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76.91.197.88
Just got to thinking, we spend so much time here talking source and pre-amp --- i.e. table, arm, cartridge and phonostage...
..and we don't really mention what the downstream half is comprised of....
What serves your vinyl source(s) as primary Power Amp and Speakers ?
housepet in a box ©
Follow Ups:
nt
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nothing fancy. a stock dynaco stereo-70 (ok, i put in a diode to replace the selenium stack) with original tubes, and a pair of double new large advents i built into new 4-foot high enclosures.
btw, the pre is a PAS, also original (but has a new xfmr), and the TT is a dual 1245 with an assortment of cartridges. also an FM-1.
nt
G
Marantz 8B + Tannoy Reds.
Envy your system there.
I think this one appears in the Audiocyclopedia next under 'classic'.
Pictures ? Show them even if cabs are bare birchply !
Sound must be like liquid gold.
Ok. I'll settle down. It is friday, after all....
housepet in a box ©
A buddy of mine has a pair of those amps. Great sound!
nt
...Klipsch RB-5.....with previous set-up....
Love this amp!
I have enjoyed Roksan Kandy 1-Mk III for about 4 years, almost got the upgrade itch, but a friend that came over the other day said, "leave it alone." And I have particularly enjoyed my old stuff and 2 other systems.
and modded Klipsch Lascalas.
__
Going to trial with a lawyer who considers your whole life-style a Crime in Progress is not a happy prospect.
Hunter S. Thompson
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nt
System Details
EV Regency III speaker and Pilot AA-904 amp using the McIntosh MR-55's phono in, so no preamp needed.
Very very nice.
Uhm, top-o-speaker components only temporary ?
How about some wall-bracketry for those tubey denizens ?
housepet in a box ©
when I listen to this rig...the TT is not on the speaker at least...:-)
That is a wonderful system utilizing Macs slimline components. The dual mc7100s is a nice touch. If your speakers are bi-wireable, have you tried vertical bi-amping with one amp bi-amped per speaker, instead of using the amps as mono blocks. I'd be interested in the difference in sound.
Mike
nt
Talk about low class. Almost not worthy of membership here.
Anyway, I am impressed by the enormous diversity here, and the time spent by all of you in research and set-up.
On the other hand, it's easy to see why we all differ in the interpretation of component and software sound.
Congratulations to you hardcore hobbyists. Bill.
Definitely not low class! In particular, that N.E.W A 20.1 is a fine sounding "high-bias class A" amp.
NT
nt
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"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
nt
nt
ARC D250/ Proac response 3.8
Pilot 260/ proac response 2.5
Quad II monblocks/ Rogers 15 ohm BBC Ls3/5a
Pilot 232/ Rogers Studio 7
s
Regards, Jerry
nt
IBSmiester
Open Your Ears....
Got an amp pulled from a Sylvania console (p-p 7591 tubes, sand power supply, dead quiet usually) feeding Bozak B401cd's. It's not crazy loud but it's pretty swell.
--nosmok
In my Living Room I'm using my old Quad ESL 57 speakers with Pathos Classic amp. and REL sub-woofer.
In my Studio I'm using Spender S100s with a TS Audio 300B SET amp., which I switch to my VTL tiny triods from time to time.
nt
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -HST
nt
nt
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nt
!!!!!
nt
Tom
Portland, Oregon
nt.
a pics worth a thousand words. On this forum it's about 10,000,000 words!
All these Techie postings.....and no visual aids drive me nuts. When I discuss my musical postings......everybody see's what I'm discussing.
I don't know WHY people aren't required to have pics of their systems.............so people like myself can actually SEE what the hell people are talking about.
Tom B.
translation please
well, tom, many members here did post pictures , and I'm sure others would have if they had the capability.....
as to the point you make about "everybody sees what I'm discussing", well..
I'm not so sure about that.
I think you may first have to post photos that are legible without magnification or photoshopping ...
...just an idea.
housepet in a box ©
How close to my Bottlehead Paraglow, EAR 834 P L, Nottingham, Graham 2.2 does one have to get. I don't have access to an electron microscope!!
Or is the pic of the London Blueback not legible enough for you? The Wally Scale is in my picture gallery. Look's clear to me.
Just a little confused, Tom B.
housepet in a box ©
IE, what's the title of the record ?
Dark & indistinct @ normal settings on a viewsonic P95f+ monitor here.
housepet in a box ©
travisty, maybe you could interpret images for us. '-)
Tom
Line by line, it is...
Le Baiser de la Fée
Stravinsky (Complete Ballet)
Epilogue - Berceuse of the Eternal Dwellings
ERNESTE ANSERMET
conducting
L'ORCHESTRE DE LA
SUISSE ROMANDE
then around the bottom...
Made In England
ALL RIGHTS OF THE MANUFACTURER AND OF THE OWNER OF THE RECORDED MUSIC RESERVED - UNAUTHORIZED PUBLIC PERFORMANCE, BROADCASTING, AND COPYING OF THIS RECORD PROHIBITED
:^)
I love this ballet actually - originally done by Balanchine?
I keep trying other combos, but this just does everything I need it to do ...
