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Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor

73.236.15.243
Posted on October 29, 2020 at 19:18:52
immatthewj
 switch on a preamp?

And should it make a difference for normal listening to a source, such as a CD player?

I cannot seem to get my head around the explanation in my owners manual.

I've been meaning to ask this for quite some time, but I keep forgetting. A friend of mine, who has basically the same preamp (his is a SLP 94) sent me a picture & his switch is in "monitor".

I discovered that with mine, in "monitor" it doesn't play as loud (which I like) but there is also a noticeable hum; ergo, I've been running it in the "tape" position. I did call Cary up back in '17 after I got it out of mothballs, & that was back when someone there would actually speak with me on the phone, but he didn't really give me any kind of good answer to my question, & I had a few other things on my mind that kept me from following up.

 

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RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:17:24
SgreenP@MSN.com
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Joined: April 23, 2007
 Its a connection that bypasses any tone control, or volume control that is for recording. If you have a tape deck you can listen to the tape plugged into the preamp via the tape monitor, or with the switch out you're listening to the sound from the source....CD player, turntable, fm tuner, etc. whatever you select.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:25:11
immatthewj
 "Its a connection that bypasses any tone control, that is for recording. If you have a tape deck you can listen to the tape plugged into the preamp via the tape monitor, or with the switch out you're listening to the sound from the source....CD player, turntable, fm tuner, etc. whatever you select."

Thanks. For some reason this is giving me a mental block.
I am not sure what you mean about listening to the tape plugged into the preamp via the tape monitor.

By "with the switch out", do you mean in the 'monitor' position? Is there a reason that it would not play as loud in the 'monitor' position & have a bit of a hum?

Thanks.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:32:08
hahax@verizon.net
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 If you are recording and you have tape output into the monitor input you can either listen to the source or to the tape just after it's been recorded. In the normal setting you are listening to the music being recorded. In the monitor setting you are listening to the tape you are recording. It allows you to check how good the recording you are making is.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:39:31
immatthewj
 "In the normal setting you are listening to the music being recorded. In the monitor setting you are listening to the tape you are recording. It allows you to check how good the recording you are making is."

Okay, thanks.
So when the tape/monitor switch is in the 'tape' position, that would be normal?
Theoretically, should it make a difference which position the switch is in if I am just listening to a CD? (Which is really all I ever do.)

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:41:23
SgreenP@MSN.com
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 In other words with the switch in you're listening to the output of the tape deck (if you have one), otherwise you're listen to your selected input. This ables you to prevent overloading and distorting whatever you are taping. For this you need a tape deck that can feed the output of the deck to your preamp.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:44:02
rivervalley817
 Monitor = so that you can hear what you're recording

tape out = pre-amp > recorder & tape in = recorder to amplifier

usually there's an unmodified pre-amp signal always present at 'tape out' so it's before any volume or tone, balance, EQ controls ... it's what your amp 'sees'

monitor does what it says, monitors that circuit

if you kick up the recording device input volume [which is ON THAT DEVICE] so goes the tape in volume

if your amp is hooked up from only tape out you'll introduce a open loop to the common signal ground in the amps output circuit that can act as a F'd up antenna ... all the 'output jacks' are carrying signal and will put signal 'up in the air' if there's no where for it to go ... but there is, the 'open' input 'jacks' or unshielded cables that are mm / inches apart

your amp should always be run off 'main out' or 'amp out' etc.

you can tap a signal off of tape out for 'chaining' to other devices like sub-woofers etc. and that completes the circuit [to common ground] so, no hum ... all of the above refers to 'signal ground' not high voltage

does that make any sense?



 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 20:58:59
immatthewj
 Um, no fault of yours, but I am still not getting my head around this.

"Monitor = so that you can hear what you're recording"
Okay, so I am not recording; that means I would have no reason to put the switch in monitor?

"usually there's an unmodified pre-amp signal always present at 'tape out' so it's before any volume or tone, balance, EQ controls ... it's what your amp 'sees'"
That would explain why it plays louder with the switch in 'tape', & also the hum I hear through the speakers with the switch in 'monitor'?

"if your amp is hooked up from only tape out you'll introduce a open loop to the common signal ground in the amps output circuit that can act as a F'd up antenna ... all the 'output jacks' are carrying signal and will put signal 'up in the air' if there's no where for it to go ... but there is, the 'open' input 'jacks' or unshielded cables that are mm / inches apart

your amp should always be run off 'main out' or 'amp out' etc."

So now you are losing me.
You are not talking about the outputs on the back of my preamp, are you?
In the para above that I quoted, it is sounding like you are saying that I should NOT be running my preamp with the tape/monitor switch in 'tape'?

