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Why do audiophiles....

106.203.89.220
Posted on November 16, 2020 at 21:34:04
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 go for very low powered SET amps and all. Why they seem to be very proud of 3 watt or 5 or 8 watt tube amps? These guys are not hard up for cash and why dont they go for at least 20 watts? Is less power more quality? Why do they restrict severely the choice of speakers. Is it a feeling of Exclusivity that makes you not wear masks?

Bill

 

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RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 16, 2020 at 22:10:06
OldNuke
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: Silicon Valley
Joined: November 18, 2014
 Two vastly different things. Low powered SET's are a choice in sound quality, not wearing a mask to announcing your stupidity to the world.
I'm happy with my low powered SET's and high efficiency speakers, I'm not asking you to listen to them or die from there sound.

 

It's akin to it ain't the meat, it's the motion..., posted on November 16, 2020 at 22:48:59
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 less is more, big things/small packages, quality over quantity, etc.

But in a... sonic sense.

Don't think "exclusivity" would factor into this pursuit of the hobby any more or less than any other.

What/where the hell do masks fit in?

That seems more desperate for attention than normal.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Let's not be too judgemental, posted on November 17, 2020 at 04:29:06
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 SETs are a choice as is the high efficiency speakers they are able to drive. Choosers like the sound and that's the full explanation.

To be sure SETs produce lots of distortion but it is of the most pleasant sort, 2nd order harmonic distortion. It's been know literally since antiquity that this distortion is pleasant but higher order HD sounds increasingly discordant and harsh.

My own preference is for very low overall distortion but I'll admit that such equipment is very unforgiving of bad, e.g. overly bright, recordings of which there are many unfortunately.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 05:26:04
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Because they sound better. And more often than not they (Me) are paying more for the 2 watts than a higher powered amp. I do use 500 watt per channel Class 'D' Amps on my Bass Bins. Does that Count?

Oh, I wear a mask too, whatever that has to do with anything.



 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 05:43:37
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Stupid are those who do not wear a mask. I wear a mask.

Hope you do.

Cheers

Bill

 

It's a taste and it's a passion, posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:12:28
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 The most important thing to remember in audio is that personal taste matters the most. The wonderful thing about this hobby is the variety, which seems to be fading a bit these days.

Low watt setups are a passion, a hobby, a challenge and a tweakers delight.

If you've ever heard a REAL SET setup you would either say this is Ok, or say this is the best thing I've ever heard. Either way it's a personal taste.

Me personally, I like a EL84 with 20 watts or so. But I have tremendous respect for those guys and their commitment to the hobby. And also they don't seem to fall for the audio snake oil nonsense, like titanium wall plate screws are really going to be the deal breaker!

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:20:03
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2382
Joined: September 27, 2004
 If one has high efficiency speakers, then there's really no need for high powered amps. If you can get by with only a handful of watts, you have a much wider choice of amp types than others, particularly owners of most electrostatics.

As others have mentioned the character of sound from SETs is most appealing and many users favour this over the harder sound from many other designs.

It's not a cost saving exercise - many SETs are at least as costly as Class A or Class A/B when built using comparable quality components and running costs are of course higher than SS designs.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:31:58
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 I have a friend who builds horn speakers. He plays them with tube arms but of more than 20 watts per channel. He wouldnt listen to non tube amps. His system sounds very musical, warm and free flowing. He always talks about a SET amp he wants to build. I know the dedication and devotion he expresses has convertrd to tubes. But I have asked him to invite me when his 5 watt amp is done. Lot of time wasted already due to Covid. Will patiently wait.Meanwhile will do everything possible to prevent the spread of the pandemic.

Regards

Bill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:32:12
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 And I'm just as adamant that you wearing your mask (especially alone in your car) tells me how stupid you are. Two opinions there, mate.






Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:35:10
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Yes, yes. You are all so smart. Pat yourself on the back for your virtue signaling...................


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 06:54:18
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 What's your opinion on Gravity?



 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 07:05:36
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Gravity is just a hoax and a way for some people to make jobs for themselves. Can you see gravity, can you touch gravity? It's just there to make ME look bad when I fall down!

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 07:19:29
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Comparing a virus to a scientific law just makes you look silly. But be my guest.....








Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

Technically Gravity sucks, posted on November 17, 2020 at 07:46:04
merdy
Audiophile

Posts: 1626
Location: New paltz,ny
Joined: July 25, 2001
 N/t

Silence is golden duct tape is silver

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 07:55:55
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 They like euphonic distortion.

There is no other rational explanation for choosing little 2nd order generators over capable amps.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:13:48
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 Gravity must be rallied against with trucks and flags.
Gsquared

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:22:28
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I'm against it. It's my given right to fly off into space.

 

I heard a 300B SET driving Totem monitors, posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:31:56
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 at a dealer's showroom and it was pretty fantastic sounding. I don't quite care for those horn loudspeakers I often saw at shows.