Second, crazy-man system (the one with ruby-cantilevered cartridges and tube preamp): Heathkit AA-121 & E-V 12TRXb on open baffles, with a sub crossed over at ~100Hz coming from the center channel output - a twin sub is in the plan, but so is finding another job ;)
Upstairs, Mapleshade modded Scott 222C and Plaex planar speakers.
There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
Audire Legato preamp with Onkyo M-5000 and Vector Research power amps, running Goodmans Magnus XL 3-way floorstanders. Soon to replace the VR amp with a Kyocera A-710 (running with preamp bypassed), for more power. The Goodmans can handle anything you throw at them!
"Trying to make it real ... compared to what?" - Les McCann & Eddie Harris, "Swiss Movement"
Sometimes use a SE PE1/100 amp into the high level inputs on the 550K's
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With my decked-out Micro Seiki RX 5000 AIR, with it's SX-8000 motor unit, MS audio base, MAX 282 tonearm system and Air-Tight PC-1 Supreme cartridge, I use an Accuphase C-2810 and C-27 preamps, a set of A-60's and M-8000 monoblocks, driving a pair of Avalon Isis speakers.
With my Micro Seiki BL-51, with its MA 707 tonearm system and Sound-Smith SMMC-1 cartridge, I use an Accuphase C-260/P-360 and a set of updated Polk SDA 2B's.
I have 2 other systems that do not current utilize a turntable.
5A's some day
Just sold off my 90's Rotel preamp and amp. Love this Marantz receiver! It has built in Bi-Amp capability! 130wpc in two channel stereo mode. Nice :)
____
*Analog fans may be blind-but digital fans are deaf*
http://www.flickr.com/photos/82495693@N00/
A musical combo.
Salk SongTowers driven by a Bob Latino ST70 ( using NOS Sylvania 6CA7s ) or soon to be added Latino ST120 ( using Gold Lion re-issue KT 88s ). An ACI Titan powered sub completes the package.
Main amp and speakers: custom Rogue Atlas/original Quad ESL
Subwoofer: 24 dB/octave crossover at 63 Hz with Belles One and dipole Hartley 24" woofer,flat to 22 Hz, down 2 dB at 20 Hz, :-)
A modest but extremely pleasing system. I've heard no other receiver, at any price, that sounds better than the Pioneer, and plenty that weren't as good. I think I was lucky and got a 780 from the top of the heap.
Have you checked the database INMATE SYSTEMS? Many of us have all our major components listed there.
This is my primary system.
My Adcom was overhauled in 07, including upgraded caps and resistors. A sweet match for my ARC SP16 tube pre and plenty of power for the TriosThe Trios are a constant source of pleasure, with incredible transparency and amazing musicality. I have enjoyed them for 10 years and have no plans to replace them.
Edits: 04/16/09
nt
n/t
Wyred4Sound SX1000 Mono Blocks, Maggie 3.6R Speakers, I'm currently using a Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated as my PRE. I hope to get the W4S Pre for Christmas. I have a Graham Slee Reflex for a MM Phono Stage.
Edits: 04/16/09
Shindo Montille 6V6 version, Altec Model 19's
I bet you are happy while sipping a nice Black Butte!
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Art Audio Custom JOTA High Current Monos (Orange globe Amperex 6dj8s, Tung-sol 12bh7s, EML 520Bs)Verity Audio Parsafal encores, all siltech gen 3
Digital - Rotel RB-1092 and B&W N804 w/ B&W ASW800 sub
Analogue- Rotel RB-1092 and Dynaudio 52SE w/ Dynaudio Sub20A
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K&K/Lundhal SUT, ARC SP6-c1 pre, H-K Citaion II amp, modified Altec 846b Valencia. Tubes and horns are the best!
Edits: 04/16/09
nt
Tom
Portland, Oregon
Audiomat Solfege Reference and Equation Model 15
Also use some Yorkville YSM-1 studio monitors with a HSU STF-1. Love the Yorkvilles but still working on integrating the HSU.
But I have other speakers and amps, Golden Tube SE 40, Musical Fidelity 3CR, 2 Dared SE amps, in speakers I have Infinity IL50 and IM2.6, GoldSound .6 and modded .8 as well as JBL 325A and MasterSOurce.
t
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NT
I'd like to try a pair of Lumley M100's though ! Or maybe another pair of Lindsley Hoods to bi-amp.
Edits: 04/17/09 04/17/09
nt
******************************
It's the MUSIC Dummy!
ok, sure
Here's mine,
photo from last Winter. We had a little bit of snow in the Seattle area.
integrated amp: Classe' CAP 151
spkrs: NHT 2.9
the rest of the sordid details can be seen at link below
-Steve
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Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
The Adcom is one shelf up from the bottom
The Maggies were a trade off but turned out pretty good.
Someone gave me a pair of MG1s a few months ago but I have to move my listening room to try them out. I was thinking of hooking both the MG-1s and MGMC1s up simultaneously. Perhaps flanking the MG-1s with the MGMC1s on the outer edges.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Real similar to my setup (see post above)! My Maggies flank a fireplace and replaced a pair of Dahlquist DQ-20s that my wife referred to as "the ironing boards in the living room"...
Yamaha RX-V1800 and a pair of PSB Image T45 towers
NT
NT
sorry for the triple post's .
nt.
The Adcom GFA-555II power amp is the big black box on the bottom.
Happy Listening,
Teresa
.