Okay, so I just reread that, & now I am thinking you are referring to my outputs on the back of the preamp.
I have balanced outs going to my amp
& a set of RCA outs going to my sub
& one more set of RCA outs that are being unused.
Is this presenting a problem?

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 21:01:44
immatthewj
 "In other words with the switch in you're listening to the output of the tape deck (if you have one), otherwise you're listen to your selected input. This ables you to prevent overloading and distorting whatever you are taping. For this you need a tape deck that can feed the output of the deck to your preamp."

Thanks.
Okay, so my tape/monitor switch is not a push button; it is an up or down switch (I know that this doesn't make any difference), but, with "the switch in", do you mean in the 'monitor' position?

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 29, 2020 at 21:11:12
immatthewj
 "if your amp is hooked up from only tape out you'll introduce a open loop to the common signal ground in the amps output circuit that can act as a F'd up antenna"

Okay, but I get the hum when my tape/monitor selector is in 'monitor'.

?

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 04:31:18
BCR
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 The tape monitor switch should be in the off position. If you don't have a tape deck and not recording anything why are you worrying about it? Most new preamps don't include a tape monitor switch anymore!

 

Additional info, posted on October 30, 2020 at 05:17:47
mlsstl
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 It might help clarify things to understand that many higher quality open reel recorders (and a very few cassette decks like the Nakamichi 700 and 1000) had three heads contacting the tape.

The first was an erase head that cleared off any existing signal on the tape. The second was a recording head that put the signal being recorded on the tape. The third was a playback head that picked up the signal for playing tapes. That would be especially important for recording live events as you may not be able to get everyone back together (or at great cost and time) if you discovered a bad tape after-the-fact.

When recording, it was desirable to have an instant playback of what was being recorded. This allowed you to see if there were any problems (bad tape with dropouts, etc.) so they could be fixed while everything was still set up for recording.

The tape monitor loop on the amp allowed you instantly switch back and forth between the original signal being recorded and what was heard from the tape itself, so you could A/B the process.

If you have a hum from the tape monitor, there is a problem somewhere in your chain, whether the source device, a bad cable, or a problem within the amp's tape monitor circuit.

 

RE: Additional info and, posted on October 30, 2020 at 05:37:17
Story
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 I'm not sure why the 'Loop' in recording lingo would exhibit any hum unless there is a bad or broken ground connection inside somewhere or there is something wrong with the ground on the component that's in the loop.

If you have a component in the loop, try lifting the grounding plug at the wall, or if it's a 2 prong try reversing the plug.

Sometimes the RCA's should only have a grounded connection only on the sending unit with no ground on the other end. The variations can be a frustrating mess, so try one at a time.



 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 06:00:13
Dave Pogue
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 You might get more information in the "Tape Trail" forum. Worth a shot, at least.

 

That's the real story -nt, posted on October 30, 2020 at 07:24:15
E-Stat
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RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 07:51:08
The Dill
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 "If you are recording and you have tape output into the monitor input you can either listen to the source or to the tape just after it's been recorded. In the normal setting you are listening to the music being recorded. In the monitor setting you are listening to the tape you are recording. It allows you to check how good the recording you are making is."

- That is correct, however one needs to have a (3) head deck for that to be possible.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 09:05:37
SgreenP@MSN.com
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 its not a problem. If you have a tape deck with 3 heads (erase, recording, playback) then you can tell if the tape broke, is over recorded, etc. by using the monitor because you are hearing what's coming off the tape, just as you record it. I suspect you don't tape. ..then Don't use the monitor circuit at all.

 

Both hahax@verizon.net and The Dill are correct..., posted on October 30, 2020 at 09:24:54
John Elison
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 The tape monitor switch has two positions, tape and source. If your tape recorder has separate heads for recording and playback, you can use the tape monitor to switch back-and-forth between the source and the tape as you're making a recording. This allows you to make an A/B comparison between the source and the tape to determine how accurate your tape recorder is.

For example, suppose you're recording a CD. The CD would be the source. If you can't hear any difference between the CD (source) and the tape, your tape recorder is doing a perfect job. However, sometimes you will hear the cymbals drop in volume when switching to tape. This means your tape recorder is rolling off the high frequencies. Or, perhaps the bass frequencies sound weaker on the tape compared to the CD. This means the tape recorder is not making an accurate recording. If your tape recorder has adjustments for bias and equalization, you can adjust it for a more accurate recording and the tape monitor switch allows you to hear the difference.

