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Art Audio PX-25

107.132.122.6
Posted on June 26, 2020 at 03:59:24
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 As a long-time audiophiles (over 50 years), we've had a lot of nice gear come & go but recently took delivery of a special order Art Audio PX-25. Ordered with tube rectification, silver wiring, KR tubes, deleted attenuator control, a single 16 ohm speaker tap, yellow Hovland Musicaps, and a chrome chassis, it came to $12,500. We also currently have Audion Golden Dreams and were happy with them (fitted w/Psvane Acme 300Bs) but their 18w was overkill for our Avantgarde Duo Grossos. The PX-25 is without question the nicest amp we've ever owned. Whereas the G.Dreams highlighted the midrange & vocals at the expense of mid bass & treble, the PX25 highlights each & every note from top to bottom. Music now sounds complete, unforced, and right. The music is seductive; actually sounds pretty. There is a level of transparency and fullness that we have never experienced with any other tube. The improvement is not subtle, and the PX-25 surpasses the Audions and our prior Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature 300Bs, David Berning ZH230, Quicksilver 6C33C Triodes & V4s, Golden Tube EL34s, and a bevy of solid state amps.
The dealer, Verdant Audio in Greenwich Ct, was a pleasure to do business with and made suggestions that proved very beneficial. When our delivery was delayed due to shipping issues from England, Scott at Verdant even sent us several bottles of single malt scotch & aged bourbon in apology. How's that for customer service? Bravo.
-As a retired surgeon, I have no affiliation with Art Audio or Verdant Audio but I truly wish we'd have discovered this amp years ago. It is amazing.

 

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RE: Art Audio PX-25, posted on June 26, 2020 at 06:08:25
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I'm not surprised you love the Art Audio PX-25 with your Avantgarde Grossos. I used the same combination a few years ago but with AG Unos, although my amp was the stock version. At the time I was London unofficial dealer for Art Audio and also had Tom Willis's Carissa amp that uses 845 tubes. My speakers were "only" 100 dB so needed more power than your speakers. I found the PX-25 divine on lots of music but I needed a little more for the likes of full scale orchestral music. With this, the Carissa was better.

Since I sold the Unos last year, I've acquired Duos from about 2006 following a short unsuccessful venture into electrostatics (Martin Logan 13A) and now have new Duo XDs on order.

I'm sure that the PX-25 would be great for all music on these, but I made the decision 3 years ago to switch to SS. I've had a dozen or so amps of all types in my system but have settled (at least for the time being) on a digital amp - the Master Series M32 from NAD. I'm certainly listening to far more music since switching, but the new M33 looks even more interesting, at least on paper. I have other short-list SS amps, but I doubt I'll return to tubes.

I'm sure you'll find the PX-25 ideal and better than AN (I had a nasty 300B-based one for a short while), or just about any other tube amp. Tom's amps are beautifully designed and built to compliment their superb sound quality. Peter

 

Nice! Always wanted to hear that amp, posted on June 26, 2020 at 08:06:02
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10266
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 Mine are Art Audio Jota HC monoblocks.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: Art Audio PX-25, posted on June 26, 2020 at 08:09:20
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 Peter, I've never heard a SS amp that had the tone & nuance of tubes. It's like watching a movie in black & white, then (with tubes) turning up the color. We've owned McIntosh, Plinius, & Ampzillas, have auditioned many other transistor amps, and they all sounded flat & two dimensional in comparison, but understand that Nelson Pass's amps are better.
The thing about Art Audio is that Tom Willis's creations are such a secret. Art Audio's build quality is top notch, looks & styling are gorgeous, sound is phenomenal, and their price is reasonable; yet the buzz is all about Shindo, Audio Note, Conrad Johnson, Acoustic Research, etc; all priced similar (or higher) and to our ears, not as good. The PX25 tube is totally unknown to most and we've yet to hear a 300B that is as good. After being on the audio merry-go-round for most of our lives, these amps in conjunction with the Duo Grossos are keepers.

 

RE: Art Audio PX-25, posted on June 26, 2020 at 09:09:22
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Yes, the PX-25 is grossly under-rated and under-used in amplifiers. It's only really good for very high sensitivity speakers (as with 45 and 2A3), but I've not heard anything better.

I'm not sure I'd agree with your black & white vs colour comparison between SS and tubes though. If you really want to find a full Technicolor SS amp, you'll eventually find one, though it may be a long search and could tend towards grey if you change your speakers! Peter

 

RE: Art Audio PX-25, posted on June 26, 2020 at 09:34:02
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 Peter, we were planning on attending AXPONA 2020 when it was canceled; hoping to find an amp that we fortunately discovered, this PX-25. I don't think we could have found a better match for the Avantgarde Duos. Our most recent previously owned Magico M5s, are excellent speakers that require a lot of juice; but we never did find the right match for them with our system, in our room. It can be difficult, expensive, and repeatedly disappointing. We wish you the best in your search.