I didn't fall for it because I didn't quite take to those giant glowing 300B's in the CARY Audio's monoblock amplifiers.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:35:52
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Real science doesn't care what Fox news is selling that month. This was just a test run, and we failed. The next one won't be be so kind. Luckily the "non believers" will be the first to go. Unfortunately I'll be the second because of you.

Keep the faith - but do remember that when you're on a vent.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:42:38
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 "And I'm just as adamant that you wearing your mask (especially alone in your car) tells me how stupid you are. Two opinions there, mate."

OK, that was hysterical: one is a fantasy (yours) and one is a medical fact. There are no opinions when it comes to facts.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 08:44:11
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2081
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 16, 2002
 I wear a mask listening to SETs. Dangerous sh*t!

 

Ummm..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 10:31:25
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 maybe because someone else will be using the car right after I'm done with it.

A wipedown of surfaces between drivers as well.

But in general the less you handle a mask but putting it on and off is my interpretation. So if you're making several stops, it's best to leave it on through the entire trip.

This might not be the situation with every person in a car you see. But call them stupid if you wish. "sticks and stones"

Cheers!

Jonesy




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 10:42:16
Mike B.
Audiophile

Posts: 26356
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 1, 1999
 I have found them to be good midrange amps. Not bass or very high frequencies. Micro demands on amps can be huge in terms of power demands. They are retro. 1930's tech with current components and tubes.


 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 10:57:14
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Stay home if you are sick.

Wash your hands.

Don't touch your face.

Don't get around sick people.

It's all the common sense things we have done for many years to avoid OTHER viruses. The death rate now has subsided to that of a heavy flu season. Did we ever lose our minds over something like that?

Look, yes it's a more serious virus than the flu. Yes people have died from it (not as many as you are led to believe though).

If you are scared of it, stay home. We were bamboozled to think that it was so serious people had to vote from home. But those same people are out at Walmart every weekend rubbing elbows. They couldn't stand in a line with a mask on, six feet apart to vote in person? Bulls&*t!

So if you feel better wearing a mask, I won't make fun of you for doing it. That is as long as aren't driving solo in your car, or out jogging in the middle of nowhere. Then you are fodder for my ridicule.........


Oz


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 17, 2020 at 11:01:33
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Ok, wear it, don't wear it. I don't care. And if me not wearing one scares you, keep away. We'll call it me doing my part for social distancing.........






Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

So those who listen to SET amps don't wear masks. Interesting thought process there. nt, posted on November 17, 2020 at 11:56:16
viridian
 Nt

 

SETs have several advantages, posted on November 17, 2020 at 11:57:22
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4778
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Lower power is preferred because it has wider bandwidth; above about 8 watts its difficult to get 20-20,000Hz response. The wider the response the less phase shift.

SETs have a distortion character that decreases to unmeasurable as you run the power down. This is all about that 'first watt'. At these levels they can be quite neutral!

SETs have what is called a 'quadratic non-linearity' which is to say they tend to make as a primary distortion component the 2nd harmonic. This is relatively innocuous to the human ear, but if you have the amp on a speaker that is efficient enough, its really not going to show up.

The trick here is speaker efficiency, and that is where many SET users are doing themselves a disservice as its common to see users with speakers that are too inefficient. Then the more traditional reasons as stated elsewhere in this thread start to show up.

Some argue that SETs are also very dynamic for their power level, but this is actually a downside- its caused by distortion interacting with the ear/brain system; the result of using a speaker that is too inefficient.

 

Gravity, like evolution, is "just a theory", posted on November 17, 2020 at 12:49:02
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1291
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 Trouble is, I still haven't figured out how to levitate.

 

Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 17, 2020 at 14:00:54
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 They can be quite beguiling. Someone once said they sounded more real than real. I lived in SET-land for a good 10 years. I still have 7 SETs lying around, I got quite attached to most of them.
Audio is and has always been about trade-offs and compromises. SETs are no different. I suggest you find a good SET based system and seriously listen with an open mind, you might be surprised.
As for your mask comment, it sounds childish, and petty.
Jack

 

RE: not as many, posted on November 17, 2020 at 14:26:59
LtMandella
 "not as many as you are led to believe though"

We knew there was a conspiracy nut in there :) And you let the cat out of the bag!

 

RE: Seriously? After years and years of this ketchup and mustard debate, y'all rise?, posted on November 17, 2020 at 20:03:14
B. Scarpia
 nt

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 17, 2020 at 20:32:55
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 I have with a tube maniac driving a well known Horn speaker. I love it and can listen for ever. It was a 20 watts per channel amp. My question is why go so low as 5 watts and then buy so called high sensitivity speakers. It eliminates so many good speaker choices.

As for masks everybody should wear one no matter what.

Cheers

Bill

 

RE: Seriously? After years and years of this ketchup and mustard debate, y'all rise?, posted on November 17, 2020 at 20:35:16
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Hope you are well and moving around and all set to lift those fantastic heavy speakers.