... I have a good friend running the exact pairing - hard, if not impossible, to beat for the money!
.
...soon to be in some MLTLs with new-issue Golden Lions
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
the sweet highs and midrange of the music reference and the deep bass of the quatro's amplified subwoofers make a great combination
..
bring bac k dynamic range
nt
I'm using the Rotel RMB-1075 to bi-amp a pair of KEF Q11.
After almost 20 years without listening to vinyl, I just bought a Stanton TT (yeah, I know it's a DJ TT and I'm not getting the best I could but that's what I could get around town), and the sound from the records was absolutely amazing, it clearly beat the sound of CDs.
Now I'm in the process or replacing my HT receiver for a stero preamp, at least that's the plan.
.
that's it!
ARC VT100 with the M19s is, well, a lot of amp!
Have you tried something single-ended?
FWIW... I do almost the same thing, running VTL 450s in triode on horn speakers (isobaric woofers are only 96db so need more oomph than my 13w amp (but obviously don't need 200+ watts)... Trying slowly to find the right replacement...
I used to have a pair of Klipschorns that I drove with Welborne 300B SETs--wonderful amps for those big guys. However, I ultimately decided to let go of the K-horns and shortly afterwards sold the SETs as well to recoup the money I had invested. ARC VT-100s are a bit of overkill with my Quads or Model 19s, but they are quiet, sound great, and I don't have to worry about running out of steam. Both pairs of speakers sound great with the ARC preamp and amp, so I figure if it ain't broke don't "fix" it!
I'd like to get it down to one pair of speakers, but it'll take me quiet awhile to decide which way to go. I love them both, but, of course, they're very different. Model 19s are HUGE, crisp and a little bass heavy, Quads are sweet, detailed and a bit less dynamic...I love these old components...very good audio for the money, and I love that vintage vibe!
Cheers,
George
Decware Zen Triode el34 integrated and JM Reynaud Trente speakers work together sweetly to make some mighty fine music, I must say.
"...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
I listened the JMR Trente' in my system before buying the Offrande, and they're amazingly good speakers.
If I may, a suggestion: IMO, you really gotta get those Trente' A) the hell away from your turntable, and B) out into the room and well clear from the front and side walls, preferably on JMR's excellent, light, rigid, and carefully-tuned "Magic" stands (see link). They're designed to break-up standing waves between the speaker and the floor, and absorb resonant energy between 100 and 400 Hz. I tried the Trente' on some generic Target stands adjusted to the same height, and switching to the JMR stands really improved their top-to-bottom balance.
I know how much low frequency energy those Trente' kick out, and there's no way that a few footers and platforms are going to serve as an adequate vibration barrier 'twixt the speakers and your turntable. You might as well support your 'table on the hood of an old Mustang with the engine running. ;0)
No offence - I realize that you may have space/WAF/whatever constraints, but I thought I'd mention the Magic stands just in case...
"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
You make good and noted points about the speaker placement/ set-up, but I especially chose the Trente for the position they're in, as they are VERY easy to place.
I realize I don't have then set-up uptimally (and hope some day to actually hear them set-up uptimally!), but you'd be really surprised at how well they perform the way they are set-up!
Also, surprisingly, the ridiculous placement next to the TT has NOT produced any glaring (or other) sonic difficulties. I've been lucky with this arrangement and it's the only possible way for me to set-up this (or any) system in our cramped apartment.
I'm CRAVING some Offrandes (and envious of yours), but realize they would be SERIOUSLY compromised in my system, no way could I utilize them with their stands, and trying to do so without would be completely foolish.
We do what we can in pursuit of better sound, but my landlord wouldn't appreciate me taking out any of his walls, and my wife won't tolerate any
into the room speaker placement.
Such is life!
"...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
Gotcha - I thought it was something like that. You chose well (not that you need me to tell you that!). I agree that the Trente' are unusually placement-friendly. OTOH, I spent a good deal of time dialing-in my Offrande. Once I had them in the optimal room location, a few degrees of toe-in or an inch or two of repositioning can have a pronounced effect.The Trente' weren't quite able to fully energize my 24' x 13' x 8' room, where the more potent Offrande are just about perfect, but the latter might be pushing it in your room. I'd be concerned about their more powerful bass exciting the room nodes and overwhelming a square 13' x 13' space without some serious (low WAF!) acoustic treatments like towering corner bass traps.
That said, the two speakers are actually very similar - the Offrande are more robust and revealing - JMR would probably say "insightful" - but the Trente' are just as involving, and they share the Offrande's rare balance of 'romantic' warmth and incisive detail.
Now, about upgrading that wife o' yours...
;0)
"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
Edits: 04/16/09
with AER drivers. The bottom is handled by JBL 4648 (2 15" woofers per side) pro cinema bass cabs, powered by a Citation 19 SS amp, through an active Ashley crossover.
Kef Kolindas, Mission 737s, and a pair of Snell model 1s I need to do some work on.
Other amps: Onkyo integrated A8087 100wpc, Denon AVR-1804 for HT, and a Yamaha CR-2020 that is awaiting repair work.
nt
listed in profile
Given the choice to be an Elephant or a Jackass, I chose Elephant. It seemed the logical choice to me. They're both wild senseless animals but one represents less sense than the other.
NT
I love both the Quad monos and Tannoys....I'd like to get some Glenairs in the future.