If you simply want to play a CD, the tape monitor switch should always be left in the source position. This means that you are hearing whatever source the input selector switch is set to. If the input selector switch has a tape position, you can listen to your tapes without switching the tape monitor to tape. In other words, the tape monitor switch should always be in the "source" position for everything except when you want to A/B the tape and source when making a recording. However, this only works with a three-head tape recorder, which has separate heads for erasing, recording and playback. Unfortunately, many tape recorders have only two heads, one for erasing and one for recording and playback combined. For this type of tape recorder, the tape monitor switch is basically meaningless and should always be left in "source".

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 09:25:30
Jonesy
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 Yes, the toggle switch should be in the "tape" position.

That means that whatever component you have selected on your input control knob on the front of your preamp will send a signal to your main and record outputs on the back.

If you switch the toggle to monitor, you should hear whatever component is plugged into the monitor jacks in the back by default.

In "monitor", it should really be dead silent if you have nothing in the record and monitor jacks. Very strange.

Do you have your subwoofer looped in there somehow?

Cheers!

Jonesy








"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

Explanations too complicated!, posted on October 30, 2020 at 09:42:23
jedrider
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 Typically, Tape/Monitor is just the selected input ALSO transferred to the Tape Out/Monitor RCAs on the rear of the unit. It is typically used for tape recorders BUT is very useful to feed other input devices like, for instance, a dedicated headphone amplifier.

Very typically, it is just a direct connection from input to tape out, but it can be unity buffered I suppose (but not likely IME).

Oh, I forgot, it also plays back whatever is connected to your Tape In, as if you have another input option. For headphone listening, this can be left unconnected, if you're not actually using a recording device.

It use to be that preamplifiers typically had two selector switches but then tape recording went out of style and manufacturers aimed to simplify and just dropped that option.

Edit [Monitor is another term for Tape In]. Newer equipment probably says Tape In, i.e. we lost some old vocabulary there.

 

RE: Additional info, posted on October 30, 2020 at 10:27:33
rivervalley817
 excellent synopsis ... just energizing the monitor circuit without a return to 'signal ground' can introduce hum if there's a 'rats nest' of cables with inadequate shielding behind the pre-amp ... or even within the unit if there's a strong enough source of EMI/RFI nearby and it's made with an unshielded plastic case ... RCA termination plugs can be helpful when all else fails trouble shooting hum ... they've certainly helped me a few times so I keep a stash at hand

regards,

 

RE: Additional info and, posted on October 30, 2020 at 11:01:06
rivervalley817
 yes, that too. bad cables & configuration are usually where to look first

I had a friend that had his gear set up pretty close to a electric 'point of use on demand' water heater [that I assumed was gas heat] and we were going nuts trying to figure out how / where RFI was intermittently getting picked up by his gear ... the first thing I was looking for was fluorescent lighting or a ceiling fan, that's what it sounded like, then it dawned on me that his water heater might be electric with coils and where there's coils wrapped around pipes there's RF potential, his unit also featured 'ultrasonic' water treatment [didn't know that at first] ... long story short we unplugged it and the hum stopped ... put copper tape inside the face of the heater and added RCA shorting plugs to the unused pre-amp taps and that stopped it

that took about an hour to figure out and a few more for the fix but you'd think a mfg. would try and account for such things

with regards,

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 13:29:03
immatthewj
 Got it.
Thanks!
I have been listening with the selector toggle switch in the 'tape' position & that's the way I will continue listen.
I won't worry about what is going on when the switch is toggled to the 'monitor' position, because it is not like I am going to be making tapes anyway.

As far as my sub goes, when I bought this second hand preamp a long time ago, it only had one operational set of balanced OUTS & one operational set of RCA INs; I sent it to Cary & (among other things) had them give me a balanced set of INs (therefore sacrificing ever having a phono stage) AND two sets of RCA outs. (One I use for subwoofer & the other I wanted so that if I needed to, I could run an amp that did not have balanced INs. (And it just so happens that my spare amp does not have balanced INs.)

I wonder if Cary did something wrong when they added those RCA OUTs to the preamp?

Oh well, after reading this, I am not going to worry about it any longer & I am just going to keep it toggled to 'tape'.

Thanks again!

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 13:56:33
Jonesy
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 Ah, makes sense now that your unit us customized. They definitely would have had to repurpose some of the existing circuitry and input/output jacks.

So the back of your preamp is probably quite unique looking.

Did they go to the extent of relabelling all the jacks on the back?

Cheers!

Jonesy






"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 14:19:22
immatthewj
 Haha! I am glad you asked! I truly love relating the story of my preamp.