Cheers

Bill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 18, 2020 at 01:53:33
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I think you have to wear a mask these days when listening to SET amplifiers. It's the way of the future. YMMV ;-)

On the other hand, I decided to replace my 400-watt stereo amplifier with a pair of 1200-watt monoblocks and the sound from my Thiel speakers improved dramatically. I could never go back. However, I've never tried a 5-watt SET amplifier.

Best regards,
John Elison


 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 18, 2020 at 01:59:12
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > It's my given right to fly off into space.

I think you'll need a gravity amplifier for that. You might even need three gravity amplifiers for proper stabilization when flying through space!

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: SETs have several advantages, posted on November 18, 2020 at 02:17:49
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 You mean SET users can never enjoy a speaker like Rogers LS3/5A? And the several great 80 to 85 db speakers? That is a pity.

Bill

 

RE: Gravity, like evolution, is "just a theory", posted on November 18, 2020 at 02:48:03
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Did you try Transcendental meditation? The other possibility is Rishikesh's air.

Cheers

Bill

 

RE: not as many, posted on November 18, 2020 at 03:43:24
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Call me what you will. I'm not easily led.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

Okay here goes., posted on November 18, 2020 at 03:57:13
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Let's look at the case against the lower watt (under 10) amps

1) Severely limit speaker choices - this argument seems to me to fail because most people don't buy 10 speakers for 1 amplifier I am I right? Most people buy ONE set of front main loudspeakers and One amplifier (or monoblocks) to drive the speakers.

So who cares if the SET amp can't drive 95/100 speakers that are not in your living room. The SET amp only needs to drive the speakers you own.

Chances are SET amp owners didn't start with a SET - it is a "final destination kind of thing. So they, like me, have already auditioned or owned ATC speakers and Parasound JC-1, or B&W and Classe, or Sonus Faber and Accuphase, Vivid Audio with D'Agostino, Or Rockport Technologies with VTL, or SoundLab and Bricasti, or Wilson Audio and ARC and on it goes.

2) People who go to tube amplifiers may be trying to get a band-aid solution trying to fix bright tweeters or add warmth. SET is a bit different - with 8 watts or less of power you have to do some homework and legwork and listening.

Over the last couple of weeks, I've been listening to some of the partnerships above and I have had some fun listening to it but none of them would replace what I have.

The better value proposition of the above set-ups is ATC and Parasound. But I understand why Steve Hoffman prefers and owns a similar system to mine over the ATC/SS rig that he has worked with for decades. He has mastered nearly 1000 Classical music SACDs and most of the big-name artists like Miles Davis, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Eva Cassidy, John Coltrane, etc.

Yet when he is home listening it is with a version of my speakers and a sub 20 watt 211 SET.

So when I first auditioned the ATC speakers with the various SS amps at the dealer here in Hong Kong I was quite impressed. The problem comes in after a few auditions and some cracks appear in the armor. The Hi-fi elements are solid - I sit and I listen to the sound and I am fully impressed. Then I notice that halfway through every track I am looking at my watch and thinking about the next cut I should test. "let's see how it handles acoustic piano - let's see how it will do on steel-string guitar - let's see how it will render Loreena McKennett.

After 45 minutes - and with vocals - I don't want to listen to it anymore. This is a pretty high dollar set-up and it may be a good studio tool and it does sound like good hi-fi - big bass tight - great stereo imaging - a nice exacting nature to things. But in the end I know why a mastering engineer like Steve would use them in the studio and go home and listen to music with a version of my speakers and a SET amp.

3) I don't think audio shows can actually truly capture this. If you think about it, most people go to audio shows looking to hear exactly what the ATC/Parasound or Vivid Audio/Momentum or Soundlab/Bricasti or Martin Logan Neolith/Pass Labs offer up. The sound that bowls you over and wows you in the first 2 minutes that you walk into the room. A "Release the Kraken" experience. PS I love it too - just can't handle it for long.

4) It goes back to that ole left brain right brain thing. The right brain hemisphere is geared to artistic, creative personality while the left brain hemisphere is logic and mathematics, and intellect. We are all on some spectrum somewhere in the middle but one is usually more dominant - like handedness.

In the end, you just choose the one you like to listen to more. I greatly GREATLY prefer listening to Eva Cassidy or Jackson Browne on my system over all of the above set-ups I've been trying out the last month.

But like I say - I like those other set-ups for some things as well and so I have been looking for a SS or class D power amplifier for those hard to drive speakers. But the money I put there is less money for my SET system. I listen more to music than Krakens so there is only so much money I am willing to put into a slam and bang sound.






 

RE: SETs have several advantages, posted on November 18, 2020 at 04:23:21
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 To call the LS3/5a a "loud" speaker might be a little generous.

The LS3/5a - most of them - are only rated to handle 50 watts maximum. More than that is a waste of time.

So

82dB -1 watt
85dB -2 watts
88dB -8 watts
91dB -16 watts
94dB -32 watts
95dB -~50watts (and you should also check the maximum SPL capability of most LS-3/5as because they may not reach this!)
97dB - 64 watts (too bad the speaker blows up)

But even if it can - granted 7dB is noticeable but it's not earth-shattering and people who buy the LS3/5a aren't buying them to slam AC/DC.

