Amp/Preamp Asylum

Looking for a new Amp or Preamp? If you're after tubes, post over here.

Return to Amp/Preamp Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Confession is in order

70.173.239.44
Posted on January 2, 2021 at 12:27:16
LtMandella
 With 4, $50 each used but tested well and matched power tubes, my $2500 OTL amp was sounding great.

For convenience however, and since I am retired and home all day listening not just to music but also movies, online piano training, etc. I hooked up the $30 class d chip amp and disconnected the OTL.

I spent as much on replacing the counterfeit caps in that chip amp as I did on the amp itself. So total investment is <$100

And for giggles, I put a musical fidelity X-10 v3 tube buffer between the MODI 3 dac and the chip amp inputs.

I have been listening quite carefully now for about a week and don't have much motivation to power the OTL amp back up.

I have 92 db relatively revealing and efficient speakers (Ref3A DeCapo I) and both the chip amp and the OTL tube amp are rated at 25wpc.

Relatively small living room but not tiny.

My criteria for amp quality:


  • balance all the way through the tonal range

  • good strong bass, fairly "tight" but I am not extreme about it.

  • smooth and realistic vocals, breath sounds should be audible when appropriate (I should sometimes feel the need to look and see if the vocalist is in the room with me)

  • fairly sharp and "brassy" horns when music calls for it

  • violin and strings smooth, extended, and airy

  • piano deep and wide, harmonics very present

  • tingly and shimmering cymbals

  • realistic sounding applause

  • drum kit sharp and deep

  • I should always be wanting to turn up the volume

  • ZERO listener fatigue during extended listening

The $100 chip amp comes surprisingly close to the $2500 OTL tube amp.

OK, I have confessed and I feel better now :)

Am I no longer an audiophile? Should I have my audiophile creds revoked?

EDIT:
'Breeze Audio' TPA3116




 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Audiophillia has never been about the actual sound in your room, posted on January 2, 2021 at 16:37:12
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
 It is about the prestige of the brand name, the machining of the front panel, the weight of the component, the imposing visual appearance, the visceral impression on visitors viewing your system for the first time. It has never been about the sound as this is a very personal interaction with your ears and your emotions.

If that were the case, audiophiles would have systems that could replicate the physical impact of live performances. Hard to do with fru fru 6" woofers. That impact on your chest, the vibrations in your chair, not just little girls moaning into a microphone.

OTL amps are very cool looking. That is an end in itself. Like a painting. And they can help heat your room.

 

OK, which chip amp?, posted on January 2, 2021 at 16:41:17
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 You mean all I have to do is replace capacitors?

 

not my OTL, posted on January 2, 2021 at 17:43:55
LtMandella
 My OTL amp is a Transcendent Sount T8-LN.

One of the more plain looking tube amps you could ever find. Simple brushed aluminum face place and black case.

It is big though, as amps go. For the air circulation.

All my electronics now that I think about it are boring and fairly plain. Not impressive looking at all.

My 4 reel to reel decks (2 RT-707 and 2 RT-909) do look impressive, have to admit that.

 

RE: OK, which chip amp?, posted on January 2, 2021 at 17:44:56
LtMandella
 worked for me, what can I say. Breeze audio chip amp...

Good speakers might help also. Hard to beat Ref 3A DeCapos at any price in my opinion...

 

RE: Confession is in order, posted on January 3, 2021 at 09:05:58
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3364
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 I like your "criteria for amp quality" list. Pretty much matches what I look for in a system.

 

RE: Confession is in order, posted on January 3, 2021 at 10:25:45
digepix
 Reading your criteria for your amp sounds inclusive and my feeling is if a $50 chip amp gives you that then you should be done. You might not be able to brag about a cheap amp but you will be able to enjoy your music and that should be all that matters.

 

Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 11:25:49
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 just replace the generic 5532 op amps with a pair of dual Burson FETs for a more refined sound. :)

Easy peasy with socket mounting as with my Music Hall DAC. :)




 

RE: Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 12:12:09
LtMandella
 interesting idea. Could I really hear a difference?

I think it would be $200 for a pair of those discrete op amps. And I will have to check if the breeze audio has socketed those chips. I can't recall.

Come to think of it, those chips are probably counterfeits of counterfeits in there now anyway, so even replacment with authentic 5532s from reputable manufacturer could be an improvement.

The new caps sure seemed to make a difference. I was not expecting the thing to sound any better after replacing the caps, I was just hoping to prevent a blow-up...

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 12:17:07
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Could I really hear a difference?

I cannot speak for you, but I certainly could. Click here for a post from a couple of years ago when I installed mine.

I think it would be $200 for a pair of those discrete op amps.

