-distortion" amps.



Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: I built stuff too going 'way back, posted on October 24, 2022 at 02:05:39
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9176
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 You are assuming that those who listen to low power amps (I won't add the high distortion part because I would say high relative to what? Relative to what we hear is the only important criteria) don't like transparency, dynamics or bass articulation...

Nothing could be further from the truth. With my SOTA SET amps I hear deeper into the mix with much more space and dimensionality than with your so-called "low distortion" amps. Additionally, I find those amps, with suitable speakers, have significantly greater dynamic contrast with both micro and macro dynamics being superior.

Finally, tone overall is superior and bass texture (not "one note" that I hear from a lot of big SS and Class D amps) is worlds better.

Maybe your speakers, as good as they measure, are likely a restrictor to getting the most from a low powered amp but I don't think you have actually tried a medium powered SET or a good Class A PP triode amp on them have you?

You base your opinions on zero real experience on your speakers.

I can imagine something like VAC 30/30 or 70/70, a CAT JL2 Signature (never mind a top SET like ARies Cerat, Lamm, Amplifon, NAT, KR Audio etc.) would really open your ears to what is possible and that you haven't really even heard what your speakers can do.

 

Dynamics versus tone, posted on October 24, 2022 at 02:21:14
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 As others have pointed out, listening priorities vary from person to person. Feanor has favoured "maximum transparency, dynamics, and bass articulation".

As a professional musician I'm all about tone and timbre. I want to hear acoustic instruments sounding as close as possible to the originals which I'm familiar with, having shared a bandstand with them for 40 years. I've played in orchestras, jazz bands, theatres and all the usual stuff, so that covers the usual range of acoustic instruments plus vocals.

I get the best tone and timbre from all-DHT amps, presently 1:4 step-up into a 2a3 amp with 46 driver. I'm interested in trying the F4 or MoFo as an experiment to replace the 2a3 output. May replace it, may not.

I completely agree that these amps enable me to "hear deeper into the music" as another put it. And I don't agree that such amps are less transparent. There is no lack of transparency in all-DHT amps, quite the contrary in listening terms.

Bottom line is we listen for different things. For example, I'm uninterested in soundstage - it's just the ambient sound that counts. But an oboe or bassoon or clarinet have to sound exactly like they do live, with all the tiny nuances of tone. No compromise there.

 

You got that right - tone is more important to me as well, posted on October 24, 2022 at 06:58:28
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 My favorite amp is the diminutive EL84 Sherwood S-5000. I'm sure the scope jockeys would be running for the door if they put this amp on the bench.
But the wonderous thing about this amp is a clarinet sounds like a clarinet.

I've had a number of SS amps that have had distortion numbers like 0.00009%. But guess what? A clarinet sounds like a really good REPRODUCTION of a clarinet. It just doesn't have the timber or tone of a real instrument.

Low distortion and great tone - Now THAT'S a rare bird.

My other two favorite amps are a VTA EL34 (with mods) and a Marantz 250M SS amp. Oddly enough the Marantz 250M sounds VERY much like an KT88 tubes amp.

 

tone importance a 10 out of 10, posted on October 24, 2022 at 10:56:40
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10427
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I would think most people would want an even tonal balance and agree. Dynamics not as important. We need a polster



 

Not going to happen, posted on October 25, 2022 at 08:50:10
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37585
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 he listens with his eyes worshiping at the alter of SINAD. ;)

 

A high-distortion/low-power amp is my dream., posted on October 25, 2022 at 10:31:46
peppy m.
Audiophile

Posts: 2236
Joined: February 19, 2021
 The only thing holding me back is my budget.

 

RE: A high-distortion/low-power amp is my dream., posted on October 25, 2022 at 21:30:54
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 The question is if harmonic and IM distortion are the most significant factors in poor sound. I once had a demo of a tube amp with variable feedback(15 dB to 0 dB). As the feedback was reduced the distortion went up but to my ears the clarity, definition and dynamics, significant factors in live music, improved with each deduction.

 

RE: With a nod of the head to "Annie Hall", 'I happen to have Nelson Pass Right here', posted on October 26, 2022 at 07:19:11
B. Scarpia
 His commentary on customers and kibitzers of his Zen Amp is enlightening and amusing.

 

RE: Dynamics versus tone, posted on January 31, 2023 at 07:25:54
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1708
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 You act like it's "either or". That is, no SET, no accurate tone or timbre.

I am now using a high powered 1980s Japanese amp with Acoustic AR3A. Excellent dynamics and the tone and timbre is there. Scarily real. I suspect that the ARs and their massive alnico woofer have a lot to do with that.

The dogma among SET listeners is really quite something.

PS. I've had Horns and SET amps in the past (45, 46, 300B). Also have had musicians listen to my system (and many other equipment)...as if non musicians somehow are not capable of developing listening skills.

 

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