The smarter shopper would spend half the money and buy the Audio Note AX Two which was designed by Rogers head LS-3/5a guru Andy Whittle - then you get a 90dB speaker with much better driver integration, vastly better-sounding bass, and a lot more of it - a smoother tweeter and 90dB sensitivity.

90dB - 1 w
93dB - 2w
96dB - 4w
99dB - 8w

You can put a billion-watt amp on the LS-3/5a and the AX Two will crush it with 8 watts!

Note: I like the sound of the new Rogers LS-3/5a as well as the cheaper Mistral version I recently auditioned with Cayin amplifiers. But I think you would be fine with 8 watts on them because they're just not the sort of speaker you're buying to play full organ music.


 

Your realize that all that comes down to personal preference, posted on November 18, 2020 at 06:31:31
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 RGA, I've been hearing you for almost two decades and I still get the vague feeling that you believe you're right and everyone else is wrong for not agreeing with you.

... But I suppose you don't see it that way: apologies.

RGa says,

"The better value proposition of the above set-ups is ATC and Parasound. But I understand why Steve Hoffman prefers and owns a similar system to mine over the ATC/SS rig that he has worked with for decades. He has mastered nearly 1000 Classical music SACDs and most of the big-name artists like Miles Davis, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Eva Cassidy, John Coltrane, etc.

"Yet when he is home listening it is with a version of my speakers and a sub 20 watt 211 SET."

I guess my question is, Why doesn't Hoffman master his records so that they can be listened to on truly accurate hi-fi equipment, and not require SET's distortions to be enjoyed?



Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 18, 2020 at 07:16:31
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2081
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 16, 2002
 As an owner of M700s, I was offered a chance to beta test a pair of M1200s but I declined, since I had just purchased a BLK preamp...and they pretty much expected me to purchase them. I'd love to hear a comparison though.

I have that OP Collection LP here.

 

Gravity = an easy way to model the effects of warping space/time., posted on November 18, 2020 at 07:22:56
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 The math is way easier and good enough for most applications.
Gsquared

 

"I don't think audio shows can actually truly capture this...", posted on November 18, 2020 at 07:41:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I believe that audio shows cannot capture anything particularly subtle especially given the typical quickly set up hotel room environment.

They are like car shows - look at the pretty models but... actually sample them in native environments to truly understand what they can do.

 

Just FWIW, there aren't any great speakers that are only 80dB!, posted on November 18, 2020 at 07:54:16
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4778
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 There really isn't any place for low efficiency speakers in high end audio- of anywhere else for that matter! For starters, it gets insanely difficult to come up with the power required- and that power has to actually be competent.

The next problem is something called 'thermal compression' which is caused by heating of the voice coils and does what it says- causes compression of musical dynamics. You can't throw more power at it- it just gets worse. Resolution isn't a reason for low efficiency; you can have very high resolution loudspeakers that are 98 dB. Finally bass response isn't a reason either; there are 97dB speakers that go down flat to 20Hz that will fit in most living rooms.

You can use a Rogers LS-35a with an SET, keeping in mind that once you do the math of the sensitivity and the impedance of 16 ohms, its actually 3dB more efficient than its sensitivity rating (efficiency is 1 watt/1 meter, sensitivity is 2.83 volts/1 meter). As long as the application is nearfield and not terribly loud you can make an SET work.

 

Can I pick your brain please, posted on November 18, 2020 at 08:12:29
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 You seem to really know this area, so can I please pick your brain a bit.

I've ALWAYS wanted to try a Bottlehead 2A3 kit. However, I really, and I mean I REALLY don't want to change out my speakers. I'm using Zaph SR71's at about 86-87db sensitivity. In the 90's I DIYed a number of high efficiency speakers, but never really cared for how they presented the sound. I was using low wattage vintage amps, like a 6v6, EL84, Lafayette's and Knight's, etc... Eventually moving on.

Would a Bottlehead kit work with those speakers? I only listen to classical at about 50-55db output.

 

Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 18, 2020 at 08:15:20
Rick W
 nt

 

+1 Ralph. nt!, posted on November 18, 2020 at 08:56:05
viridian
 Nt

 

Even..., posted on November 18, 2020 at 09:20:51
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 my difficult-to-drive Sound Lab stats are more efficient than that!

While I use 300 watt/channel VTLs, I've heard them driven nicely by a pair of MA-2s. :)

 

Thank you. nt, posted on November 18, 2020 at 11:40:46
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2081
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 16, 2002

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 18, 2020 at 12:13:23
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 No kidding. How many topics here somehow are turned into political bickering is a sign of the times I guess. It's truly amazing how some segue their unwanted and unwelcome politcal views into an amp/pre-amp forum. (or most any forum for that matter) Nonetheless, the moderator should delete this crap immediately and nip it in the bud. I for one come to an audio forum to avoid the sh-tshow that is the current political scene.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 18, 2020 at 15:00:13
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Have you read all the beta tester reports. I think some of them had the M700's so they probably provide a comparison. Check them out at the link below. The ones I read said the M1200's sound better than the M700's, and the M700's were rated Class "A" in Stereophile's October issue of Recommended Components.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 18, 2020 at 16:39:55
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 If you LIKE 100db sensitive or higher speakers, no reason in the world to have more than 5 watts.

