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Through 50+ years of collecting, I have a fair number of warped LP's and 45's. In addition to that, about 1/3 of my 160 12" vinyl V-Discs from WW II are warped from decades of poor storage, prior to my acquiring them. So I could easily justify buying the Vinyl Flat and Groovy Pouch, which was delivered yesterday.
For the first attempt at correcting a warp, I selected a badly dish-warped Robert Gordon 12" three song EP. Unusual in that side A plays at 45 RPM and side B plays at 78 RPM. Barely playable at 45 RPM, bad stylus jumping and unplayable at 78 RPM. Disc weighs four ounces/ 110 grams. I used the large felt rings with center holes.
First attempt: Cooking in Groovy Pouch for 1 hour, 45 minutes cool down. Result: No discernable effect, still badly warped.
Second attempt: Cooking for 2 1/2 hours, cooldown 45 minutes. Result: No discernable effecct, still badly warped.
Third attempt: Cooking overnight total of 10 1/2 hours, 1 hour cooldown. Result: Success! Disc is flat (not perfect, but close) and will playback without issue. No sign of groove damage from overheating during the 10 1/2 hour cycle.
So, I'm happy and encouraged by success with my first attempt.
Follow Ups:
The instructions are overly conservative - it actually takes about 2 hours for the temperature between the felt mats (when sandwiched between the plattens) to get to a steady state temperature of ~54C. When deciding on the temperature setting (assuming you have the new pouch as opposed to the original which was only "On" or "off"), you should stick the thermometer between the felt mats and check the temperature reading after 2 hours or so - you may find you want to drop the setting down compared to the setting you choose if you follow the method in the instructions.
If the measured temperature is above 60C and held for several hours (overnight), there is a risk of damage to some thinner vinyl formulations - I have lost a handful of discs this way. You get a shiny appearance to the surface and pitting. I have also had distortion of the outer edge (the original felt mats were a smaller diameter than a 12" disc - going only to the groove area not the outer lip). The newer oversized felt mats solve this problem - the felt provides a barrier to direct heating from the iron platten which is what caused the damage. I therefore recommend you choose a setting that goes no higher than 54C which is sufficient to take the disc temperature to the heat deflection temperature, hold for 2 hours then cool - this gives a heating phase of no more than 4 to 5 hours plus 2 hours cooldown. I use a Smart Switch and set the timer to 5 hours.
In Summer I would suggest no more than 4 hours for the heating phase to be safe depending on the ambient temperature in the room.
I would recommend allowing at least 2 hours cooldown for the plattens to get back to ambient and for the disc to have settled into the new shape.
Best results are obtained when you don't try to force the flattening in one hit - the reason is that the plattens are not the same mass and for a dished record it is better to initially start to push down the centre with the higher mass "Top" platten then flip the record over to push down the outer edges. I have both the original plattens and the newer design and the plattens aren't perfectly flat! The process relies on the felt having a certain "give" to even out the variation.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
A year ago, when I purchased a new Groovy Pouch, I could not figure out how to use it and how to control the temperature because the supplied digital thermometer automatically switched off after 10 minutes! Then I purchased a new thermometer which does not switch off automatically, so it works. I set the selector switch to 'medium' and wait until the temperature reaches 57-58C, then cool it down. The first cycle usually takes 2 hours, but sometimes it reaches 57C sooner and I switch it off.
The new modification of the Groovy Pouch requires utmost care, while with the older one, I could leave it for 6-8 or hours without any damage to the record grooves.
then into the wall. I have since purchased a timer in case I forget to monitor the pouch.I have been trying to purchase the Groovy Ring Replacement Pack off the Vinylflat website, but the Pack never shows up in the cart. I use Mac products only and wonder if that is the problem. I will call the company tomorrow.
I haven't used the system yet, but I do have two victims lined up. I was a previous user of the oven method between two sheets of heavy glass. I was 25% lucky before I stopped. It was too difficult to control the oven temperature.
Flood2, I really appreciate all of your experiences and those of bruckner9 with the vinylflat. I printed out many of those posts a few years back and placed them in my vinylflat box.
Edits: 07/15/20
In my opinion, the older Groovy Pouch is safer - you can leave it overnight without any problems, but it is still better to avoid it.
nt
My pleasure - I'm glad that the information is useful to someone!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Why not just buy the felt from a fabric shop and cut it yourself? It will be much cheaper!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
nt
Thanks for the input and tips Anthony.
I'm a little confused on the different Pouch models that are out there. My Groovy Pouch features only an on-off switch with no means of adjusting or setting temperature. I assume it's the latest and current design as I ordered it less than two weeks ago. As long as it works, I'm OK with it.
Using a meat thermometer probe sitting on the center of the top platten (has been on for over 1 hour), I'm getting a readout of 59C. Which seems about right. Lacking the means to fine tune the pouch heat output, this appears to be what I have to work with.
I couldn't initially use that thermometer because it automatically switched off after 10 minutes, so I purchased a new one which does not switch off automatically.
Sounds like there are now 3 variants!
The original pouch was similar to what you have probably except there was no switch - you just plugged in a 12V DC plug pack and relied on the tolerancing of the PTC element to control to a temperature. The temperature range due to tolerancing was quite wide. Yours is on the higher side of things - sticking the sensor on the top of the platten tells you the element temperature but it will take at least 2 hours for the vinyl disc to get to the required temperature - if you stick within a 4 hour heating window, you will be safe but I strongly advise caution on extending the time beyond 5 hours in Summer.
For potato chip warping, you will need several goes with various combinations of the full size mats and the rings (with the label area cut out) and swapping sides. If done in one hit or incorrectly, you can flatten the edge, but the warp becomes a ripple so your cartridge still jiggles up and down furiously! I've sacrificed more than a handful of discs to work out the best approach.
