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I'm running a Technics SL-B200 with a Technics SH-8025 Equalizer thru a Pioneer SX-253R receiver. Audio Technica AT92E magnetic cartridge. I'm getting better than "flat" sound out of this setup, but I am not fully satisfied.
At the end of some records, I receive loud sections of distortion during higher end vocal or instrumental frequencies.
Great example....."Moondance" by Van Morrison. Last song on side 1, "Into the Mystic" his scat vocals at the end of the song totally distort. Also The Beatles "Abbey Road" MFSL at the end of "I Want You/She's So Heavy"....John's last vocal scream distorts.
Is this normal? I have heard that the end of some records distort some because of the cramped spaces between the grooves. I thought having a ecliptical stylus would eliminate that?
BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL!!!!!
Is there a "best" way of setting up these 7 band eq's? I have the "wave" motion currently set with more imphasis on the 6.3 and 16 bands for vocals.
Follow Ups:
I would at least check your vtf.I had an AT95 on my tt for a while and never had a problem with inner groove distortion.
enjoy,
mark
Also make sure all of your connections are tight.
Do you have an anti-skate adjustment?If so,make sure it is set properly.
Edits: 04/06/10
Get rid of the equalizer and see if the problem goes away.
....
I don't mean any disrespect to you. I am not picking on your comment.
However this is a good opportunity to point out the common misconceptions about P Mount turntables. I have sold mid fi and hi fi equipment and have set up turntables which includes P Mount tonearms.
Every table needs to rest on the best support you can give it. It needs to be as level as possible.
Tracking angle and tracking force are adjustable on most P-Mount tables.
If you are not properly set up to play LP's then any other things you do might take you even further away from an easy solution.
"Help support our school's Music programs"
I didn't mean that there is no way to affect the setup of a P-mount. I simply noticed that people were giving setup advice based on the assumption of another type of turntable. Notice I already suggested adjusting tracking force in an earlier reply.
Edits: 04/06/10
I think its important that the archives reflect that all turntables require a basic level of set up before looking into other aspects of performance issues.
I did not intend to create friction, just to lay out a framework to establish a base line against which other changes and alterations can be performed knowing you are getting closer to a positive result than aiming at a constantly moving target.
Cheers!
"Help support our school's Music programs"
I had a P-mount table (a Technics as well) and it tracked poorly in the inner grooves. Apparently a design flaw (or feature?). IMHO, I was glad to be back to a 'table that allowed adjustment...
"When a musician believes that music is a commodity, music dies in them." - Robert Fripp
First, you should make sure the tonearm is basically parallel to the LP on the platter. This is a good place to start. You might need to be a little up or down but start level.
Next are you using the manufacturer's method for vertical tracking force or do you have a digital scale? Make sure the VTF is right in the middle of the manufacturer's stated range.
Set the anti skate at the same level as the vertical tracking force but understand this is not a calibrated measurement, so you may need a bunch more or less in your set up.
Of course you need to be sure the table is supported and is not bouncing up and down on a speaker or some other resonant support.
Do you know your albums actual condition? Some used records can be very baddly damaged and look ok. Make sure you do your testing with a well known album of mint condition.
Let us know how this works out!
"Help support our school's Music programs"
I would doubt that your distortion problem is being caused by the equalizer. It is more probably due to the cartridge/arm setup. Did you follow the instructions for aligning the cartridge and setting the vertical tracking force carefully?
While the phenomenon of inner-groove distortion (IGD) is very real and to some extent unavoidable, it sounds like you're hearing more of it than you should. I'd suspect this is a matter of correct cartridge alignment. Double check your work and also get a better idea of the entire subject at the link below. Check out the other turntable entries at the FAQ section of this site.
EQs are a controversial subject, to say the least. Many feel they do more to degrade the sound than to help it. To some, they are strictly anathema. There is no one "correct" way to set them up. They are best used with a test record and sound-pressure-level meter that can analyze your in-room frequency response. With that information, you can make judicious alterations with the EQ. You might build your knowledge base by doing a bit of googling.
I'm not sure what you mean by "better than flat sound," because from a technical standpoint, there is nothing better than flat. From a practical listening standpoint, really flat response is often perceived as overly bright. BTW, how do you know you're getting "better than flat" response? Have you already used a test record and level meter?
Good luck.
-Bob
There are lots of great things in the FAQ that help out these sorts of issues.
Cheers!
"Help support our school's Music programs"
Set it in the closet. You'll be amazed at the improvement.
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
..but I don't like to use it.
HOWEVER
I read a rather disturbing thread on a mastering forum (I'm sorry if this is new to most people here, but I am going to be mastering something for vinyl soon and I need to know what it going on) - concerning the frequency roll offs that are used when cutting vinyl, and one person said they roll off the top at 16kHZ! Seems very low - the reason given is it is a compromise between the sibilance/distortion that they EXPECT vinyl listeners to hear on playback.