For someone who owns 'stats or Magnepan? or even low sensitivity box speakers? And LIKES them that way? No small amp will do.....it's gonna be a lot more power....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 18, 2020 at 16:43:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "As for masks everybody should wear one no matter what."

Even when I'm home alone?

What SET amplifier do you have?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 18, 2020 at 19:27:50
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 You never know which way the virus comes. So is advisable to wear the mask all the time even though wearing it indoors or in the car is strictly not necessary. There are comfortable washable cotton masks. Need not be the 95s.

I sadly do not own a SET. It is in my bucket list. Not too many years left though.

Cheers

Bill

 

RE: Just FWIW, there aren't any great speakers that are only 80dB!, posted on November 18, 2020 at 19:42:44
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 I had big problems to drive my 1977 Rogers LS35a. Tried various amps like Marantz, Kenwood, Onkyo et al. Not great ones. They were driving my large Advents easy but not too satisfying for Rogers. I wrote to Advent to ask if their small Receiver would drive the Rogers. I bought one and found the 15 watt one better than the big amps. I still do not know why it was good driving the 15 ohm speaker. Not too loud and my room was small. I read in the review of Falcon LS 35a that tube amps would drive them good. Dont know about SETs.

Cheers

Bill

 

RE: Your realize that all that comes down to personal preference, posted on November 19, 2020 at 00:03:59
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Hi Feanor - I have greatly adjusted my views on this and yes it was true that I felt I was right and everyone else is wrong. My view has changed a lot since then to understand what people like in things I don't particularly like.

This is why I spend so much time going out and auditioning all these systems including systems I previously didn't care for.

To be fair what you accuse me of you do yourself - Read your reply to me and see how it comes across. So it's always a jab at SET and every time I read you the underlying message is "SETs are distorted low fi crap." You have come across that way for 20 years to me.

Of course, I still believe I am right - for me. And I will state why I like what I like more than the other system. I am just stating what I hear - Loreena McKennett on my system sounds glorious to me - on the ATC/Parasound it was "I had to turn it off it was so unlistenable" - That's just the way it was when I auditioned it.

I do not want to speak for Steve Hoffman - As I often note - a mastering engineer may be hired to work in a studio that already has its own equipment so they use what they are given. Bob Hodus hates B&W loudspeakers but he was hired to do a job at Abbey Road and that's what they use so tough luck. You use what they give you.

Steve bought a second pair of AN Es that he now uses in his mastering studio as well. But that wasn't really the point - the point which I failed to get across was systems used for cross-purposes. Some systems like the ATC may in fact be more hi-fi or more accurate in a technical sense but less enjoyable to listen to music.

Perhaps an analogy would be like a Ferrari sports car that will handle far better than a Lexus ES350 and thus you can argue the Ferrari is "more accurate" in handling and a superior driver's car than the Lexus but chances are if you are going to drive across Canada say around 5000km road trip - the Ferrari may be better but your ass is going to enjoy the Lexus ride more (all day driveable ahem listenable) versus the Ferrari for an hour and you need a chiropractor.

 

RE: Can I pick your brain please, posted on November 19, 2020 at 00:23:04
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 At those sorts of volumes you're always going to be fine because even with a 30dB peak (from a baseline of 50dB you would hit 80dB - and the vast majority of recordings are 20dB or less of peak headroom.

And that is assuming a 50dB baseline but it might be that the baseline is lower than that.

I have not heard Bottlehead - my 2a3 amps are Empress Silver parallel single-ended so I get around 7-8 watts per channel. Although they sound far more powerful than 300B amps with the same rated output. I don't know why that is but it a common sensation from 2a3 owners that they sound more powerful.

Speakers are not just sensitivity ratings so other factors come into play. Also the size of the room and how far back you sit.

And it kind of matters as to the quality of the amp (doesn't it always?). With SET the transformers become the most critical aspect of the sound. Back in the day, I compared a Meishu 300b to a Cary 300b, and the latter sound flat boring, slow, and plodding compared to the Meishu. The Cary was still better than any SS amp the store was selling - it was just the unfortunate match against the Meishu (granted a lot more money back then).

2a3 usually comes with 3.5 watts per channel. What I would do is if you really want it, buy it but be prepared that if it doesn't work out to use it in a second system with HE speakers. There are a lot more HE speakers out there today and so you may find one you like - the trouble is the HE/Horn speakers I tend to like cost more than a new Honda CRV.

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 19, 2020 at 02:50:24
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 The moderator realised the importance of the non political topic of wearing a mask against Covid attack. Very good. It is a very important topic even in the Amp forum. All forums should have a mention of the mask.

