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I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now.

67.49.57.195

Posted on September 21, 2020 at 06:12:58
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002



Just when I thought I was happy with my amp and speakers (Tannoy Autograph Mini's, Marantz PM-17)..

I listened to an amplifier today which completely swept me off my feet. I took my speakers along to a local dealer and spent two hours in a state of bliss.

There were three on my radar. I started with a $2k Line Magnetic tube integrated with EL34s which sounded good enough to leave me wanting for not much. Then I hooked-up a $2400 all Class A Sugden A21. Holy jellyfishfingers. I didn't know my speakers had it in them to do what I was hearing. Everything in the mix was projected to very specific places in the soundstage. So much front to back presence, as well as left to right, and plenty going-on outside of the speakers.

Stunning. Good thing they are efficient. The room was big and the amp is only 23 watts.

Then I tried the $3300 A21SE integrated (a titanic 30 watts, and improved pre-amp stage). Even more sonic glory. Greater air/space between the vocals and instruments. Piano sounded so full-bodied. Notes just flowed like slobber from Cujo's jaw, delivered with aplomb from the speakers like a summons from the hands of an end-of-shift courier.

Vocals had the intimacy of a bedtime time story being read to you by that blond babysitter your father was so enthusiastic about hiring when you were just old enough to reach for the milk in the fridge.

No going back to the regular A21 after that. I want my system to sound like this all the time.

Class A isn't offered by many amplifier manufacturers. They aren't cheap to make. They are not very efficient, running good and warm all the time. As much as anything, how tough it is to market to world full of enthusiasts who are largely convinced amplifier output needs to be at least 100 watts to have any credibility. The reality of it is, if your room isn't huge, and your speakers produce an efficiency of 88dbs from one watt, you don't need more than 12 watts to go very loud. Great-sounding efficient speakers are easy to find these days.

Sugden Class A amplifiers have impressed me in the past at audio shows, but I had never heard one in my system. Always wanted to, but finding a dealer in the US is like seeing a Fisker at a truck stop in a rectangular state.

This was such an enjoyable experience that I left the shop feeling like very effective therapy had taken place.

Now I just have to sort out buying the thing. Sugden offer 14 colors to pick from - unusual for an audio component, let alone one designed and built in the UK. The graphite model pictured is likely to be my rather unadventurous choice.

 

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RE: I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now., posted on September 21, 2020 at 09:27:42
Properly done Class A in my opinion is impossible to beat with any other SS topology. I can't imagine you will regret going with Class A.


I have recently been listening to my Musical Fidelity A1-2008 version. 30wpc Class A.

My 120 wpc QUAD 909 can't beat it.

My 25 wpc Transcendent Sound T8-LN OTL tube amp beats it, but not by all that much.

Speakers are Ref3A DeCapo I


 

I would go with black if it were I, posted on September 21, 2020 at 09:40:59
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
So, this amp sounds good right after power on?

I'm curious. My suspicion of class-A is that they only sound good if they have been warmed up for multiple hours. My tube amplifier needs about 30 minutes to sound it's best but after just five minutes is very tolerable.

 

RE: I would go with black if it were I, posted on September 21, 2020 at 09:51:40
My A1 heat sinks get really hot in about 15 minutes - too hot to leave my palm on for more than a few seconds.
And after a few hours I don't feel any significant increase in heatsink temp after that first 15 mins or so.

How much hotter would it get after 4 hours? Hard to believe much if any hotter...

 

RE: I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now., posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:06:45
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
I'm very pleased you're delighted with the Sugden amp.

I had a slightly different take on the Sugden Masterclass Series FPA-4 power amp (25 watt Class A) that I had in my system for a few weeks' home trial. Yes it was great, but nowhere near as good as the Accuphase A36 amp (30 watt Class A) that I went on to purchase.

Having said that, I kept the Accuphase for about a year, but eventually decided I preferred the sound of the M32 from NAD's Master Series (Class D) even more than the Accuphase. And it does a lot more of course - DAC, streamer module, etc.

Both the Sugden and Accuphase are up to good working temperature and optimum sound performance within 10 minutes or so and the Accuphase runs significantly cooler than the Sugden. I'll be changing the M32 for the new Purifi-based M33 as soon as it's available, as I hear it offers a further improvement in sound quality.


Both the Sugden and Accuphase are up to good working temperature within 10 minutes or so and the Accuphase runs significantly cooler than the Sugden.

 

My cautionary observations on Class A amplification...., posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:17:50
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
"As much as anything, how tough it is to market to world full of enthusiasts who are largely convinced amplifier output needs to be at least 100 watts to have any credibility. The reality of it is, if your room isn't huge, and your speakers produce an efficiency of 88dbs from one watt, you don't need more than 12 watts to go very loud. "

Respectfully, that is a gross generalization by those who justify low power Class A amplification...... with the usual "if your room isn't huge" and "if you don't go very loud" excuses.