Since it is rare (in my experience) for new discs to be perfectly flat, I use the VinylFlat as a matter of course after cleaning a disc before it is played.
The Pouch I got last year plugs straight into mains - it is a modified version (no auto-off timer) similar to the Sunbeam heating pad with a 3 position switch for low, med, high. It is 12x24" with velcro strips on 3 edges so that you fold it in half to enclose the VinylFlat. The standard version in the link has an auto-off feature (that can be disabled by opening up the controller and disabling the link to the timer circuit) - the instructions are easily found on Google. DISCLAIMER: For anyone reading this, DO NOT attempt modification as it could result in an electrically unsafe product and may cause serious harm if done incorrectly!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
My second try at fixing a warp was this mid-70's reissue of "Out Of Our Heads." Bought new so the vinyl was essentially NM until I left it in my car parked in sun about forty years ago, resulting in an edge warp making tracks A1 and B1 unplayable.
For this record, I gave it a two hour cook. Took it out after cooldown and the warp is 95% fixed and close to flat. Plays and tracks without issue. However, it appears that it may have been in the Groovy Pouch a bit too long as minor 'orange peel' is evident. Not a big issue as it only create a faint 'whoosh' between tracks, not intruding on the music.
For the next try, a Bob Marley LP that suffered the same fate as the Rolling Stones LP it was in the car with, I'll start at 60 minutes, which is the manufacturer's recommendation. I can see that various records will react differently, after all the Robert Gordon EP showed no sign of heat damage despite 10 1/2 hours cooking.
I'll put it in around 6 pm and take it out when I get up the next morning.
Let it cool down for another 12 hours.
It doesn't always get the LP perfectly flat but it does a great job.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Are you using the original pouch with the 12V plug pack? Those had quite a wide range for the controlled temperature (PTC element), so what works for you may be dangerous to the vinyl for someone else. It sounds like your pouch could be on the cooler side.
I used to do similar to you with heavyweight vinyl (mainly because I forgot to turn it off!). Then I found some formulations were badly damaged - I lost about 3 records around Xmas time which was annoying because I hadn't even played them!
Unless you have measured a representative temperature between the rings for what temperature the vinyl would be exposed to and know that it is no higher than around 54°C or so, then the overnight duration should be safe. Otherwise, I would recommend that the temperature be measured between the rings after at least 2 hours (because that's how long it takes for the plattens to heat up to steady state), then make the decision as to the maximum time. I suggest even then leaving it for no longer than a further 2 to 2.5 hours after steady state (for a temperature around 54°C). If the temperature is nearer to 60°C, I would keep the time shorter to no longer than around 2 to 2.5 hours in total, before cooling down.
In practice you only need to take the record near to the heat deflection temperature to reset the shape so leaving it for long periods is actually unnecessary unless the pouch temperature is cooler than 54°C.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
another Inmate mentored me, recommended 12 hours in the pouch followed by a 12 hour cool down. I sent him a badly warped LP that he flattened for me and I bought the Vinyl Flat/Groovy Pouch at his recommendation.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
As I pointed out, the time required depends on the vinyl weight, the formulation and specifically where your pouch temperature sits in the range for temperature and what the ambient temperature is.
Whether, like John Elison, you assume I am providing (mis)information is entirely up to you and doesn't bother me in the slightest! However, I wouldn't advise anyone to blindly follow a recommendation without further study and consideration of the risks.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
That's exactly what I did with the older Groovy Pouch model, but nevertheless, I always watched that the first session does not exceed 5 or 6 hours.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be
Hot enough to boil a monkey's bum?
Like Chuck Noll used to say, whatever it takes.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Yours may be more sever than any of mine so I need to give it a try too.
My worst have what I call a lip curl, meaning the outer edge has a flip, like it sat under excessive vertical weight. But a few others with a large bow affecting half the record as well.
Is there a directory of terms for describing different types of warps?
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
I know the sort you mean - those are tricky to flatten without introducing small ripple in the playing area. Lip curl? Potato chip? I think of Pringles....
Intuitively you would start with the lip sticking up and use the top platten to force the lip down. I prefer to start in reverse. You can certainly start that way, keep the heating phase within 4 hours or so. Then flip the record over for a second cycle - that should be enough to flatten it out almost perfectly. If the disc overheats (as some of mine did), the disc appears to have deformed such that where the lip was the cartridge jerks outwards at that point and you will hear a background "hash". Hence why I suggest being more conservative with time and doing several goes rather than one intense cycle which risks heat damage.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Working on Bob Marley "Rastaman Vibration", which got warped along with the Stones LP from sitting inside my car 40 years ago. Bad edge warp rendering tracks A1 and B1 unplayable.
First cook at 60 minutes - very slight improvement. Can play one side without skipping, other side skips and is still unplayable.
Second cook at 80 minutes. Some improvement, but still getting skipping on the worst side.
Now started third cook set for 105 minutes. Will cool down later tonight and evaluate. Really hope to save this record. If I can just get tracks A1 and B1 to play without skipping I'll be a happy camper. The record was bought new so many years ago and is essentially NM but for the warp.
My Bob Marley record was baked for 105 minutes on the third round and that definitely worked. 95% of the warp is out, the disc is nearly flat and it plays beautifully. A very faint 'whoosh' on the brief intro to tracks A1 and B1 is aubible but otherwise it's returned to the NM condition it was in prior to getting warped. Two thumbs up for Vinyl Flat so far. Forty some years later and I'm finally playing this album and loving it!
If a faint 'whoosh' remains, I would stop baking it further in order not to aggravate it.
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