Bill

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 19, 2020 at 07:15:30
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2081
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 16, 2002
 I read all of that a while back. I'd still like to do my own comparison (not that I'm in any way unhappy with my current situation).

 

Thank you, posted on November 19, 2020 at 07:25:13
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 My listening room is about 12x13 with a high ceiling. I sit about 9-10 feet back against a wall, covered with a Navajo weaving blanket.

I should clear up one thing. My average listening level IS lower than 55db. I prefer to have the more aggressive passages average out on a top end of around 55db. Obviously that's a ball park area of listening.

Like I've mentioned, I have tried HE speakers. It's a taste thing, but I just didn't care for the presentation of horns, ribbons, Fostex type FR cones, etc.... I've gravitated towards a two way monitor/stereo sub style setup.

I've dabbled in tubes for over 25 years. I seem to prefer the lower wattage tubes like the 6v6 and my all time favorite, the EL84.

If I can find a used Bottlehead then maybe I'll give it a try. It's always been on my audio bucket list to try one of those.

Thanks

Just a note: I already have three stereos that I am VERY happy with. So this isn't a situation where I'm looking for the ultimate system. It's more like I'm adding to the rotation lineup. One of my current tube amps is a VTA ST70 using KT66. I like it but it generates FAR too much heat. Living in Arizona where it's over 100 degrees for 7 months of the year - IS a problem. I am considering selling that amp ONLY because of the heat issue.

 

RE: SETs have several advantages, posted on November 19, 2020 at 08:13:23
CG
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: October 11, 2000
 I've read where experts on the human auditory system - obviously, not me! - say that our hearing also has a kind of quadratic non-linearity in its response.

That suggests that SETs behave somewhat like our hearing system with regard to distortion as sounds get louder.

That further suggests that SETs perform a kind of trick on us. When the output gets louder, they fool our ears and brain into thinking the sound is louder than it is. That *might* explain why SETs get described as being less fatiguing to listen to.

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 19, 2020 at 08:14:33
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Sorry. Masks have been a tired topic everywhere for months. There absolutely no reason to revisit or bring them up on an audio forum.

 

Well it's 'objectively' true that SET distorts, posted on November 19, 2020 at 08:31:22
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 Yes, time & again I suppose I've sounded like "distortion is always bad", but my attitude too has soften over the years. I now readily concede that people are entitled to like the SET sound if that pleases them ... which, of course, doesn't diminish the fact that SETs add delicious 2nd order distortion.

I must admit that I enjoy my Schiit Freya + in 'Tube' mode some of the time. In the first place it somewhat removes the rough edges from certain recordings, and also the roughness of my Class D Audio SDS-258 amp, (which I'm currently forced to use as backup since my Purifi amp is back to the maker on account of a weird malfunction).

But secondly the tube just sounds good with some music. I used 'Tube' mode most of the time for jazz and most popular forms, (did someone mention Loreena McKennitt?). OTOH with classical music I generally prefer 'Passive' mode because it preserves greater transparency.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: SETs have several advantages, posted on November 19, 2020 at 08:33:56
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4778
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 That further suggests that SETs perform a kind of trick on us. When the output gets louder, they fool our ears and brain into thinking the sound is louder than it is. That *might* explain why SETs get described as being less fatiguing to listen to.

That's the 'dynamic' bit I mentioned earlier. Its caused by the higher ordered harmonics showing up on transients where power is needed. The ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure- so as a result you get 'dynamics'. I'm convinced that about 90% of audiophile use of the word 'dynamics' can safely be replaced by the word 'distortion' without changing in the meaning of the conversation.

 

RE: SETs have several advantages, posted on November 19, 2020 at 08:38:46
CG
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: October 11, 2000
 "I'm convinced that about 90% of audiophile use of the word 'dynamics' can safely be replaced by the word 'distortion' without changing in the meaning of the conversation."

Ain't that the truth!

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 19, 2020 at 09:01:25
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "I have with a tube maniac driving a well known Horn speaker. I love it and can listen for ever. It was a 20 watts per channel amp."

Was this a SET amp?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Well it's 'objectively' true that SET distorts, posted on November 19, 2020 at 09:31:29
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 If the Schiit Freya + is properly designed there is not going to be any audible distortion as a tubed buffer preamp. In SS mode there will be. Tubes are the most linear (distortion free) devices ever made. I'm talking about the device not the circuit as a whole. You can design a SS circuit and place a lot of feedback around it and get low THD numbers but feedback causes higher orders of distortion to be generated that were not there to start with and higher orders of harmonic distortion sound bad even when they are at very low percentages.

It's the lack of upper ordered harmonic distortion and makes a tube circuit sound good vs. SS, not the presents of harmonic distortion.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Rick W and Mick wolf are the ones making it all political, posted on November 19, 2020 at 10:50:02
Uncle Mike
 Why haven't their posts been deleted?????