In my experience even my 91dB Tannoys do in fact need well over 50-Watts to "come alive" with decent dynamics. Yes, they'll play "loud" with a mere 10-Watts but the dynamics are compressed and struggling. I'm talking about a small bedroom sized room at modest listening levels.

I've had a couple sub 50-Watt tube amps as well as Class A solid-state on my somewhat efficient 91dB Tannoys that didn't cut it. Don't even get me started on these wimp amps for my Thiels even though they're probably fine if you don't mind the transistor radio-like sound from audiophile speakers! ;-)

My Pass Labs Aleph 3: 30-WPC @8 Ohms, 60-WPC @4 Ohms

Nice enough amp but dynamically challenged on my 91dB Tannoys. I also had the newer Pass Aleph 30 with identical 30-WPC and dynamically struggling results. I owned the Cary Rocket-88 20wpc/triode and 40wpc/ultra-linear. Again, under powered for the 91dB Tannoy speakers in either mode.

I would caution that while you're probably listening to a better quality amp overall compared your existing Naim, you might also try a quality Class AB amp with more power to at least get a feel for dynamics before settling on low power Class A.

Class A is great if the power is sufficient but it often isn't. In those cases, you're much better off with a sufficiently powerful AB amp. Don't be lured into buying an under powered Class A amp then justifying it with excuses like "small room", "not playing it loud", etc.

A good AB amp will sound great, AND can be played with outstanding dynamics, dynamics which are lost in many Class A amps that are not quite powerful enough --- but "OK in a small room. And OK if you don't play it loud" ;-)



 

RE: My cautionary observations on Class A amplification...., posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:31:54
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2378
Joined: September 27, 2004
I think there's a lot of sense in what you say. The OP's speakers are described as "4" driver with 200 Watt peak power handling delivers incredible dynamics for the size of enclosure"

The implication is that you need a bit more than 25 watts for best performance. I've not seen the sensitivity but I fear those Minis are just 88dB.

I've used 25 and 30 watt Class A amps pretty successfully with my speakers but they are 104 and 107 dB, so no shortage of wattage from the Class A amps - or even 6 watt (PX-25) and 18 watt (845) from SETs. I wouldn't expect any of these to bring out the best from my feebly-insensitive Martin Logan 13As! Peter

 

More than just sensitivity..., posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:52:14
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
going on here.

My Joseph Audio 'Pulsar' stand mount' monitors are a mere 8adB 'efficient', if JA's Stereophile measurements are to be believed, and yet they are often exhibited at audio shows in HUGE suites and with mere tube amps of 60 Watts filling the room with sound.

Key might be easy load? impedance that doesn't drop below 6 Ohm and who know what else?

I wouldn't be afraid to try a 25 - 30 watt class 'A' amp on them either.

Will a class 'D' amp seem to 'control' a speaker better than a class 'A' amp. No doubt bet remember, as a friend who shall remain nameless once said, 'feedback steals the sole from the music'.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

At least in theory, a pure class A amp, once warmed up...., posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:54:17
......will be hottest without a signal present, as all of the heat is dissipated into the heat sinks, once you are playing music, part of the heat is dissipated as power into the load.

 

+1 ..... Bi-Amping will get you 'Over the Hump' .......nt, posted on September 21, 2020 at 13:34:43
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
May 16, 2021
nt



 

Like slobber from Cujo's jaw..., posted on September 21, 2020 at 13:57:59
MaxwellP
Audiophile

Posts: 1622
Location: New York
Joined: September 19, 2007
That one c will stay with me...whenever I listen to piano music.

 

+1 Imma use that line myownself some day! nt, posted on September 21, 2020 at 14:49:43
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

I got me a nice Class A right here on the AA Trader, posted on September 21, 2020 at 15:12:55
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10431
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
It was a few years ago, and I bought it when the seller had a hack 'fix' it and biased it WRONG and it sounded like shit. No wonder she sold it.

But I biased the Kinergetics correctly and cleaned it up nice. Got 75 wrms into 8 ohms, 150 into 4, and 300 into 2 - that's per channel tire smokin' voice coil burning watts, built in fan, and big ass heavy chassis.

Smooth, powerful, soft and lovely like a sinful delicious girlfriend. Any amp that's Class A with less power will still sound sinfully good.

I hope you buy one and enjoy it to a happy ending!!



 

RE: I would go with black if it were I, posted on September 21, 2020 at 17:28:21
My amp is the same way, Jed.

 

RE: I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now., posted on September 21, 2020 at 17:30:37
"Holy jellyfishfingers. I didn't know my speakers had it in them to do what I was hearing."