I was told that it had been "hot-rodded" by Dennis Had himself. The single set of balanced outs & single set of RCA ins that I told you about, AND the L & R balance pots had been defeated. But, when I tried it out, it sounded way more musical than the B&K audio-video digital preamp that I was running my (at the time) ARCs with, & I thought that the price was right, so I bought it from the dealer & called Cary & asked Kirk Owens if he could restore it to what my idea of "normal" was (PLUS give me one set of truly balanced INs, PLUS, besides restoring the original RCA OUTs, an extra set for subwoofer operation).

The answer was "Yes & yes & yes; if you've got the money, honey, we've got the time."

I am basically clueless when it comes to circuitry, but I guess what they did was turned (if would have ever been operational) the 12AX7 phonostage into a 12AU7 balanced input circuit that I now use for CD.

Way more than you asked, I know, but I just love to tell the misguided story of my preamp. Anyway, the back of preamp doesn't look all that abnormal. The balanced OUTs that it came with had actually been installed on the top corner of the preamp (with a hole cut in the tube cage that I never use) & they made the balanced INs look fairly sanitary on the back of it, & yes, they did label all of the other RCA INs that they restored (meaning that when I got it back from Cary it did have RCA ins for tuner, tape and aux) & they also labeled the two pairs of operational RCA OUTs that it came back with.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 14:36:01
Jonesy
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 That's definitely a "one of a kind" Cary preamp! "Monitor" and "Tape Out" jacks likely no longer exist!

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 14:49:00
immatthewj
I pretty much have tunnel vision so I am afraid that I never see what I am not looking for & I am also pretty dense. So I just took a look in back of it with an inspection mirror, & it actually does have both the "Monitor" and "Tape Out" jacks, & no, I have nothing plugged into either.

To reiterate, I am only utilizing the balanced INs for CD & one set of RCA OUTs for subwoofer.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 15:18:12
immatthewj
 (Now that I looked at those two sets of jacks back there the previous posts I received are making sense.)

(No one has ever hired me for my brains.)

 

It's the same as what is today generally called a "processor loop" right?, posted on October 30, 2020 at 16:02:53
JoshT
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Posts: 6622
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 It lets you send a signal to a tape recorder or an equalizer from the "output" jacks (without sending that signal to the power amplifier) and then receive the signal back from the recorder or equalizer through the input jacks, which are then are sent to the amplifer.

So with an equalizer, it lets you output the signal to the equalizer and then input the equalized signal for playback. With a tape deck, it lets you listen to the recording itself rather than the signal going into the recorder.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 30, 2020 at 16:51:56
Jonesy
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 You're good to go!


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Explanations too complicated!, posted on October 30, 2020 at 18:23:16
immatthewj
 I just re-read your post. Thanks. Starting to make sense now.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 31, 2020 at 07:11:59
cawson@onetel.com
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 There's a hint to its use by its name. It "monitors" the output from a tape recorder that is equipped with separate recording and playback heads. These tended to be pro and semi-pro models.

Whilst actually recording on a tape recorder from the amp's Tape Output (which is not affected by the volume control), the Tape Monitor button can be engaged so you can listen to the actual recording a second or so after it was recorded. You are monitoring your recording.

The clever thing is that the Source selected by the amp (tuner, CDP, etc)is not upset by engaging this monitor button. You can use the TM button to switch between what the recorder is receiving and compared with how it will play back its recording.

This is helpful in setting the tape recorder's recording level as distortion will be heard if set too high and hiss will be greater if set too low.

This tape monitor feature is long since absent from modern amps as tape recorders are generally no longer in hi-fi systems as there are better ways of storing music than in analogue form on 1/4" magnetic tape.

Happy days the 1980s!

 

I think it's the same as REC Out - as on my Yamaha integrated, posted on October 31, 2020 at 09:59:24
AbeCollins
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 I haven't "taped" anything in 3 decades but my Yamaha integrated has a pair REC Out RCA jacks on the back that appear to be working like fixed line level outputs. I'm using them to drive my fun but completely unnecessary vacuum flourescent display (VFD) audio VU / spectrum meter.



 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 31, 2020 at 10:44:11
pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
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 right you are.
My 1970s Kenwood KA7100, sitting right over THERE (pointing) has an additional feature.
2 tape monitor circuits. And a 5 position rotary swithc.
A Monitor
B Monitor
SOURCE positoin for A->B tape decks
MONITOR position for A->B tape decks
And of course?
SOURCE, where the switch spent the majority of its time.
You can actually record from A->B while listening to another source......

