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I have a Rega P3 with Cardas re-wire and a ceramic bearing. I'm running an AT 150 MLX and a Jasmine phono amp. I'm thinking to keep the arm and find a used table instead of spending $500 on a subplatter, white belt and speed control for the P3. How big an improvement would a Technics sp10 or sp15 be? What else in the $400 to $500 range would be a major improvement? I want to digitize my collection and only do it once and I think the P3 is the weak point.
I listen to everything but country and opera, mainly large and small classical works, lots of fusion, acid jazz and classic rock.
Follow Ups:
I have owned a SP-15 and now a Rega P25. I always foo foo'ed the Rega's. Then I decided to try one. And I like the sound of it better than the SP-15. I am not saying it's better but different and suites my tastes....
Thanks for everyone's comments. I got a Kenwood KD 500 on ebay today. Reading indicates the concensus is to damp the plinth a lot and use something soft between it and the shelf. If you have any favortie sites for Kenwoods please post them.
Edits: 11/12/11
Congrats on the new table! Hope it provides you with much happiness.
I don't know about the damping of the plinth since that is something I never tried while I had a KD-650. You could try damping the platter a bit though as it does ring. A Funk Firm Achromat was a big improvement over the stock rubber mat, but as far as rubber mats go, it ain't to bad. The Herbies mat would also be a great choice.
I personally replaced the stock feet with heavy brass footers from edenSound. Sitting on a maple slab that rested on rubber/cork/rubber footers the 'table was immune to any acoustic feedback, and I had it placed about a foot away from one speaker.
One thing I never tried though that you might consider, is replacing the chipboard bottom plate with MDF or thick plywood.
Have fun and enjoy!
As it happens I have a Herbie's mat that I'm using on the Rega after numerous DIY spot mats, cork mats, liner mats, etc.
It seems that everyone replaces the stock feet. The replacements have ranged from spikes and metal cubes to soft domes and inner tubes. The official L07 add-on was high density pads of something like sorbothane or neoprene. I like that approach. I have a Symposium clone I've been using under the Rega so I'll try that as well.
Quite a few of the KD-500 turntables sported a Platter Matter mat that was slightly heavier than the stock Kenwood mat. I'v had the bottom off my KD-500 and by the looks of it I'd say it's plywood and all in all the base IMO isn't resonant. I'd give it a good listen before doing anything to the underside of the platter, the Platter Matter mat seemed to do the trick without overdamping the table. Probably where your going to get the biggest return is with the tonearm and cartridge. The KD-500 sported some of the better tonearms available at the time, Infinity Black Widow, Grace 707, Sumiko MMT, SME 3009, ADC etc with many fine period cartridges.
Just drop the motor out of it's hole! Lean it on something!
Don't know about the P3 specifically, but if you open up the plastic covering, the motor is in there. Is it screwed or glued in there??
On a Planar 3, I just let it sit on a wood block. It sounds very good to me this way. I had to fabricate a little donut to clear the axle, but they sell a little bearing cup that is suppose to be an improvement. I think that and a new upgrade belt and buying the wood would set you back maybe $60.00.
The P3s big improvement was a new motor/mounting. It is not like the Planars.
I think they choose a quieter motor. Thank heaven!
So, they 'screw' or is it 'glue'? I think screw if original and glue if upgrade. So, just unscrew the motor and let it sit on a block. Now you have an outboard motor! An improvement in my book!!
Overall, other than this tweak, I think your cartridge or other factor could be limiting.
Keep what you have. When digitizing use earphones to hear so that the sound doesn't disturb the table
If I had a ~$500 range, I'd go buy something like an old AR or Systemdek. I don't think you can get more bang for your buck at that price.
I'd snap up something like this, it will spank the Rega.
I have both a Rega (all the usual mods) and an AR "The Turntable" with some simple mods as well (nothing too extravagant).
The AR trounces the Rega. But I do still like the Rega and will probably hang onto it for sentimental sake.
Oh I should mention the AR has a Black Widow tonearm.
-Dogwan
The Rega p3 is the most overpriced deck of them all. Full retail on Rega p3 is nothing short of highway robbery.
I think the Technics 1200 with the RB300 and your current cartridge will rock. Rega delivers the goods but not so much when you pay for list. Even on the used market for 350-400$ the Rega is no match for the Technics 1200.
The stock 1200 arm and good cartridge is a great combo. Perhaps you could move the 1200 arm to the p3 and have two tables for 500$.
Have fun. It's all subjective. I personally hate Rega prodcuts. A Thorens TD150 will easily smoke the Rega p9.
Throw yer tomatoes and eggs...But like I said it's all subjective :)
> > I personally hate Rega prodcuts. < <
Obviously.
That fact alone, proves that all your silly and totally worthless anti-Rega remarks are anything but "subjective".
TB1
First a question for NoTechnics. Is Ivor your uncle?
Myles, unfortunately I believe it is very difficult to make a specific recommendation for any table in the $400-500 range. Too much will depend on individual condition. I agree a SP-10 or 15 would provide a major improvement but can't imagine you would find one for that price with a plinth, especially if someone had it recently serviced.
The best I could suggest would be to look for a clean example of a major brand - a Technics 12xx series can be fitted with your Rega arm, and so long as it was not beat to death as a DJ table should be an improvement. Likewise a Kenwood 500 or 600 can provide an upgrade if working properly.
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
M3 lover,
I agree that I won't get something with a plinth for that price but
I can make a plinth for next to nothing having access to both woodworking and metal working shops. My brother is a stone mason as well. He specializes in upgrading Park Avenue residences. You should hear those stories!