Have a good one.
Ayre V1xe, Vandersteen 5A
xx
Some think levinsons sound dry or brittle. To me the no.383 is dead neutral tonally, and ever so slightly laid back, a combo I like to think lets me hear exactly what the rest of the chain sounds like. For hours. Without fatigue. My engineer friend says it has a "soft knee." The virgos have been widely commented on here and elsewhere.
Thorens 126 MK-III turntable behind it all.
NT
DLB
"Music is framed in silence."
'-)
Son of Ampzilla 2000 and Magnepan 3.6.
'-)
The Marantz has been re-capped and tuned up by local maven Fred Longworthy.
nt
The Quad 405-2 Folsom modification of new caps and op amps was well worth the upgrade and stacked with KLH / Boston Acoustic combo. Driven by a Technics SL1200 Mk2 and tracking with a AT20SLa Limited Edition. Yes, that is a copy of Stockhausen's Momente.
Edits: 04/15/09
n/t
Nothing to see here...Move along...
Cheerswelly
It is no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase 'As pretty as an Airport' appear.
... I had one in my set up for a while - very very nice.
Yep, it's pretty darn good.
It's just a shame that it's got the NAD name on the front because that immediately seems to put some people off. I must admit that I was a little sceptical at first, but a dealer I visited suggested giving it a listen while I was visiting his store to audition another amp.
Guess which one I preferred... :-)
Cheerswelly
It is no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase 'As pretty as an Airport' appear.
Cool!
Musical Fidelity 308 Integrated
Focal-JM Labs Micro Utopia Be
Sorry,
Left out the sub - REL Britannia 2
Interesting how few DIY-er's there are among us. Youse guys need to step out and solder something! ;-)
Pete
I think the somewhat diy-reticent vibe around here is that vinyl people are discerning and realistic about themselves and their capabilities.
Many here aren't afraid of mounting multi-$k cartridges, re-wiring tonearms, plinthing tables, building diy interconnects, constructing a rack, and the like.Some aren't afraid of building amps, phonostages, speakers, either, but perhaps most draw the line at those, and the more complex endeavors of that sort. I think many of us know enough to know that we might end up in love with a signature-special-edition-diy unit that sounds great to our own uncalibrated ears, but has never been required to stand up to even minimal audio requirements & testing, so remains an unknown.
I think it's a reasonable reservation to hold (especially here thinking of projects that require spl metering, freq-response figures, spectral analysis, vetting with oscilloscope) -- that a diy project constructed outside of a professional testing regimen may be flawed. And the flaw itself may be unnoticeable, minor, but may undermine other performance aspects. And that one flawed instrument in a chain blows the credibility of the chain.
It is one thing for an audiophile with EE credentials to look at testing results and know what's missing, wrong, masked, unasked or short of expectations, but --- I think it's sometimes the better part of wisdom to know when you don't know. Sure, it's a lifelong journey to increase competency in matters like this, and maybe some of us who built their first interconnects five years back might tackle a standard power amp kit today, but amp design ? Speaker design ? ..Probably not.
And when you change the Q of an enclosure just a touch, or sub a part in a power supply with a slightly enhanced one, where are you on the assembly-versus-design continuum ?
And are you competent, confident to be there, shifting parameters without test facilities ? I'd say some know when they are, and some know when they're not, and ... those are the lucky groups. Some don't know but blunder on anyway.
It all comes down to what you want from the system. Do you just want better background music at the much-lower diy price ? Or is it much more of a sophisticated system you're after--- do you want to be able to discern between first & second violins, assess the alternate takes on historic jazz sides, & listen with complete confidence in the component chain you've assembled..?
Tough to move into serious musical nirvana when you've got doubts about how the gear might have tested on a proper test bench, second thoughts about minimum basic specs vs actual performance. So, lacking the testing capability, many give it a pass.
housepet in a box ©
Edits: 04/16/09
Hey JD,
Your vision of the world of audio gear seems dark and spooky to me. And it assumes that most commercial gear sounds pretty good, which isn't really true, yes? I'm talking about playing music, not sounds.
So...to start, we aren't talking rocket science or brain surgery. :-)
Next, if it sounds good it is good. :-)
Finally, since when have test bench measurements ensured doodly with respect to how the gear plays music? Never.
But if it's safer to leave such dark and arcane arts up to geniuses and EE's then so be it. We each define our own reality. Mine is full of glowing tubes and spinny-shiny things that make very good music...
Pete
We're both talking about playing music, not sounds.
I'm dropping preconceptions about diy left and right as I evolve, which means study, research, and rabbitting away on sound projects of all kinds.
But to some people it doesn't mean that. To some it means not much research, not much study, and untested, unverifiable results that are earnestly cited with that epic self-prophesying fallacy : " sounds good to me ! "
Here's the most ridiculous claim in the diy (or any other) book : "If it sounds good it is good ".
Try that line of logic with anything--- automobile manufacture, restauranteur practice, sub-prime lending, parasailing, aquaculture shrimp farming --if it seems good it must be good-- and you may have disasters of many shapes & sizes. At minimum you're risking multiple flaws, seen or unseen.
Untested, seems-like/sounds-like/oughta-be results ---aren't reliable results. Sorry. My music collection and my finite time to appreciate it deserve better.