If you follow the link I provided in the previous post, you'll find a pair of duals runs $95+shipping.

 

actually you still can, posted on January 4, 2021 at 15:39:22
NuWave
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: March 22, 2002
 you could brag about how CHEAP you were able to get that sound. At least that's what I WOULD do. That's as good a brag as any.

 

RE: actually you still can, posted on January 4, 2021 at 16:11:16
LtMandella
 LOL and *better* than many :)

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 16:12:54
LtMandella
 Are you familiar with the breeze audio amp?

I am not sure if those are the correct replacements and even if those chips in the amp are socketed...

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 16:26:03
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Are you familiar with the breeze audio amp?

Not until I googled it and found one for sale on Amazon where I found the circuit board pics. Is the amp found in the link below what you have?

I am not sure if those are the correct replacements and even if those chips in the amp are socketed...

Not only is the price for the V5s found in the link I provided, but also a comprehensive list of compatible replacements. Why not click the text and visit their site?

If not, here's the complete list:

AD823, AD823AN, AD8066, AD8620, AD712, AD827, C4570, JRC4556AD, JRC4580, JRC5532, JRC5532D, JRC5532, LF353, LM4562, LME49860, LM833N, LME49720, MUSES8920, NE5532, NEC4520, NEC4570, NJM2068D, NJM2114, NJM2214D, NJM4558, NJM4558D, NJM4560, NJM5532, NJM4558P, OP275, OPA1612, OPA2277PA, OPA2132, OPA2134, OPA2604, JRC4558, RC4558D, RC4558P, TL052, TL072, MUSES01, MUSES02, MUSES8820, MUSES8920, MUSES8832, BA15532.

As for being socketed, it all depends if the Breeze Audio amplifier found on Amazon in the price range you suggested is the same. The pic clearly shows sockets.

 

how does that work, posted on January 4, 2021 at 16:28:42
NuWave
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: March 22, 2002
 can you use that with a preamp? So it's like a 'normal' amp with its own volume control? Not familiar with a chip amp. Probably not enough power for my Vandersteens though. Having a tough time beating my Meridian amp, my AR VT60 couldn't do it.

 

RE: how does that work, posted on January 4, 2021 at 16:51:51
LtMandella
 it is an integrated amp I guess. It uses some other chip for preamp stage. At least, I am not using it with a preamp. Input is direct from Modi 3 DAC.

I have seen youtube video where someone changed a resistor on one of the chips to lower the gain, which also lowers distortion. But that change looks really awkward due to limited working space inside so I didn't try it.

Changing the caps was a pain, but turned out to be worth it. I was not that impressed with the sound prior to that change and did not expect the improvement in sound. I decided to change the caps solely to avoid blow up since I provide close to max power voltage limit and the caps were very likely counterfeit. Had to twist off the old ones, desolder the old cap leads from the board and install the new caps. Need a good soldering iron, good lighting, and patience for that work.

Also I have efficient speakers - supposedly 92db. And the distortion on these amps goes up with increase in output. I don't need to push it with my Ref3A DeCapo I speakers.

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 17:12:11
LtMandella
 I edited my OP to show the board. No socketed chips. A TPA3116 AMP chip does all the work.

 

If only..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 17:31:20
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 you had purchased the "Ultra" $52 model...

 

RE: If only..., posted on January 4, 2021 at 18:27:28
LtMandella
 what, you think I am made of money?

 

RE: how does that work, posted on January 5, 2021 at 07:17:38
Grinnell
Audiophile

Posts: 709
Location: Front Range
Joined: December 23, 2007
 The de Capos are pretty efficient speakers. I run mine with a 4 watt Decware Mini Torii and it gets loud enough in a 12x20 room. And they can make anything sound great too!

 

RE: how does that work, posted on January 5, 2021 at 08:32:29
LtMandella
 Never heard a single ended tube amp. Bet it sounds great with the DeCapos.

Have you ever heard an OTL tube amp? The only other tube amps I have owned were a pair of McIntosh MC30s and they sounded really wonderful also. I regret selling them.

 

At what cost "SOTA" amps nowadays?, posted on January 5, 2021 at 09:48:14
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9858
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 So objectivists, (at least), consider the Purifi 1ET400A to be about SOTA. You can buy a Purifi stereo amp for $1000, (see link below). Or you can pay and order of magnitude more for a prestige brand, e.g. Pass Labs X150.8, about the same power for $6500.

With, say, the Pass you get magnificent style and workmanship and lengthy warranty. You won't get nominally SOTA measurements.

To the objectivists the Pass is "obviously inferior" to the Purifi -- after all, it's "settled science" that all amps sound the same" and great measurements are icing on the cake.