Might give some credence to getting it right up front, first?

 

Fair enough. The Minis are a really easy load., posted on September 21, 2020 at 17:45:33
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
I suppose I should have mentioned that. And not all 50 watt amplifiers have the same grip and grunt.

 

RE: Fair enough. The Minis are a really easy load., posted on September 21, 2020 at 18:24:35
My amp is switchable (in pairs of tubes) from triode (which Cary claims is 50 wpc class A) to pentode (which they claim is 100 wpc class AB). It has been a real long time since I have ran it in pentode.

 

RE: I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now., posted on September 21, 2020 at 19:47:39
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
There is a reason it is the longest or one of the longest selling amplifiers going - 53+ years now.

Welcome to world of class A.

 

RE: Fair enough. The Minis are a really easy load., posted on September 21, 2020 at 20:43:09
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
I'm not trying to discourage you. And of course I'm not saying that Class A is bad. BUT.... many Class A amps that are "affordable" are often lower power, and lower power may not be enough for your speakers. If that is the case, you're better off with a higher power quality AB amp. It's really hard to tell though unless you have a quality AB amp with more power to compare against.

In my case.... The 30-WPC Pass Aleph 3 didn't sound as good on my speakers as the 150-WPC Pass X-150.5 AB amp. The Aleph 3 was anemic and compressed sounding compared to the Pass 150-WPC AB amp. In this case the AB amp was the clear winner by a long shot.

Class A is only good if it is powerful enough to truly drive your speakers to real world listening levels w/o breaking a sweat.



 

RE: Fair enough. The Minis are a really easy load., posted on September 21, 2020 at 20:52:16
Abe, this is what ppopp had to say about the amp driving his speakers:

"Holy jellyfishfingers. I didn't know my speakers had it in them to do what I was hearing."

 

RE: I would go with black if it were I, posted on September 22, 2020 at 17:33:16
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
"I'm curious. My suspicion of class-A is that they only sound good if they have been warmed up for multiple hours"

Well transistors' characteristics do change with temperature. Look at any detailed spec sheet.

Hot as they may be, as log as they got air it will level off. More heat difference between them and the ambient means more effective cooling, that alone helps to regulate the temperature.

Fan cooling doesn't matter. If not fan cooled there is more convection as it heats up, and also that thermodynamic principles come into play. Even if fan cooled, the laws of physics are that the greater the temperature differential the more heat exchange there will be with all other things.

So ironically you might not want to put a a fan on a class A amp.

Remember the Technics class A, they had a warmup time.

 

RE: Fair enough. The Minis are a really easy load., posted on October 26, 2020 at 14:35:27
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




Being an avid mini-monitor lover since 1979, ranging from LS 3/5A's ( from various makes like Rogers | KEF | Harbeth ) which were driven with the original Sugden A21 upon my return from being stationed in Japan, along will about 4 variants on ProAc Tablettes | Linn Kan l's | ll's | Audio Physic Step SLE's | Reference 3A Dulcet's | DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3s | Fyne Audio F501's most on average were driven extremely well by the original Naim Nait ( all 12 watts per side ) as well as two different Nait 2 ( Olive ), as well as a 16 w|pc tube integrated amp with EL84's all within rooms which were 12' wide x 23' long, and in each case it was done with ease......., not only driving the listening space, but our entire home, where it could be heard for either bedroom located at the rear of said home.

One of the biggest surprises to me was hearing said Nait 2 ( 18-21 watts per channel ) driving a pair of the original Totem Model Ones in such a manner, i was taken back to all the chat back in 1989 - 1999, about them needing 100-200 watts to drive them, in my mind I tend to say BS to what's written | and would rather try said tandems for the sake of truth.

Like someone else here ( including you ) my current Nait 5SI offers a sense of grip | control of the mid-bass drivers which easily replaced my previous Coda Technology Unison 3 Ultra Edition ( 50 watts pure Class A | 135 watts Class A|B thereafter ) which was trying its best to mimic the signature of tubes........, yet never drove any of my 84-91db efficient mini's in quite the same way said Nait's did or does.

In the real world, it's about trusting what " you hear " as well as what moves you......., it's far to easy to fall into the mindset that power rules, not when it comes to balance | an added sense of enlightenment | correctness which speaks for itself.

I might be wrong?, but as I've told close friends since 2014, of late it's more | more about " Mi-Fi ", not my buddies | neighbors | peers | siblings | parents, but " Mi - Fi " and how it speaks gently to me that matters as growth kicks in, to be misled isn't an option, synergy counts, and once understood, there's no going backwards or laterally.

 

RE: I finally got to hear a Sugden integrated in my system. I'm in trouble now., posted on October 28, 2020 at 05:52:56
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
Oh.. I would think you need much more than 12 watts with 88dB speakers...

 

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