You make the point that commercial gear is tested and often doesn't sound good. Fine, but that's going around the other end of the discussion to prove not much.
Accomplished diy comes from those who know as much or more than the commercial designers, and also manage to vet and verify as much as the commercial concerns, even though not having their financial overhead. They don't all test their specs in-house, some send it out, but they all test, which is expensive one way or the other.
To me that's a rare skill set combined with investment in overhead, encompassing much and likely not held in common by all of the internet diy community out there.
I suspect that you're more of the research and test/vet contingent, but who knows. This is the internet. It sounds as good as anyone says that it sounds . Regardless of how it would be judged by veteran sound pros, say, or a panel of experts armed with EEs.
Tell me, should I build, say, a two-way speaker system and just tinker till I can say, with all honesty but no testing--- 'sounds good to me'..? I don't think that's adequate.
The spirit and wide-open horizon for the Diy concept is inspiring and encourages greater understanding of the audio sciences; but it has to be grounded in real test-able, vet-able practice.
I refuse to subject my brain to somebody's untested "idea" of a speaker system or amp for which there has been no testing, no check to see if it does more than play--- I need to know it performs to minimum spec to want to invest any time in listening. Or to invest my music collection in systems that may have weird peaks, dropouts, rolloffs, jitter, funny eq, etc.
It's not rocket science, but it is audio science, and to know if you're getting adequate project results, you need adequate assurances --freq response, maybe a run of some test-tones on the scope, that kinda thing-- to know that you're not just playing diy games with your own self-appreciation.
housepet in a box ©
Hmmm...methinks you're speaking out of distrust of the unknown.
Really, JD, it's not that hard to build tube circuits that sound great. I prefer tube designs because the parts count is low and the results are inherently musical. It's very similar to cooking or brewing beer - the best ingredients simply prepared can be magical. Hard to accept maybe, but true all the same.
Do you really think Budweiser and Coors are the only companies qualified to produce top quality beer with their labs, test equipment and boffins in white coats? And are all the micro-brewers (and their fans) delusional?
Um...no. Sorry. Thankfully there are still things in the world that a motivated individual can excel at, and even break new ground once in a while.
Granted, solid state is more difficult to get 'right' which is why so few designers get it right. John Curl, Nelson Pass, Walt Jung - all brilliant SS designers. To be absolutely correct I should say brilliant ANALOG SS designers. Too many of the goobers in the biz were trained in digital EE techniques and their amps sound sterile because of it. So even the propeller-heads get it wrong if they don't start out with the right context. Technology is not a substitute for vision or creativity.
You also seem to have a very low regard for your fellow audio enthusiast. Why wouldn't any of us be able to tell when something sounds right? What formal training allowed you to grasp the essential goodness of your 301? Was it tenth grade math or college intro to Physics 101? Did you scope and measure your 301 to "prove" how musical and right it sounds? Did you have a trained listening panel evaluate your 301?
No. You could hear it. I bet the English gents who designed the 301 did as much listening and tweaking to the design as they did formal analysis. Like it or not, that is the way of many things in this world.
(Even doctors have to poke around for parts once in a while. I have a friend who regularly scares the crap out of me despite her years of med school and medical experience. The stories she tells... Life is uncertain and variable. Really.)
Please. I'm not claiming that rigour and technical knowledge aren't beneficial, but there have been enough stinkers designed by really bright guys for me to ignore that as a "necessary" ingredient for success. Yes, it helps, but it's not impossible without it.
To get back to your original post in this thread, I think some vinylistas are not sensitive and insightful so much as OCD and anal-retentive. They NEED to feel in control and to be reassured that their gear is absolutely the best that can be designed.
The rest of us, not so much. ;-)
Pete
Believe me, my sympathies and enthusiasms rest on the side of solid, classic circuits, typically tube, or sources, or speakers, diy'd / restored by alternative-thinkers who couldn't abide by the mass-market audio they were being sold by extortion. I think we agree.But since you use the 301 analogy-- here's the thing. As you have it, I am sure it evolved as much from listening as it did from testing. But you don't listen and disdain testing as representative of "conventional" procedure. You start first with the solid testing part.
Whereas ... some diyers do not; if it sounds good, it is good is the motto of some rebels of internet diy audio. And that's wrongheaded.Nobody in their right mind would start tweaking a turntable for tone, timbre or 'musical' attributes had they not first deployed a stroboscope to test the basics. Use of test records and test tones would be early hurdles too.
Not all the diy nation is up to the challenges, yet they liberally participate in the net version of the game, as full charter-members. Maybe you've seen this happening.... So it's worth pointing out there are those who are submitting the book report without having read the book.There's no Diy Institute Of Standards; if sound comes out without electrocuting anybody, there's no further hurdle to be topped. Run to the keyboard and start educating the populace on another diy victory.
All I'm pointing out is that that SET sympathies, idler prat, and listening for 'musicality' are fine, required even, once the dry, tedious business of testing and accuracy are out of the way. And we've all seen enthusiastic but accuracy-deprived diy. Even right here at the vinyl asylum.
So I think there's a line between what can be reliably diy'd without expensive test equipment and what can't go any further without the rigorous testing. Homebuilt tonearms come to mind. I would hate to think my cartridges were handicapped by someone's untested, half-way vetted tonearm design procedure. And as goes the tonearm, so too throughout the system. Thats all.