 

Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 26, 2020 at 12:46:43
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I found that technicolor sound in both a low powered EL84 Sherwood amp and a circa 1974 fully restored SS Marantz 250M amp. I understand your analogy but that magic is a funny thing. You never know when, where or how it's going to show up.

I to have horse traded amps for 30+ years. And with thousands of dollars still in my pocket, I wouldn't trade them out for anything. Funny how things work out.

BTW someone GAVE me the Sherwood. So my only expense was having it restored and new tubes. One caveat is I do not use the Sherwood S-5000 as an integrated amp. I only use the amp section. Ya gotta love this hobby.

 

RE: Art Audio PX-25, posted on June 26, 2020 at 13:48:34
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks but I'm very satisfied with my relatively inexpensive NAD M32 and I have plans to get its successor the M33. Also on my list is the Bakoon 13r that a Mezzo owner on another forum has found the best match after trying numerous hugely costly amps. In fact I have a Bakoon 13r here on loan right now, but I don't think it betters the M32. More critical listening required.

Another amp I'd love to try is the AGD Audion monos. What an odd design? I like its SET appearance but in fact it's Class D. It's only avilable direct but they are prepared to send to me in UK and return if not happy is penalty-free. However the import tax and duty might be a nightmare if I decided to return them.

My own speakers (Unos at the time) were used with Art Audio gear at an audio show at Heathrow in about 2005. Holger Fromme visited to help set them up, but those who visited both rooms reckoned our sound was appreciably nicer than the Avantgarde room with speakers powered by AG's solid state amps. I think Tom was using his favourite design, the Diavolo much of the time, but he had a number of other SET and PP amps.

I'm sure you find the AGs more entertaining than the Magicos. Peter



 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 26, 2020 at 16:18:57
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 Quite a few years ago right after we got out of school & didn't have much money, we bought an inexpensive Golden Tube Audio EL34 integrated, pair of Apogee Slant 6s, and a used Kinergetics CD player. Had extension cords with the ends cut off for speaker cable (aka zip cord)... and it sounded amazing. Had less than $2000 in the whole rig and it was magic. Later systems, way more expensive, with all seperates & real cables, didn't sound as good or have that same magic. In fact, a few years later we went to Don Better Audio in Cleveland, spent well over $40,000 for a full system and it sounded so bad. He wasn't able to assemble the pieces (amps, preamp, speakers, CD, cables) for us to hear as a system and we blindly wrote the check based solely on his opinion. Huge mistake. We learned the hard way about mismatched gear & system synergy.

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 27, 2020 at 04:52:26
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 That many mistakes in one session seems careless! We've probably all made mistakes, but best to do so one at a time.

I recently wanted to upgrade my ancient Avantgarde Uno horns and looked around for alternatives. Electrostatics seemed worth a look as a fiend locally has a very good Quad 2905-based system. I bought a pair of used Quads, knowing that they would be temporary as these "barn doors" would be in the middle of my room. Sounded good so I auditioned at a dealer Martin Logan 13A speakers. Look much better, but sounded poor in my particular room. Now for sale virtually unused at a huge reduction from new price. Lesson learned - don't buy anything until you've heard it in your own home - specially speakers.

Now back to Avantgardes, 2006-vintage Duos with Duo XDs on order

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 27, 2020 at 05:46:58
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 No; "careless" is incorrect (we cared dearly); but naive & trusting... more appropriate. We went to Don Better to buy a pair of Verity Sarastros and he demonstrated several amps & preamps that were really nice; but they were not all in the same system simultaneously and several items were a slightly different model. We ended up buying Ambience ribbon speakers over the Veritys, along with the rest of the system; Quicksilver 6C33C Triodes, Quicksilver pre, Wavelength Cosecant, Apple notebook, Nordost cables, etc). Individually it was all really good but together; not good at all. No bass; too bright, too sibilant, too thin. Six months later we sold every piece of gear except the DAC & speakers online at a $10,000+ loss. Back on the audio merry-go-round; and expensive lesson learned.
Enjoy those new Duo XDs, they're fabulous speakers (we prefer them over the Trios).

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 27, 2020 at 09:59:12
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 My words were tongue in cheek of course! We've both learnt the same lesson - try at home before you buy. Sorry to hear your difficulties. I've not heard of the speakers you mention, although I've found a review of the Verity Audio Sarastro II loudspeaker - surely not $40K?

Your electronics are tube based - I decided a couple of years ago to move away from tubes partly as I think they need to match other parts of the system even more so than ss and I didn't want valves heating my room for as many hours as I want to listen to music or radio. I hope you've made progress in getting your system sounding good.