I wondered - why not add the top end back with an EQ, to taste, or to the degree to which you can tolerate the 'sibilance', if it occurs - the benefit being perhaps a more open and airy sound overall. - More detail/recovering some elements which have been EQ-supressed.
As I say I prefer not to use it because as has been stated before most records go through a lot of EQing and at the mastering stage it is usually 'corrective' EQ - so I like to trust the final product so to speak
But if there are people rolling off at such frequencies it seems it is not taking advantage of the full spectrum offered by vinyl on the assumption that, for most listeners, if it is left as it is it will simply sound bad?!
Jim
Sorry ,I meant in the first paragraph 'if this is nothing new' (to you)
The quality of the components are also in play. While I believe in the straight wire with gain philosophy, it really depends on the sophistication of the system. Sometimes an added element can sound better in systems with less resolution , or if they are correcting for room acoustics.
All records have some kind of EQ used in the production, so they are not all automatically bad. Most home EQ are not that kind of quality, however. But one must consider the setting. It might not be any more of a sonic problem than other equipment in the system, so the net result is an increase in enjoyment.
I sometimes run some eq in my car radio, just to play around on certain source material.
a 3-4 band parametric.
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
You've answered the post two different ways. Put the eq in the closet, and only use a 3-4 band parametric. Henry, did you spend any time in his room listening to his gear?
This is the stuff that drove Garth nuts.
"Help support our school's Music programs"
ended up taking them off line. The only ones I could successfully integrate were parametrics and then only to correct room acoustic issues. My experience and that of many others I've talked to leads me to the inescapable conclusion that graphic equalizers are a waste of time and $$$.
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
if the sound is missing or bad somewhere, use whatever resources to upgrade, and/or move the speakers, equipment and use room treatments, not an equalizer.
Rick
It's all about the music!
Then a standard equilizer can be simply a step side ways. Usually dynamics and transient detail suffer in the exchange.But if you want to add value Henry, then realize not everyone has these pre-requisites.
I have friends who would rather not have a stereo than have a stereo without an equilizer. Who are you to be judgemental? Have you sold and set up any gear in your lifetime?
Henry if you want to be a good advisor here on the asylum you need to remember that the system and the room define the rules of engagement.
Garth and Pete beat that into my head the first year I joined the asylum and they were right to do so.
And taking both sides of an argument? Well that is simply "insanity".
"Help support our school's Music programs"
Edits: 04/06/10
your stand on equalizers makes me seriously question your perceptions.
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
'Course the last one I tried was a Soundcraftsmen, when it was new :-)
I have had friends with large or small rooms, large or small speakers, large or small receivers/amp and the equilizer did more good than bad.
I don't run any equilization other than a three way selector on my phono and the loading options on my LOMC head amp (which I can do on the fly).
SAE made a wonderful parametric equilizer that was great for dialing in just what you needed. You could nail the bass without having to blast everyone out of the house.
"Help support our school's Music programs"
Some of what you're hearing is probably normal. Better styli can improve tracking and reduce distortion, but would not fully eliminate it. The inner groove is more susceptible to tracking error. Records are more like to have wear in the inner groove, due to the tracking error they've experienced. You might be able to slightly reduce tracking issues by increasing your tracking force. A worn stylus could also cause the problem and is often one of the most-likely candidates. I assume your turntable can apply tracking force adjustments of +/-0.25g, but I'm not totally sure.As for the equalizer, that's something that ideally would be based on the room and the other components in your system. To emphasive vocals, you could ramp up through the midrange and back down through the upper midrange. My taste has changed over the years. I used to push the midrange down. Now, my primary system has no tone controls at all. If I were going to use an eq, I would use it only to address room acoustics.
Edits: 04/06/10
I just thought I would add a little more to the above accurate information.
As you run the EQ away from flat, the distortion increases. All of the things the above poster says are in play, but he politely did not mention that you are probably adding distortion on top of the inner groove distortion. This EQ setting might not be a problem on the more gentle turns, but on the inner grooves, the amount from the two sources of distortion might combine to make it very noticeable.
Plus, speakers trying to reproduce distortion often find the signal very difficult, so they also will distort the signal trying to give note to wave forms outside of their design limits. In the worst cases, the drivers no longer move correctly, and the voice coils will move in a non linear fashion, instead of a straight in and out, you get a wobble as it moves. This might also be an added source of distortion, it's just speculation. The other two you can count on.
of the circuit and see if you still get the distortion--I'm betting you won't.
I've had more than one equalizer in my various systems over the years and found that nearly all contributed distortion of one form or another. Removing the equalizer always solved the problem, so I go without.
Also, remember that the sliders for each band are usually linear potentiometers and can collect crud just like the rotating variety and the crud can be the source of distortion; even when not being moved.
Good luck!
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Shure M97xE(2); Technics SL-1210M5G; Sony SCD-XA777ES; Denon AVR-4806; Denon DVD-5910; Paradigm Reference Studio/100, Studio/20, Studio/CC; Boston Acoustics PV1000
--Eschew Obfuscation
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