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Why preamps are expensive

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Posted on November 28, 2020 at 12:41:00
Mike K
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Posts: 13966
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
Interesting video from Paul McGowan of PS Audio, who knows a thing or two
on the subject.

https://youtu.be/3cnhzBdbsdw

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

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RE: Why preamps are expensive, posted on November 28, 2020 at 15:34:38
Cut-Throat
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I was going to view this until I saw the Author..... I have zero respect for this charlatan.



 

RE: Why preamps are expensive, posted on November 28, 2020 at 18:36:42
Mike K
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Posts: 13966
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Why do you think he's a charlatan?

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Complete Self Serving shill babble, posted on November 28, 2020 at 18:44:31
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: April 14, 2009
IF your system is reasonably well setup ?
A Simple Stepped attenuator Or a Transformer volume control.
Is ALL one needs.
Adding stupid amounts of extraneous circuitry typically inherent in a "Pre Amp".. Only benefits those Selling such a foolish contraption. Less crap circuitry degrading the signal path is desirable :-)

 

RE: Why preamps are expensive, posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:20:16
AbeCollins
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"Why do you think he's a charlatan?"

Did you see the video where Paul obviously knows nothing about the Raspberry Pi and Raspberry Pi based network streamers yet he goes on to tell us how horrible they sound?

It was humorous listening to him incorrectly describe the Raspberry Pi because he clearly had no clue what he was talking about, yet he knew it had to sound bad.

That said, I do like some of his products. I just wish he would spare us his embarrassing wise old grand pappy YouTube shtick.


 

RE: Complete Self Serving shill babble, posted on November 28, 2020 at 23:33:58
KanedaK
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Posts: 2515
Location: Brussels
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I always prefer the sound WITH a good preamp in the system than without. But it is, sadly, very often the weak link in the chain, specially at the lower end / entry level of things.

 

RE: My Pre-amp, Sir, is a straight wire with gain, interrupted only here and there by..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 05:10:00
...let's see...




and sounds far better than it's passive companion ga6thering dust on the next shelf down to my ears.

Sharp-edged Tweets at Dawn then, hmmm?

 

I gave up using a preamp, posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:40:31
airtime
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Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
Since most modern sources put out 2v, WHY would I need one? I do use a Pass B1 buffer with a volume control. One of the few things you would still need a preamp for today, to buffer between a source and amp.

Otherwise why would you attenuate your signal down, add gain (and distortion), and inverter or even second gain stage (more distortion) that is only going to be attenuated off.

Outside of a source selector switch and getting rid of tone controls, preamps seemed to be making themselves redundant. But they are being repackaged and incorrectly renamed as buffers that have that selector switch and VC.

 

RE: Why preamps are expensive, posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:45:54
airtime
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Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
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I've seen a few of his videos. Honestly, I don't understand how he made it in audio. He must have a good team doing R&D behind him. Because it sure ain't him!!!

 

Well said!, posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:46:42
E-Stat
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Especially the conclusion. ;)

 

I once believed like you and Bare..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:51:48
E-Stat
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and successfully used DACT stepped attenuators for a decade. Still take a passive approach in the garage system.

As with other subtle aspects of audio performance, it took me a while to understand what the late Charles Hanson observed about the superiority of using a very good preamp.

 

RE: Buffer stages, posted on November 29, 2020 at 08:00:25
tketcham
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I use a preamp with two balanced and three unbalanced source inputs, taking advantage of its active circuitry with zero gain. It basically eliminates the differences between balanced and unbalanced source inputs. Or it seems to with my system.

I also use tubed buffer stages because I found that the relatively low input impedance of my Class D power amp (and subwoofer plate amps) can affect frequency response at the extremes when I run preamps directly. Plus, I enjoy a hint of tube bloom.

The buffer stage between the preamp and power amp includes a volume control bypass so it acts as a true buffer. The buffer stage between the preamp and plate amps is basically a single input tube preamp and why I use it in front of the subwoofers, it does less harm here than with the mains. The volume control is actually handy in having the subs integrate well with the mains.

Tom

 

No, having just a VC isn't the way to go, posted on November 29, 2020 at 08:16:27
airtime
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My position isn't using only a VC between a source and amp. What I am saying is you still do need a buffer circuit. Having only a VC doesn't address the impedance mismatch between source and amp.


What I AM saying is that it is unnecessary to have one or two gain stages that are only adding coloration and distortion. Only to be attenuated back out.

 

For the same reason that divorces are expensive....., posted on November 29, 2020 at 08:25:27
.....they're worth it.

 

RE: For the same reason that divorces are expensive....., posted on November 29, 2020 at 08:39:10
unfortunately divorces don't balance impedance between source and amp though ... well, maybe in the abstract

regards,

 

RE: Why preamps are expensive, posted on November 29, 2020 at 16:44:40
Des
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Have to agree but I think he is an excellent marketer of OK gear that wants to be Hi end--

But hands up those that have not fallen for similar Schick in the Audio uphill grind?

At least PS A is still making product and giving people a job-so one tick there!