But the Pass on a good many other esteemed makers don't subscribed to the "all amps sound the same" cant. They aim to tweak their amplifiers to produce elegant sound in world of less than perfect recordings and associated equipment and listening spaces.

BTW, I'm probably going to get a pair of Burson op amps for my VTV Purifi amp. The Bursons will produce more distortion but may sound noticably better especially playing the typical recording.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

;) -nt, posted on January 5, 2021 at 10:00:19
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002

 

i never understood that....., posted on January 6, 2021 at 09:41:12
NuWave
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: March 22, 2002
 how a crazy 4 watts can drive a speaker. Always though 50/60/100/200 watt amps were needed. What if i swapped that with my 100 watt Meridian?

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 18, 2021 at 15:42:31
LtMandella
 if you get a moment can you post a pic of the full board? I am thinking about buying one - the "2.1" version with socketed opamps seems still available on Amazon.

BUT I would not buy unless I could change out the caps, and I can't see if that is possible (adequate space) from the Amazon pics.

 

Just return to, posted on January 18, 2021 at 15:56:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 this post which contains a link to Azon with a pic of the entire board.

 

It all depends what's on your playlist :), posted on January 18, 2021 at 16:11:50
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Perhaps if it includes uncorrelated sine waves, THD+noise might have more relevance.

I learned that lesson in 1974 comparing Crown to Audio Research using familiar music.

 

RE: Just return to, posted on January 18, 2021 at 19:08:26
LtMandella
 thanks. looks like they are unavailable now. I will keep looking.

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 18, 2021 at 20:32:50
LtMandella
 OK I bought one from that Amazon link, we'll see if/when it shows.

By the way, I would like to bypass the "preamp" section of that amp.

Is it possible to defeat the internal preamp on the chip and send in my own line level? Should be possible?

 

RE: Confession is in order, posted on January 18, 2021 at 23:38:34
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 It's been 6 years now that I use exclusively those tiny class D chip amps at home, even on the big horn rig.
I have a heavily modded Trends TA10.1 on the 500 to 20KHz range, on the horns
I have the same (I think) breeze audio you're showing, on the 60 to 500Hz range, driving 15inch drivers in bass horns
(the sub bass use conventional class AB amps, those were delivered with the subs of course, but when those die... class D will take their place)
I have a couple unused SMSL SA50 that serve as temporary replacement, for example when I go to some party and the amp dies (happened more than once)
I have a NuForce Icon amp in the bedroom.

In all honesty, ever since I bought the first Trends amp 6 ears ago, I completely stopped using other amps and I sold everything I had.
The combination of great (really, great!) sound, fuss free operation, low consumption, absence of generated heat, that's something you can't beat and it's extremely addictive.

Now, LtMandella, do yourself a favor and buy a very good (but cheap!) linear regulated power supply from the Zero-Zone brand on AliExpress, to replace the small SMPS, and you might put your oTLs to rest for quite a while!

 

RE: how does that work, posted on January 18, 2021 at 23:47:54
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Prior to bi-amping, I was using the 6 watts Trends TA10.1 full range on my horns. Sounded slightly thin without preamp, but with a good preamp in front sounded amazing.
Now of course I'm multi-amping so there's a preamp, an active crossover, then the chip amps - the nice thing about the Trends amp (the British Amptastic has that too) is you can easily disconnect the volume pot using switch inside on the PCB, and doing that gives you even more transparency when used as a power amp.

You can go crazy replacing every passive part with something much better, that's what has been done with my Trends, everything down to the resistors and connectors has been upgraded, even the cable that goes from the PCB to the speaker terminals. Its sounds absolutely amazing.

On the Breeze audio amp, I swapped the NE5532 chip that's the "preamp" section with an OPA2132 and the difference was extremely easy to hear, even when used in the limited 50 to 500 range.

 

RE: Now..., posted on January 18, 2021 at 23:57:39
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 before you go crazy with discrete op-amps, I would try something like OPA2132P: it sounds very good, isn't fussy about power supply requirement, it will be a fantastic improvement without putting the circuit at risk

 

RE: Confession is in order, posted on January 19, 2021 at 00:02:49
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 I don't know how much voltage you need but, this is the linear PSU I bought and it made a TREMENDOUS jump in SQ.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001179310807.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4doXwI0H

 

I happily, posted on January 19, 2021 at 06:08:26
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 dumped similar OPA2134s and OPA2604s for discrete devices almost three years ago.

Risk?

 

you convinced me, posted on January 19, 2021 at 06:29:04
LtMandella
 to get a linear supply.

I read somewhere recently that it makes a lot of sense to think of amplifiers really as modulaters: they modulate the power supply. that's all they do.

So amplifier quality can only be as good as power supply quality.