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 19, 2020 at 10:52:56
Uncle Mike
 I don't know about that. I have both Altec and JBL speakers that reach that specification and both a Citation II and an LK150 sound wonderful through them

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 19, 2020 at 12:48:15
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Where did I go wrong?
YOU choose higher power. You may have a large room, for example. Or like it louder than I.
But with such high sensitivity speakers? You have the OPTION of using much less power than people like me with panels or others with very low sensitivity speakers.

No rules says......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 19, 2020 at 15:24:38
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Not all SETs sound the same, different tubes etc. One generally doesn't pick the power, they pick the tube. They go for the sound, that's the priority for them.
Jack

 

Reading comprehension problems? nt, posted on November 19, 2020 at 16:31:26
Rick W
 nt

 

Negative feedback and higher order distortion, posted on November 19, 2020 at 17:47:03
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 I don't doubt the higher order harmonic distortion is unpleasant to listen to. This is been know for a long time.

Some designers, e.g. Nelson Pass, insist the negative feedback is bad because it causes high order HD. As I understand this is also conceded.

However were a little feedback is bad, a lot of feedback decreases ALL orders of distortion including high order as well as low order are decreased. This is the position of designers such as Bruno Putzey.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 19, 2020 at 19:16:35
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Mick, it should be brought up everywhere because people do not take it seriously enough. Perhaps it was not needed here in this Amp Forum which is the most responsible of Forums. But we are under a violent attack of Pandemic.

Bill

 

RE: Well it's 'objectively' true that SET distorts, posted on November 19, 2020 at 21:35:56
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Nothing against Schitt - it sounds okay but there is a world of of difference between what Schitt does and what I am talking about. Distortion with SET amps is linear - rises with volume. So with an insufficient speaker they will distort. With an efficient speaker they do not. While they may sound better when they distort than SS when SS distorts I would rather not run either of them into distortion.

In either case - my view has changed over the years because we live in a world where we don't have to live with one thing.

You are an example. You want to listen to a tube amp for Loreena McKennett or a small scale lounge act great if you want to buy a 500 watt SS amp for Beethoven's 5th hey you can buy that too.

My case has generally been that if you buy a top end HE speaker and a really good quality SET - you will be able to play both of these kinds of music.

With SS and LE systems it is my view that no matter the expense none of them have captured that beauty in the small scale music - the individual instruments and one singer at a piano kind of stuff.

Thus Eva Cassidy with a guitar on the best SET based systems moves me. Listening to that on any of the $100k SS systems usually sounds lifeless.

Big music they do well - Guns and Roses at 105dB will blow you into next week - seems like the band is in the room belting away - Mahler is Mahvelous. Put a SET amp on LE speaker and Mahler will be Meh.

 

RE: Have you heard one in a good setup?, posted on November 19, 2020 at 21:39:53
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 I am not sure but it was most likely not a SET amp. He told me he was planning to build a SET. I have not met him since because of the Covid. I think he is working on a smaller version of his Horn speaker.

Bill

 

RE: Well it's 'objectively' true that SET distorts, posted on November 20, 2020 at 06:33:17
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Don't you have a full Pass setup? I'm curious to hear how you compare your class D and the Schiit to it. I mean in long term musical quality listening.

I listen to mainly classical. So I prefer clarity with a mix of musicality. I'm finding the best blend of the two has come from the humble EL84 tube. A real mix of accuracy and musical flavor. A clarinet sounds like a clarinet. Not a really good recording of a clarinet.

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 20, 2020 at 07:06:09
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Bill, fully understand and it appears most if not all are complying to mask mandates. That said, all the information in regard masks, distancing, hand washing, etc. is out there ad nauseam without bringing it to the peace and quiet of an audio forum.

 

Loreena McKennett !! ?, posted on November 20, 2020 at 08:51:23
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 I've learned to detest that womans Muzak. And Muzak it is.
Initially thought it interesting but each succeeding album was/is only a variation on the same damned sound.. ad nauseum. RIP.

 

I don't know what to say to tube users, but, posted on November 20, 2020 at 10:28:53
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 But if you like tube sound I doubt you will like a Purifi class D amp -- unless perhaps if you have a tube preamp upstream.

The Purifi is super resolving and dynamic but very analytical; highs might sound bright and this is definitely going to be true with recordings that are overly bright in the first place. It cuts no slack for less that not-so-good recordings.



Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: I don't know what to say to tube users, but, posted on November 20, 2020 at 17:16:03
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I'm not a strict tube guy. My other favorite amp is a fully restored vintage SS Marantz 250M. I use a Pass B1 buffer as a directly off my source.

I'm in the camp that if it sounds good, then it's good enough for me!

 

RE: Thank you, posted on November 20, 2020 at 20:34:02
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I that case you can drive virtually any speaker on the planet with a SET amp because the levels are so low the amp will never work hard. So you don't need to worry about the speaker is 84dB or 110dB sensitive.

The EL84 is a spectacularly good tube IMO and I have not run into one that I didn't like. I own two EL84 based amp - a PP class A (KingKo) and a SEP(OTO SE).