J.
A question; I assume you test resistors and match them to their purpose, and that's easy enough to do with a Dmm. I assume you choose the right matches and toss the underperformers. Do you do the same, test the other discrete parts, chokes, caps, transformers-- and toss out the underperformers in those categories too ? When you have a first draft of an amp, do you run test tones, sweeps, etc and look at them on a scope ?
Commercial producers do, because they have to. And because it ensures a basic, bottom-line competence level, so that when I'm comparing expensive pressings or listening to tiny nuances between cartridges, I'm assured of a somewhat flat, fullrange sound, and not something 'creative' because of my diy-amp or diy-something-else.
To paraphrase what you've said, Creativity & Vision are not substitutes for Technology, at least in the early going.
One is a simple hurdle that must be cleared, the Technology. The others are the icing on the cake if you've got the first part sorted out already.
housepet in a box ©
Edits: 04/17/09
I love to solder, but so far most of my projects (other than my preamp, which was extensive) have been upgrading parts, improving power supplies, adding new input stages, etc. I'm working on a Dynaco FM-3 tuner at the moment.I'm anxious to build a SET amp to use with my Horns. Now the trick will be getting the "45" tubes and output transformers from a friend of mine who has them. It will be too low powered for my semi-efficient Horns, but nice for occasional listening at moderate volumes.
Pete, your profile had me laughing last night. Very cleverly and humorously written! I'd love to hear your music system.
Solder on, soldier.
Edits: 04/16/09
By ordering several kits from B'head. Will be starting in on the FP3 tomorrow. Am kinda psyched. The 'DIY' TT will be a plinth-job on a 20-25yr old NOS Sony DD I have waiting. Arm and cart won't be DIY I expect. The cables I will do myself. Speakers are a different story. I'd like to DIY some horns plus dyamic woofers but do not have the woodshop to do anything so I will need local woodshop help... (I'd like to try building some modified Sachikos too but that's even more wood and besides I already picked up a pair of used Goto 150Hz horns fer peanuts so...)
I too am surprised by the lack of DIY on the non-DIY forums ('fora' actually, but people look at you as if you're nuts when you use the unfamiliar...). The only thing I can think of is that people perceive the process as more complicated than it probably (assuming one starts with a kit). My own multi-year delay was due to procrastination... :^)
I'd love to DIY, but considering a life time of proven ineptness, I just can't afford it. All of my relatives are very handy, but that trait skipped me with a vengeance. I am a danger to both tools and materials.
And before you mention practice and the rest, lets just say I can barely change a faucet, and when I have it involved a great deal of time, sweat and vulgarity. I'm not about to destroy NOS tubes, an old idler wheel tt, etc.
Something like "A man's got to know his limitations", I believe it was. You're a lot like me. Home repair projects are best left to those more qualified here.
I do some building, tweaking, upgrading on my own hi-fi equipment, because the electronics side comes easier to me than the mechanical.
Still, mistakes happen. The other night I was in a hurry (big mistake!) and grabbed the wrong clip lead. What I thought was a 6 volt lead was actually 260 volts DC. It gave me quite a jingle, and really got my attention to SLOW DOWN!
So not only could you destroy NOS tubes, but easily stop your heart with one wrong move. That's a lesson which was reinforced for me the other night.
To be fair, that is the first time I've ever damaged a cartridge, but still...point proven.
I just hate the idea of nice stuff being destroyed needlessly, especially with some things becoming rarer and rarer.
300B SET amps, Akido-based preamp, Cornet phono stage, Fostex backloaded horn speakers
Also like your system, I have DIY acoustic panels, bass traps, cables, and ICs
The solder fumes may have made me a bit twitchier but I like the sound a lot
Musical Fidelity A3.5 integrated amplifier.
This integrated has what I was after for the money I could afford at the time: Enough power, fairly neutral, plenty of inputs, a pre-out for the subwoofer, and the ability to try out preamplifiers in the future (running as a power amp).Dynaudio Contour S1.4 stand-mounted loudspeakers.
They have the sound I was looking for and were just outside my financial reach so I was able to eventually afford them. (I was ready to buy the Focus 140 speakers but really preferred the sound of the S1.4.) I had to save a while longer and do without a while longer but they were worth it. They fit the acoustic space very well and ramped my listening experience up quite a few notches.Tom
Edits: 04/15/09 04/15/09
I used to run an MF/Dyn combo. LOVED it.
Tom
The Audiomat Prelude Ref has the muscle, drive, rhythmic grip and nasty ol' stank of a good Brit sand-amp with lovely fire-bottle texture, finesse, color, flow, and downright spooky presence. It's a real Beauty and the Beast kinda amplifier.
J.M. Reynaud Offrande have a rare balance of warmth, detail, ambiance and energy. I use an ACI sub when the mood strikes, but these stand-mount monitors have surprisingly solid in-room bass down to mid-30Hz.
I'm into both of these French beauties for the Long Haul.
"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
Have you ever had any problems with the Audiomat? From what I've read online, seems like people like the amp much better than the North American distributor. I've been curious about it, but considering the gripes I've read about the distributor I've stayed away. Do you get your replacement tubes from Audiomat? They, like some others, seem rather insistent that owners get replacement tubes directly from them.