Des

 

He talks and writes a good game, he's somewhat personable, he seems to believe... , posted on November 29, 2020 at 17:11:07
musetap
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what he says and he's a VERY successful business man.

Let's just be thankful he's stayed with audio and NOT ventured into politics, where
he might actually do some damage.

I stopped reading or watching his videos LAST decade.

I've been quite happy with PS Audio power equipment though.





"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Why Are Divorces So Expensive? , posted on November 30, 2020 at 07:06:02
jaynemo
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Posts: 1881
Location: Connecticut
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because they are worth it! Trust me, I know!

 

I definite prefer using preamp, posted on November 30, 2020 at 08:59:34
bouncy ball
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especially it is from a tube base type.


Any tube base line amp, with separated power supply is going to be expensive. If you seen anything comes with tube regulation, they all sit at around 7K and above.

 

RE: Why Are Divorces So Expensive? , posted on November 30, 2020 at 10:17:34
I know the trip ... gave her most everything I had just to return all that she gave me and got richer from the deal

there's a cowboy song in there somewhere

regards,

 

PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 10:35:13
Bill Way
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My only experience is owning a Power Director 3.5, which does what it's supposed to, and asking him about some system pops I was getting, wondering if his gear, then owned for over a decade, could be contributing to it. He responded immediately with good info, and stayed in touch until I solved the problem. Definitely not the behavior of a charlatan.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 11:48:05
that's a solid recommendation ... of course with most of these companies you wonder what happens if they don't grow enough to bring expertise on board to continue the brand as established when the founder moves on ... in every sense of that turn of phrase ... I've never owned any PS products and though I've heard some, albeit briefly, cannot comment beyond the fact that were I to get close enough in my budget to afford it I would still hold out for Mac tubed gear ... despite it's critics / detractors, I have so many compelling memory associations

forgive the digression, I'm curious, what turned out to be the problem?

with regards,

 

RE: PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 16:31:27
Bill Way
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The problem was loud popping on powering off after my Manley Snappers had Manley's soft-start circuit installed. Gamma at Manley said send 'em back, but then said they were working fine. He suggested maybe my old VTL preamp was sending DC at the outputs, which turned out to be the cause.

When I sent them back, Gamma got them on the bench the day they arrived and called me with what he found, and Paul McGowan stayed in touch as well, as I had asked him if his line filter might be part of the problem. It's so nice when companies respond like that.

I like all Mac tube gear. I also heard a pair of s/s MC2500's on big B&W's in a studio that sounded very good as well. For me, it's just the first-generation s/s Mac gear that disappointed. Well... that and the ridiculous blue meters.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 18:58:08
huh ... as if there was a capacitance discharge created by adding the soft start circuit to the line filter ... a backed up drain circuit! at least your tweeters didn't get banged up

no blue meters for you? but that's part of the charm!

thanks for the reply & sharing some Mac love

regards,

 

Yup!.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 21:06:46
kootenay
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My tube line stage preamp was beyond that price range, however, the SS line stage that replaces it was twice as much.

I still prefer the line stage preamp not only that it sounds good to my ears but it's very handy in connecting other sources such as CDP, digital streamers, tuner, reel to reel, cassette deck, and a turntable that I still enjoy every day.

 

RE: PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 21:48:40
Bill Way
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I wouldn't mind a pair of white meters...




"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: PS Audio, posted on November 30, 2020 at 22:06:26
me too, same here, yes please

golly ... $1100 in 1971?

grab a pair now ... $60K

of course you could build them with the right 'Iron'

good luck with that!

I think I know of someone that frequents AA that could actually do better

or so I've read

anyway, it feels late here, take care!

 

I think they make some excellent gear...., posted on December 1, 2020 at 19:20:48
AbeCollins
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...at least in their "high-value" lineup. Not so sure how their high-end line stacks up against comparably priced competition.

I've liked most of their DACs over the years, but I haven't tried their top end DACs. I like my PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC.

When I was getting deeply involved in vinyl I tried many phono preamps. I thought the PS Audio GCPH was an excellent sounding phono preamp for both MC & MM, and it's very flexible with gain and loading. If I were to have just one reasonably price phono pre, that's the one I would keep. In fact, I still have it.

I also had the PS Audio P300 power plant - the original power "regenerator". It served me well for 20 years before it finally crapped out [leaky bulging capacitors].




 

He lost credibility with me, posted on December 3, 2020 at 11:55:17
See his video where he completely trashes playback using Raspberry streamer.

While everyone else in the world raves about the playback...

Of course, he sells preamps in the multi-thousand dollar range. If that was my livlihood I would trash a $40 raspberry too, no matter how great it sounded.

 

RE: He lost credibility with me, posted on December 3, 2020 at 14:12:06
wjernst
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: Virginia
Joined: December 3, 2020
PS Audio? I've tried to watch the videos on You Tube. While I've learned a bit, 90% of it seems like self-promotion for PS Audio. I thought for a bit, maybe a PS Audio preamplifier would be a potential option as there was a used one available for about $900. However, a search brought up the AudioScienceReview site where that same preamplifier was thoroughly tested. The results? Not too impressive and certainly not worth the coin at MSRP.

 

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