And I think you are doubly correct about the "mods". I cannot believe how mucvh of an improvement in sound quality I obtained from the breeze audio amp by replacing the caps with authentic nichions.

I am also going to work on seeing if I can bypass the preamp stages on the boards (I bought another breeze: the "ultimate" version that has socketed opamps). I have a Transcendent sound grounded grid tube preamp that I love the sound of.

I did find also that placing a decent quality passive attenuator between the DAC output and the amp input, and reducing the level going into the amp by 50% of so, has sweetened up the vocals and drums. I think my DAC was overloading the amp input stage.

The only thing I am worried about now, and it is a real concern, is speaker safety. I have $3K+ Ref3A DeCapo I speakers.

I don't think these amps have any speaker protection circuitry (hope I am wrong about that). So if a cap or some other component blows, will my attempt at savings from buying a $100 amp wipe out $3000 speakers??

To be clear though for any lurkers, if I A/B the $2500 OTL tube amp vs. the $100 breeze audio chip amp, the OTL does sound better in certain areas.

But it is amazing how musically satisfying the chip amp is - at 1/25th the cost!


 

RE: you convinced me, posted on January 19, 2021 at 21:32:53
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 I never had one of those amps die and destruct a speaker (yet?); my gut feeling is: when those fail, they just stop working, that's all. I may be wrong tho so don't take this for gospel!
Still, if you're feeling uneasy, maybe you could buy a different class D amp, for about double what you paid, with a better "pedigree", for example something from SMSL (those are rugged as f**k).
If you can live with 10 watts per channel (surprisingly strong watts, tho) by all means
try an Amptastic Mini1. It's considered to be the best T-amp out of the box, with no mods needed, and you can bypass the volume pot to use it as a true power amp. It cost about 100 euro last time I checked (if the company, in UK, still exists after Covid...)

Did you order the PSU already?

 

RE: you convinced me, posted on January 20, 2021 at 06:31:38
LtMandella
 no psu yet - ad to feed the dern kid this week. 15 years old and every other day I have to buy bulk provisions at Sam's club!

Also I am thinking I maybe to get a "lab" type linear power supply. I am working on a Class A amp kit (PASS clone) and I will need at least two DC supplies of 24v and 5 amps *continuous* each, so if I buy chinese it will need to be rated at 30v+ and 10 amps each supply I suppose.

Is that t-amp still available? doesn't seem so.

 

RE: you convinced me, posted on January 20, 2021 at 22:28:25
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Don't get a lab supply. Those aren't designed for audio.
Zero-zone products are cheap but have serious audiophile pretentions.
Trust me I tried that kind of supplies on my amps it sounded like shit, the stock SMPS supplies sounded better!

the amptastic website is still on but I have no idea if they still operate anything...

 

RE: Now..., posted on February 8, 2021 at 18:05:54
LtMandella



I found a TDA3116 amp on the bay that has the two socketed 5532 chips and received it today.

I presume the chips and caps are all counterfeit so I ordered authentic (theoretically) versions of both from Digikey.

I will make the replacements and decide if it is worth trying the discrete component op amps.

The dern thing sounds pretty good right out of the box.

I got the "2.1" version, it has two TDA3116 chips, one is used for the 50wpc stereo outputs and the other TDA3116 is bridged on the board for 100wpc output to drive a passive subwoofer (there is a low pass filter on the board).

I have an HSU powered sub and I will try the chip amp subwoofer output with the HSU. IIRC the HSU has both low and high level inputs (have to pull it out of storage). My preference would be to use the amp built into the HSU but will have to see how that goes.



 

Good luck!, posted on February 9, 2021 at 05:35:47
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Burson FETs would refine its character.

Not sure why you spent money replacing the 5532s since they've been around for more than forty years.

 

RE: Good luck!, posted on February 9, 2021 at 07:46:34
LtMandella
 [[ money replacing the 5532s ]]

64 cents a piece from Digikey. Even I can afford that, and I figure the supplied chips are fake so might as well hear how the authentic TI op amps sound.

And I will probably next try swapping the op amps for different type IC as recommended by another poster, before I try the more expensive discrete components version.

And a little practice swapping chips won't hurt me.

Plus I received the Beresford amp switcher today so I will be able to do A/B comparisons quite easily now.

 

Plus..., posted on February 9, 2021 at 07:52:31
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 64 cents a piece from Digikey...

Shipping! Another ten bucks?

 

RE: Plus..., posted on February 9, 2021 at 07:57:28
LtMandella
Shipping was $3.49 via USPS and I have caps in the order also, so prorating the expense for all the components, it is pretty reasonable :)

 

Good deal -nt, posted on February 9, 2021 at 08:09:25
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37609
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002

 

Page processed in 0.034 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]