The only EL34 integrated I've heard at any length is the VTL, which is the opposite of your description.
No problems here. I've had the amp for around eight years, and it's been 100% from day-one. I know several other Audiomat owners who've enjoyed the same reliability.
I've heard the stories about their US distributor, Mutine, but the few times I've emailed them with a question, they've replied promptly and at length. I've also talked with their West Coast service tech Nick Gowan, and he was friendly and informative as well.
Despite the company's insistence on using their proprietary tubes, I'm on my second set of off-the-shelf EL34s - currently quad-matched SED (Svetlana Electrical Devices) Winged-Cs. They sound wonderful, and compare favorably to the Audiomat-badged tubes. I'm still running the three original factory-supplied NOS Sylvania 12AX7 phase inverter/driver tubes, which are said to last for a good 20K hours.
I can highly recommend Audiomat amps for their wonderful musical and sonic performence, as well as their solid build quality, reliability, and support. I've yet to hear another amp, at any price, that tempted me away from the Prelude, and I worshipped at the SET altar for many years before being bowled-over by the Audiomat's rhythmic prowess.
"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
If I ever am able to get into tubes, I want something reliable and which doesn't munch tubes all the time. But I also don't want to take any steps backwards to make gains in other areas. Sounds like the Audiomat should be on my list. Thanks.
But we're house-hunting. If I have to put the system in a small room, I'll probably switch to a near-field set-up.
I use headphones 99% of the time anyway. The cans are Sennheiser HD-600.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
Edits: 04/16/09
Jadis pre and VTL monos (definitely overkill) driving big horns in the main system
and
EAR 859 driving Altec Model 19s for the shack in the boonies
.
nt
.
nt
reelsmith's axiom : Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Really love the work by John Hillig at Musical Concepts and the mating w/ the B&Ws. BTW, John also built my preamp (Musical Designs).
Power amp is all DHT Triode tubes, with an input 30 tube, R-C coupled to a 245 Driving Push-Pull 245 Output tubes with an Interstage Transformer. Very fast, detailed, holographic sonics are the result. Most of the time, I'm at the workbench, listening thru Norelco full range 8s (AD-4877 with the huge magnet). However, there's another pair of the same amps at the main listening area, driving Altec, furniture grade cabbed, "small" A-7 Voice of the Theatre speakers...
And I've been kicking myself ever since. My excuse was it would have been a 2000 mile round trip drive to a friend's house to get them. Still, I'm sorry I didn't.
Nice system there, IT!
With an MX110 or C20 as pre. Was using a pair of MC225's bridged to mono but decided I didn't need the power.
I auditioned Klipschs back in the late 70s, and decided the Cornwalls were the best of the lot to my ears. I never did get a pair. Being a musician meant putting most of my money into musical and recording gear.
.
tube monos and Martin-Logan Clarity hybrid ESLs. I also use a PS Audio 100C when it is too hot for the tubes.
MC-275
Vandersteen 2CE
;^)
n/t
and I'm proud of it! Would you believe a room treatment?
;^)
I use Odyssey Mono Extremes in the glass cieling mode to drive their best speakers. If the room were bigger (mainly wider) i'd probably own a pair of 3.6 Maggies. The Odyssey speakers have extremely tight bass, and seem to go down into the very high twenty Hz region.
In my bedroom there's a pair of Wave Eights with upgrades driving a pair of Dennis Had built Soliloquys. I'm kinda in the market for a 25 watt killer amp (tubed of course), but where's the money comming from I just don't know right now.
gary
Gary
Understatement with style...
pete
Thanks Pete. I've always been a tube guy, so going to a sand amp had a bit of a stigma for me. It would be like if I gave up riding Harleys for a BMW or a Honda. "Form follows function" and all that, but you know what tube guys egos are like.
But the F1 grabs a hold of the Horns, and won't let go. While auditioning the speakers I heard them with maybe five different amps. An OTL 6BQ5, and a 2A3 SET among them. But the First Watt F1 really impressed me. Go figure.
I bought the speakers and drove them with a Dynaco ST-70 with the VTA input stage, and they sounded great. But when an F1 came along, I grabbed it, and haven't regretted it.
Thanks again for your nod!
You're not kidding!
Your F1's are 'current drive' amplifiers which are uniquely suited to work with full range single drive speaks. With the Horns it's a match made in heaven.
I read (above) that you're thinking of building an SET amp for the speaks. They will work but you may be disappointed initially by the match. Before you give up try the next higher impedance tap on your OPT.
For example - an 8ohm driver is typically driven by the 8ohm tap on the OPT. This works well for speaks with internal crossovers and multiple drivers. But for your single driver Horn's, try the 16ohm tap. That may open the sound up to be more like your F1's.
It's all in the flavoring...enjoy!
Pete
I've done that with other speakers in the past, but never with the Horn Shoppe Horns. I'll give it a try.
Thanks!
J
... And a Yamaha CX830 preamp. That's in the living room. My studio setup, where I also use vinyl, has a McIntosh MA5100 integrated amp & Bang & Olufsen Beovox MC120.2 speakers.Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
Edits: 04/15/09
/
preamp is a Conrad Johnson.
