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that the turntable delivers, mmmmm how should I say it "In Your Face". Nothing held back in the grooves. If so my Garrard 301 delivers in bucketfulls. Coupled to my DIY CV181/ECC32 valve phono and 2A3 push pull amp this would have to be the best system I have heard by a country mile.
OLLY
Follow Ups:
I never understood PRAT, or lack thereof, until one day I was at a high-end audio store and someone put "Dark Side of The Moon" on a $10K Avid TT, with a $4K arm, and $3K cart, driving some $40K of electronics into $40K+ speakers.I've listened to DSOTM at least a few hundred times in the past 30 or so years, but I never experienced it like this. The music seemed propelled by an unstoppable, unflinching, and unwavering force. Every beat of every instrument fell exactly in the right place. There was no hesitation in timing or dynamics. It was in your face, clear, and unmistakable, from the first few seconds. It was the difference between a locomotive and a car. In fact, a locomotive is the mental image that came to mind while I was listenig. The locomotive is powered by a massive engine, has huge momentum, and is "tied" to the tracks. Its movement is authoritative, steady, and predictable. The car, on the other end, has less power, momentum, and car "waver" a bit on the road. With a car, you don't have the "predictability" and consistency and power of a locomotive.
Another mental image is that in a system with a lot of PRAT, the system seems in charge of the music and dictates the tempo and dynamics. The system does not take any "crap" from the music. It does not slow down, or waver, it pushes the music regardless of its complexity and demands, and gives it no pause. In a system with less PRAT, the music sometimes seems overwhelms the system, it's like a weak manager/conductor losing some control and accepting less than perfect performance.
When I got home I put DSOTM on my system and the contrast was, unfortunately, obvious. It sounded very good, but did not have the authority and unstoppable/unwavering timing and dynamics I had experienced a couple of hours before.
In retrospective, I would have loved to have listened to that TT/arm/cart with lesser electronics/speakers to see how much of the PRAT was the turntable's doing.
Hope this helps.
Alberto
I too have heard precisely what you describe, but from the SACD of Dark Side of The Moon. It's a, literally, thrilling experience to hear that driven, compelled delivery, particularly in the bass. Exactly as you describe, it feels as though a tremendous and inflexible force is compelling the loudspeakers to obey - and in my experience this is exactly where this effect comes from. It's not the source, it's a question of sheer unadulterated power from the amplifier and a perfect match with the loudspeakers.
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Cheers
William
I've never heard the Diva but the Avid Volver and Volver Sequel have great PRaT too - far better than some of the North American high mass tables.
The Avids make the paceless fatties from VPI, Basis, Clearaudio, Sota, and Teres sound like their belts are slipping and their bearing oil has long since dried up : )American (and German) TT designers could learn a lot from the Brits.
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nt
Hi OllyIts not quite in your face, though Linn and Naim which pushed this concept had systems which were very forward
Its pace rythmn and timing
In its a combination of musical drive, an unravelling of musical lines which makes the various msuical/instrumental interplay more obvious or self-evident, and musical timing of the instruments, such that they all seem to be playing with the same metronome, with their attacks and comings ins and going outs preternaturally combined.
When you hear a system with and without it you can hear it straight away
Something vinyl seems to do very well, even in basic sytems, and CD in only great systems, in my experience from the past
But everything has to be working together, which i suppose is why linn/naim worked so well with this, as everything was designed to go together. I personally find Naim stuff a little too much this way, and their systems doesn't allow music to breathe and have "pause", but this is just a personal view
I am glad you have achieved this
I find DD TTs and Rim drives also have PRAT, no slow down in the loud or dynamic passages.
I find my BD doesn't unravel musical and rythmic lines quite as well, though haven't heard VPIs which apparently have PRAT in spades, so maybe not a function of the drive mech, but implimentation
But was only when I got a rim drive did I really understand what PRAT was!
Hi DDYou seem to have a good grip on the Niam Lin character. The reason I do not enjoy Niam's gear is because the tone (tonal character which includes harmonics and ambience) is not there. Perhaps I am too much of a tube guy.
You wrote: "though haven't heard VPIs which apparently have PRAT in spades"
I have not heard a VPI system that has PRaT. They do have big sound stage and the biggest bass and all other great audiophile qualities. It is a good TT if that is the style of sound you are after - VPI owners (flames not necessary)
PRaT has to be the most redundant term used in audio. Why? because Pacing IS Rhythm IS Timing. They are similar terms for the same thing, DYNAMICS or Drive.
Dynamics means how fast and accurately the playback hardware responds to the dynamic contrasts of the software (LP).Just my $.02
Henry
> > > "Pacing IS Rhythm IS Timing. They are similar terms for the same thing, DYNAMICS or Drive."I've heard many examples of an audio component that had amazing dynamics but couldn't play its way out of a wet paper bag in terms of PRaT. In fact, this is so common that I consider it to be a defining characteristic of American "high-end" audio.
Timing is about stability, rhythm describes a natural, non-mechanical bounce and flow, and pacing is an unremitting sense of forward motion or drive, but of course these are only vague descriptions - talking about music is like dancing about architecture.
A lot of CD players are extremely well-timed, but many of them can sound lifeless when it comes to pacing, and especially rhythm.
I've also heard many TTs that had good rhythmic bounce, but poor pacing. My Gyro is a good example: Good timing, excellent rhythm, but only average pacing. The inclusion of a cartridge, tonearm, and phono stage that are pace-y in the extreme has helped, as has a good TT PSU upgrade, but it will never have the relentless pacing of something like a Roksan Xerxes X.
As another example, a lot of people at VA seem to think the Technics DDs have good pacing, but I have to disagree. I have one in my system right now, and it has great timing, pretty good rhythm, and only fair pacing.
If there are two terms that might be considered synonymous, I'd say timing and pitch stability are fairly interchangeable; I don't see how you could have one without the other. Timing, rhythm, and pacing work together, but you can definitely have a component that preserves one and distorts the others to a greater or lesser degree.
Henry
Your statememt is plainly wrong.Problem one:
Pacing is NOT Rhythm, Rythm is NOT Timing.
You can play same Rhythm with different Pace and different Timing. It definitely has nothing to do with dynamics.So many players play the same tune, tyey use same Rhythm but it is usually Pacing and Timing tha defines each performance (in combination with dynamics etc.)
Problem two:
PRAT is not just literal summation of the three. PRAT is more than what definition of the three individual items suggest. It is a complete phrase used to describe specific phenomenon.
It is incorrect to stick to a definition of the three items alone to try to define PRAT.
Example: if I say that someone's statement is "bull shit", I do not think that anyone will suggest that my statement is not correct since the statement can not be shit, even less bull's. It is just group of words whose combination describe something completely different than what constituting words alone would suggest.
Cheers
William
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