I don't think a 1200 would be enough of an upgrade to justify. The Kenwood 500 seems to be within my budget complete with plinth. What I've been reading today indicates that it is a very nice spinner. That may be a good place to try out the DD approach. Thanks for the info.
The OP should take "NO TECHNICS" with a grain of salt, he pops up whenever any direct drive is mentioned with negative comments that are groundless. As Lew said in the price range of $400-$500 the Kenwood KD-500 and KD-600 are excellent and came with excellent tonearms. Also the Technics SL-150 Mk1 and Mk2 are another quartz or servo direct drive turntables that came armless and the owner installed an excellent tonearm. I have a Kenwood KD-500 with a Sumiko MMT tonearm that would shame the Rega you have now.
As I recall, the Kenwood KD-500 and KD-600 were sold new without arms. The KD-550 and KD-650 came with Kenwood arms.
Now due to their age, most 500s and 600s will likely come with some arm attached. If the OP felt the aftermarket arm was better than his Rega he could keep it. Otherwise, remove that arm, sell it, and install the Rega arm.
An audio buddy had a KD-650 which I felt was a surprisingly good table and arm. Absolutely quiet, very good bass, rock steady speed with piano notes, easy to use, and I thought it looked very nice.
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
I picked up A Kenwood KD-600 for $20. It came with a Profile II tonearm, a Pickering NP/AC cart and an unopened pickering stylus 604-D7T that says it's a replacement for a Pickering D1507-AT-1,-2; D-at-2. The wires connecting the headshell to the cart are damaged and need replacing.
What should be replaced and what should I keep? I'm on a budget so can't go overboard so what's the weakest link in this setup?
Turn me on dead man.
Edits: 08/14/17
I picked up A Kenwood KD-600 for $20. It came with a Profile II tonearm, a Pickering NP/AC cart and an unopened pickering stylus 604-D7T that says it's a replacement for a Pickering D1507-AT-1,-2; D-at-2. The wires connecting the headshell to the cart are damaged and need replacing.
What should be replaced and what should I keep? I'm on a budget so can't go overboard so what's the weakest link in this setup?
Turn me on dead man.
"I want to digitize my collection and only do it once and I think the P3 is the weak point."
Virtually any table with a platter that sits on the motor is going to be a weak point. The motor vibration gets transferred to the stylus.
The noisiest tables I've owned were belt drive. A cheap belt drive table uses a toy DC motor that whirrs away at some high RPM. The trick (to belt drive) is spending enough to get a really good motor. A direct drive table uses a very low speed motor with coils that are gradually energized using positional feedback. Even the cheap dd tables I've had produced virtually no motor noise, and vary mostly in terms of torque and speed stability.
Edits: 11/09/11
NoTechnics,
I held the same opinion for a long time. I've read enough from people with high end systems using DD tables that I'm prepared to be proven wrong. Do you have a different table you would like to recommend?
A possibility within your budget if you want to keep the Rega arm is a Technics SL-1200Mk2 (preowned). Remove the arm and purchase a arm base plate for the Rega arm. If the Rega arm is unmodded it might be a close call between the Technics arm and the Rega arm IMO. After you finish transfering your LPs to digital the SL-1200Mk2 will be easy to sell and you should get back all you spent on it.
I like VPI, Nottingham and Well Tempered. Didn't reading about DD get you into your current situation? I would think the last thing you'd want to do is repeat that history.
> > Virtually any table with a platter that sits on the motor is going to be a weak point. The motor vibration gets transferred to the stylus. < <
Not "any" DD table, some of the better DD's sound quite transparent. And this isn't just a problem with DD, if the belt driven motor vibrates, unless that noise is isolated (very difficult) it will be transferred to the platter/stylus.
The fact is, early Rega's had very noisy motors, and the cheap "rubber" band isolation didn't help much to isolate it from the stylus. A shame, considering the main bearing was well designed.
TB1
I would heartily recommend a Technics SP-15 or similar model. I acquired a SP-15 from the local radio station about five years ago, for free. It required some minor repair, but nothing serious. I fabricated a plinth for it and added a Jelco tonearm.
It is without question an exceptionally fine turntable. Rock solid quartz-locked speed stability, and no discernable wow/flutter or rumble. As a three speed, it excels in spinning 78s as well as 45s/LPs. The plus/minus 10% variable pitch control with digital readout also makes it superb for playing historic discs, from the acoustic era.
Sorry, I can't comment or compare to a Rega P3 because I've never owned one nor is it likely I ever will.
IMO, an SP10 would kill a P3, but where are you going to find one in decent condition for under $500, your apparent upper limit? Other ideas the might fit your budget AND outperform the Rega would be a Lenco or a top echelon vintage direct-drive such as one of the better Kenwood, Pioneer, or Denon models. Any of those latter might require servicing, etc.
Lew,
The last couple SP 10s I watched went for around $300 for units pulled out of counters (actually some were sawed out with part of the counter still attached.) Yes, they will need some work and a plinth made. I haven't been able to find enough information on the other units you mentioned. I also see that most of those are complete turntables with arms.
Do you have any idea as to how the Kenwood/Pioneer/Denon arms compare to an RB300/Cardas?
I had a Garrard years ago, then a Phillips 212 and the Regas, so I'd like to try a DD unit. My wife keeps complaining about things being off speed on the Rega. She thinks it is slow sometimes. I don't hear it.
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