So you can have 2 decks, both 3 head, hooked up AND while duping a tape, listen to the phono or tuner or another 'AUX' input......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: I think it's the same as REC Out - as on my Yamaha integrated, posted on October 31, 2020 at 11:17:40
cawson@onetel.com
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 No - Rec Out is merely a line level output unaffected by volume control.

You'd use that to supply the tape recorder with its input signal, but your Yamaha doesn't appear to offer a Tape Monitor. There's no way it can accept a feed from the recorder's playback head while simultaneously feeding a signal to its recoding head. It can't "monitor" the tape recorder's recording.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 31, 2020 at 11:52:50
oldmkvi
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 You can adjust and compare the recording level to be like the Source output level.

 

Is this not a tape-loop ? See diagram, posted on October 31, 2020 at 12:05:21
AbeCollins
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 If it's not a "tape-loop" I won't be devastated as I haven't used a tape deck in 30 years.





 

Actually, no, remarkably, posted on October 31, 2020 at 12:06:59
jedrider
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 Yes, an equalizer/processor through the Tape/Monitor seems a solid alternate use, but that's not how they are designed.

A Processor loop is typically a separation between the selector/preamplifier and the amplifier, exactly as if you had two components.

My integrated has both a Tape/Monitor and a Processor Loop. It gives me a lot of combinations to try, especially when mixed with a home theater setup. Almost makes up for the integrated not having a headphone amplifier built-in. Sometimes I worry about creating a feedback loop inadvertently, as so many components are interconnected in loops with each other, though, that hasn't happened yet.

So, basically, one option separates the selector from the preamplifier and the other option separates the amplifier from the preamplifier.

 

RE: Is this not a tape-loop ? See diagram, posted on October 31, 2020 at 13:49:29
cawson@onetel.com
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 Yep - a tape loop but not tape monitor.

Your diagram show the amp can provide a signal to the recorder and the recorder can provide a signal to the amp, but unless I'm mistaken, there's no Tape Monitor facility.

This normally requires a dedicated front-panel Tape Monitor switch whereby the signal that's going out to the recorder can almost instantly be compared with the actual recording picked up by the dedicated playback head a fraction of a second after the recording head has done its job.

An amp that has a tape monitor circuit has the same back panel sockets, but it has internal circuitry that can be accessed by the dedicated monitor stitch on the front panel.

 

Ah, that explains it. Thanks, posted on October 31, 2020 at 14:35:39
AbeCollins
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Ah, so it's not a tape monitor per se even though it has REC Out for a tape deck. There's no Tape Monitor switch on the amp.



 

RE: Ah, that explains it. Thanks, posted on October 31, 2020 at 16:07:07
cawson@onetel.com
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 No - simple - a monitor allows you to listen to the recording a fraction of a second after recording and to compare it in near real time with the original signal.

Only possible with a tape recorder with separate record and playback heads - most domestic machine had a single combined record / playback head.

You can't "monitor" the recording without these 2 heads and without a tape monitor circuit in the amp - initiated by a simple switch on the front panel.

Work it out carefully - you need an extra circuit that you amp hasn't got.

 

RE: Additional info, posted on October 31, 2020 at 19:54:43
immatthewj
 It's not a super horrible mess in back of where my pre now resides, but I just did order some RCA termination plugs just in case.

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on October 31, 2020 at 20:41:23
hahax@verizon.net
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 I assumed that but I shouldn't have. I should have stated it explicitly as you did. Thanks.

 

RE: Additional info, posted on October 31, 2020 at 21:58:35
rivervalley817
 smooth move!

my rig still picks up the WASP

Happy Halloween!

 

RE: Additional info, posted on November 5, 2020 at 10:08:30
immatthewj
 Thank you.
I just reread the owners manual . . . .

 

RE: Can someone explain the function of the tape/monitor, posted on November 27, 2020 at 23:44:26
pictureguy
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Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 You need to connect the idea of a 3-head tape deck where the RECORD head is just before PLAYBACK head in the tape path. Speed of the tape, from 1 7/8IPS to 15IPS determins the 'delay' time.

The 3rd head is the ERASE head. I have a slight variation of the above in the form of the CrossField Head used by Tandberg and others where the record BIAS function is applied by a 4th head, usually on the OPPOSITE side of the tape from the emulsion....

Some tape monitor functions ALSO will allow the copying of tapes from one deck to another while listening to 'the source' which can be any source and not interfere with the recording.

Autoreverse complicates the heck out of EVERYTHING>

My KENWOOD KA-7100 sitting over THERE (pointing) in the corner has just such a circuit.
Too much is never enough

 

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