I think the only thing you need to look for is a speaker that performs well at low volumes. Some of those speakers where the reviewer says "it comes alive when you turn it up" is code-word for "this sucks at low volumes."

The Quad ESL 57 sounded great with the OTO which is 10 watts but only 4.2 watts per channel without distortion. Basically on par with a 2a3 amp.

You could also consider a tube pre and SS or Class D power amp because tube preamps don't really get hot with their small signal tubes and then the Class D or A/B can run quite cool. An Audio Note M One that I am currently reviewing or a Shindo Aurieges - second hand they might not be too egregiously priced and SS power can be had used for peanuts.

The advantage if money is concerned is that if you buy the mainstream brands second hand and you sell them you will get most if not all of your money back. With DIY or smaller brands, you may have a bit more trouble so while the price may be lower it may cost more if you can't sell it.

One other disadvantage with SETs of lower power is that I suspect they will be harder to move. There are fewer buyers for the really low powered amps because there are fewer people with speakers than can be driven off of 3-watt amps. So you have to really know for sure you like the sound.

I think if you like EL84 you will like 2a3 though. But my OTO sounds more like a stereotypical tube amp than my Empress amps. Oto is "warmer" and "veiled" in comparison. SO with Bottlehead, I believe there is a forum and you can ask a lot of questions as to how it sounds.


 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 21, 2020 at 20:43:49
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 So, how do you plan to do your own comparison? I think you made a drastic mistake not taking advantage of the beta test that was offered to you. Of course, you can always order a pair of M1200's and then return them before the 30-day trial period expires. I don't like to do that, though.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 22, 2020 at 13:00:15
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The word is OUT. I suspect everyone who CAN be convinced to do the right thing is ALREADY doing so. And those who choose not to? Possible 'infectees'......Might be the same folks who go to bars and stay to all hours.....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Rick W and Mick wolf are the ones making it all political, posted on November 23, 2020 at 15:37:46
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Why hasn't your post been deleted for lack of comprehension. My comments have nothing to do with politics. It's quite the opposite in fact. When I come to an audio forum, political BS is the last thing I want to see.

 

RE: Why there is any mention of masks on the Amp/Preamp forum is beyond me. Isn't one Central enough? nt, posted on November 23, 2020 at 16:03:35
rivervalley817
 well, I haven't said anything until now

usually that gets threads plonked

but you and Mick just better mind your P's & Q's gosh darned it!

oh, fun fact ... that term is from the old English pubs

'look after your pints and quids'

back in the day guys like Uncle Mike would slip around, steal your drink, pick up your change, then get your date drunk and try and take her home, all on your dime! ... or quid ... whatever.

JUST KIDDING MIKE!

*jeez, you guys*

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 25, 2020 at 06:17:29
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8385
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Art Dudley (RIP) was well aware of the intricacies of the distortions as revealed by his column Listening in the Stereophile issue of Feb 2015. Wish he were here.

Bill

 

is it the 2nd order distortion or loudness correction? , posted on November 27, 2020 at 20:12:47
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 or high output impedance, which results in a frequency response shift?

(presumably this choice could be simulated by a clean amp and quality DSP)

I suspect that a common problem in domestic environments at acceptable SPL is insufficient loudness correction. The high output impedance combined with common physics of speakers & low frequency drivers results in an response that simulates the loudness curve to some approximation.

Explaining one aspect of the perception that "tube watts are bigger than solid state watts". Namely they can give higher SPL at low frequencies (without significant power dissipation problems) because of the interaction with impedance curves, which is a loudness correction and hence makes it seem equivalently loud tonally vs a flat amp which would need to have overall volume turned up.

The other aspect is of course the lack of crossover distortion at small signal amplitudes resulting in good sounding high frequencies, with benign nonlinearites.

By the way, I use a preamp/processor (Anthem MRX) which has Dolby Volume which can apply a very good loudness correction in DSP, and it's a very clear win and makes everything sound 'more natural'.

 

RE: Why do audiophiles...., posted on November 30, 2020 at 18:51:42
tye2277
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: August 12, 2020
 I'll share my experience on the topic. I started with affordable solid state gear and moved up the line to higher (better, whatever that means) powered solid state. Then I jumped to tube gear and did the same. Then up next was to try SET (45s,El84s,2a3). In all cases, they each had good and bad qualities. In my main system now, while I prefer tube amplifiers, I ended up with a solid state as that seemed to be the right tool for the job. My 2a3 is being used in my office setup. Long story short, at some point, I've found that all of the gear has a flavor and choosing the one that is interesting to use, whether it be short or long term interests. And as for my SET, I've got it hooked up to the SF Venere 1.5s and have easily used other speakers that "shouldn't work", so I don't feel severely constrained. Of course, this system doesn't have the deepest bass, the highest highs, doesn't go extremely loud although more than loud enough for my listening, but the midrange is why I've kept the SET around. Sometimes you'll have to try and see if you like it.

 

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