On Saturday May 2nd I will have a pair of EV Georgians. I am not sure of the amps or preamp I am going to use with them yet, but I am excited to get them. Not even sure where I am going to set them up. Once again I will see just how understanding (or tolerant) my wife can be.
.
... you can have my left arm before you take the GCC-250 from me! I LOVE the X-718's but after hearing the BE-718's I hope to own a pair one day...
... hardly a duplicate among the respondents.
relaxed w/ detail
nt
Jim
"Kindness is in our power, even when fondness is not" -- Samuel Johnson.
Audio Note Kit 1
Audio Note Kit L3 Phono Stage
Lowther acousta PM6C
Loathe as I am to admit it, the Arcam seems to have an easier time with the Snells (or the Meadowlark Hot Rod Kestrels I briefly borrowed) than the Dynaudios. I may end up selling the Dyn's in favor of something easier to drive, but better than the Snells. The Snells are a fun $260 though.
-
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
I have heard and love SET's and find them superior to push-pull, but the cj is a wonderful real world compromise with real grunt and power with tube magic.
The summits are a ball. It is great to have real bass power back in the equation with open midrange and highs.
Very happy camper here!
I bet that is a great sounding system.
Thanks Records,
Seriously, I am extremely satisfied.
I am 99.9% sure I am done.
If you ever make it to the Great Land, stop by for a listen.
cheers, Steelhead
see link:
...regards...tr
DIY 300b SET for the DIY 2 way, JBL 2118 with a Morel MDT33 tweeter. BGW SS amp for the JBL 2231 subwoofers.Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/15/09 04/15/09
Well, for now I have the Music Hall Trio, Bellari VP530 preamp and AV123 X-series speakers and ULW-10 subwoofer, which is a pretty nice sounding system. But, anyday now I'm expecting the Outlaw RR2150 so I can be in the same class as the big boys.
Dynacos are circa '69-'70. Found the pair at thrift for $5 a year ago or so. Just needed a li'l TLC to restore wood cabs. They live up to their reputation.Inspection sticker on back of M-4 says '79. Lights on the M-4 push button switches are burned out but don't buther me cuz it sounds great! The preamp above is a Yamaha C-70.
Outlaw LFM-2 subwoofer. (Smaller of the two pictured, but performance exceeds it's size!)
Jim
"Kindness is in our power, even when fondness is not" -- Samuel Johnson.
Edits: 04/15/09
Magnepan MMGs modified to within an inch of their lives...
Removable grills double as diffusers...
Pass Labs X-250...
"dammit"
Modest but overachieving tube integrated--Onix SP8
Modified Dynaco A25 speakers
Mirage MS12 subwoofer
Connected with Jon Risch recipe speaker cables.
Love the synergy between the amp and Dynacos.
"Opera is when a guy gets stabbed and instead of bleeding, he sings." Ed Gardner (1905-63)
Almost forgot to post mine.....
Airtight kt88 SE into Acoustic Energy Ae2.
Nice in smallish space, looking into fullranger/fieldcoil land, though...
housepet in a box ©
Jeez! A ghost.......
Okay, I'll play: Dynaco st35 and Altec 2-way, with 802D/811/414.
Good luck.
Milo
Forte's have updated crossovers and tweeters. Lovely sound.
My Forte's have updated crossovers and tweeters also. The A21 is overkill but I think that allows it to run in class A most of the time driving the Fortes.
Regards,
Todd
Did you do the restoration yourself? About 10 years ago I restored a 2230 and it made a huge difference. Around here, before internet stores were so common, the hardest replacement parts to find were the light bulbs! It needed no cosmetic parts so I didn't have to face the nightmare of finding those. I sold it about six months after the restoration. STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! While I love my Pioneer SX780, there's just something about those old Marantz components that sets my heart aflutter LOL.
The restoration was done by Bob Bowdish of irebuildmarantz. Here's a link that will tell you what was done, and a pic of the finished product:
Both are fairly new but I'm digging the combo. The PSB's are imaging champs!
I have one, see profile, and love the phono stage MM of course.
I "imagine" your general sound is similar to mine, with my Whatmough 303's and 12 in sub. The Whatmoughs have Audax components and Scanspeak Revelator tweet in MTM configuration, with 92 dB sensitivity.
Hey docw,
I when I got the Kandy I compared the phono stage to my Hagerman Bugle and decided to keep using the Bugle. There was a serious rolling off of the highs with the Kandy and I haven't had time to figure out why it's happening.
-Bry
not sure why, mine isn't really rolled off but I need to fool around and try this and that also. Someone may loan me a MF LPS and I need to try my old stuff's sections compared.
Model 4A power amp and Forte Model 2 preamp.
Opus
?
Opus
nt
Now have Quad with a Rogue Atlas beefed up for the Quads. Looking for another UA1 pair just to have around and maybe to play jazz!
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll
Sunfire Cinema Grand - Amp
Pioneer Elite SC-05 - Preamp
Creek Audio OBH-15 - Phono Pre
Music Hall 7.1 Turntable
Paradigm Eclipse Mains
.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
Forte model 4a amp, Audiophysic Yara speakers. For now that is....
I'll bite... its in my profile but:
BAT VK-300xSE integrated amp (using External phono pre however)
Totem Hawk speakers
I'm pretty space constrained and this plays very nice for my room.
NT
Pre-Amp is ARC SP-11MKII
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