The Duos seem to have been more frequently upgraded compared with Trios. I agree that Trios are probably not the best from AG. They have a fundamental flaw - the 3 horn tubes are not vertically aligned. I'm hoping the Duo XDs with their Omega drive units and 12" bass speakers will be a big step up from the old Duos, although the "house sound" of AG horns and their room suitability should be much the same. Peter

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 28, 2020 at 03:56:00
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 I recently learned of a way to wire the Duos that makes them even better (for the pre-Omega types). The speaker leads should be connected directly to the large mid horns, the jumper then goes from the mid horn to the bass unit, and finally the jumper from the bass terminals to the tweeter horns are connected with reverse polarity (ie. neg to pos, pos to neg). The reverse polarity to the tweets didn't make sense but made an audible improvement to already great speakers.
These speakers paired with the PX-25 really is something. One other note regarding Art Audio & Verdant; they have a 30 day in-home return policy if not satisfied. That's impressive.

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 28, 2020 at 05:10:27
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Now I heard a slightly different version of how best to connect Duos (and presumably Unos) to the main amp.

Main speaker cable goes to the mid-horn (as you suggest), then jump to tweeter (in phase), then jump from the spare tweeter terminals to the sub (out of phase). Thus the mid and top are in phase with each other but the sub is out of phase.

The test is to compare volume at the listening position of frequencies around the crossover. The phase setting with the louder volume should be used as this proves that the mid and bass drivers are all contributing to the volume you hear. If it is quieter, then the bass drivers are sucking while the mid unit is blowing at these XO frequencies.

Why out-of-phase is usually best with these old AGs is perhaps because the bass drivers get their signal after passing through 2 power amps, whereas the middle and top receive after only the main amp. "Speed of light" argument would say it would make no time delay whatsoever, but complex amp circuits may add a minute signal delay.

If you use the preamp output direct to the subs, you may find in phase is better as, in this arrangement, all drivers get their signal via a single power amp.

Do you have AGs and have you tried this phase test? Certainly with my present pre-Omega Duos, subs out of phase is preferred. Also I doubt that the Omega version would be any different in this respect. They use 18 ohm drivers but there's no reason to believe that this would speed up or slow down the arrival time of the signal to each driver. Peter

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 28, 2020 at 07:06:43
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 Peter, I just tried your suggestion and it indeed does sound better. There is additional upper bass to the point that I had to lower the volume of the bass drivers while the treble seems to have gained a bit of sparkle. We also use a stand alone powered sub made by Ambience (of Australia) connected in-phase directly to the Joule Electra LA-300ME preamp and with the connected out-of-phase Avantgarde subs the bass is fuller and more detailed. Stevie Ray Vaughn's Tin Pan Alley now literally shakes the walls. LOL. Thanks for the tip.

 

RE: Beauty is where you find it, posted on June 28, 2020 at 11:31:09
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2377
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I'm really pleased that this has worked for you. Whether you have the external sub in phase or out of phase with the AG sub is again determined by the simple volume at listening position test.

I have new Duo XDs on order. These seem to offer no opportunity to connect the sub section out of phase as the bass section and tweeter section share the same terminals. However this could still be achieved (as far as I can see) by using line level direct from preamp to the bass section. I'll learn more when they arrive. Peter

 

Let me add, posted on July 1, 2020 at 12:30:49
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6598
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 A little over 10 years ago I was encouraged to try a HE system based upon those of a couple of different friends. I found a nice pair of Cain & Cain BEN back loaded horn speakers and began auditioning a few different low powered (most SET) classic tube designs. Somehow I learned about the Art Audio PX-25 and found a very clean example. So far as I know it was completely stock.

I will say that was one of the most musical and satisfying systems I've owned over decades in this hobby. So why didn't I keep it? Along with the glorious midrange the bass began rolling off about 65 Hz. I expect bass down to 40 Hz or a little deeper and simply felt I was missing too much. Because of my room configuration I couldn't consider adding a sub. Otherwise I'd still own that system.

I've seen very little on the PX-25 since then so you are fortunate to find your source. With the modest upgrades it is likely better than mine. Enjoy.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: Let me add, posted on July 1, 2020 at 13:48:23
db2sub1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: October 25, 2008
 M3, Tom Willis has started making PX-25s again and for a mere $8500 through their new importer Verdant Audio in Greenwich, Ct.. I don't there's anything out there that comes close to the sound of this amp at anywhere near the price; including Shindo gear which we also like. We've owned other SETs, both were 300Bs much more expensive ($18,000 Audion, $28,000 Audio Note) and even after thousands more spent on tubes they still weren't close to sounding as good as this PX-25. It may be rated at only 5wpc but that's the biggest 5w I've ever heard and has deep room-shaking bass with our Avantgardes. However, I imagine speakers with efficiencies of 96db+ are needed.
BTW, we listened to a pair of Cain & Cain BENs at Don Better's when we bought the Ambience ribbons; they were very pleasant, put out way more sound than their small footprint & tiny driver suggested, and although a bit shy on both bottom & top; sounded super overall. Our room was just too big.

 

C&C tweeter, posted on July 1, 2020 at 18:19:39
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6598
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 I did have the upgraded Fostex tweeter on my Cain & Cains. That covered as much HF as my elderly ears could perceive. ;^)

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

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