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In Reply to: RE: Yet another phono preamp . . . sigh. posted by Opus 33 1/3 on June 02, 2017 at 15:39:10
If you have the itch to upgrade your system again think about getting a nice reel to reel tape deck. RTRs are making a comeback and recording your LPs to a nice 15 ips deck would be a way to make your analog music convenient.
I have been considering another RTR and its been a lot of years since my last one. It would be a sweet addition to make your system a lot of fun to play with.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Follow Ups:
Sourcing music from an LP has its own obligatory and bothersome rituals, to be sure, but mounting and threading a tape reel on an RTR would seem to exceed them in terms of aggravation. Not to mention the costs involved. I think of RTR as more of a damn-the-torpedoes purist approach, if you can ever get the high quality tape recordings needed.
nt
True!
I'd like to find cut 6 on my RTR tape. Problem?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Even the initial cost of a reel-to-reel tape recorder is quite high these days. I'm sure you're looking at over two grand for a decent reel-to-reel and anywhere from $50 to $100-each for blank 10.5" reels of tape. If you can afford to copy vinyl to open reel tape at those prices, you're a whole lot richer than I.
The more economical option would be a thousand dollar TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder . It will actually provide better performance than open reel tape and it costs much less to operate. It records to inexpensive SD flash drives and you can store all your recordings onto inexpensive USB hard drives. Furthermore, TASCAM provides free editing software for mastering your recordings. On top of everything else, the TASCAM is an autonomous digital player accepting USB flash drives directly into its front-panel USB port. It will play WAV files up to 24/192 PCM and DSD files up to 5.6-MHz directly from an inexpensive USB flash drive.
Good luck,
John Elison
I bought a high res ADC long ago and replaced it with a TASCAM UH-7000 last year. It makes outstanding recordings but I was recommending something in the analog arena. I prefer PCM due to the easy editing once you have the samples in that format.
Yes, I am aware what blank tape costs from ATR and RMGI. Yes they cost around $50 or higher per reel but the tape quality for these new formulations is outstanding. From what I have read, in multiple sources, the overhead is much higher (compared to the best media from years ago) and distortion is very low.
I am intrigued by RTR recording once again and with the gradual resurfacing of these decks as high end components, some things should change. I exchanged emails with a business that refurbishes Otari MX 5050 II tape machines and I can get one of those refurbished, like new, for less than $2000.
The Otari MX 5050 II was a very good RTR deck many years ago when new and with the advent of better coupling caps and better record and playback heads, things could be very interesting.
I figure that I am spending $35 - $100 per pressing for high resolution heavy weight LPs, so the cost of RTR media is not a restriction. I used to love recording to RTR and I liked recording to cassette almost as much.
Handling RTR tapes takes care but everything worthwhile has some restrictions associated with it. I just recommended this to Henry because we all come from the same generation and I thought he may like the idea of getting back into analog recording.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
"If you have the itch to upgrade your system again think about getting a nice reel to reel tape deck. RTRs are making a comeback and recording your LPs to a nice 15 ips deck would be a way to make your analog music convenient.I have been considering another RTR and its been a lot of years since my last one. It would be a sweet addition to make your system a lot of fun to play with."
You suggest that he should get a reel-to-reel. Yet, you have not done it.
I'd also disagree that RTR's are "making a comeback", other than within a very tiny audiophile demographic. First of all, blank tape is not readily available conveniently at a reasonable price. Secondly, pre-recorded tapes are extremely limited and very expensive. Thirdly, putting a record on a turntable is easier than loading/threading/rewinding a tape. Prove me wrong.
:)
Edits: 06/04/17 06/04/17
No argument that reel-to-reel is the ultimate hair-shirt medium.
So why am I and most of my audiobuddy friends spending so much of our listening time with tape these days? Can't be just the hypnotic effect of those spinning reels, since one of the guys has his system so situated that you can't see the reels.
And there's no problem finding blank tape or recorded tape or tape machines if you know where to look. Ebay has more than 12,000 listings on any given day. Most of the tapes are dreck but there are enough that aren't to keep the tape fanatic's juices flowing.
Oh, and the prices have steadily headed skyward, so the niche must be getting ever so slightly more substantial every year. And more and more new-production tapes are appearing, along with at least the promise of new tape machines.
But the key is ... listening.
"So why am I and most of my audiobuddy friends spending so much of our listening time with tape these days? Can't be just the hypnotic effect of those spinning reels, since one of the guys has his system so situated that you can't see the reels.
And there's no problem finding blank tape or recorded tape or tape machines if you know where to look. Ebay has more than 12,000 listings on any given day. Most of the tapes are dreck but there are enough that aren't to keep the tape fanatic's juices flowing.
Oh, and the prices have steadily headed skyward, so the niche must be getting ever so slightly more substantial every year. And more and more new-production tapes are appearing, along with at least the promise of new tape machines."
*******
Not to be harsh or rude, but personal anecdotal experience isn't the same as a consumer trend. You and your personal friends are a small group with a special interest. There are "pockets" of similar folks around the world, but I don't see "non-audiophiles" buying reel-to-reel tape decks as a growing consumer trend.
With regard to available blank tape: A 10.5 inch 2400 foot reel of new blank tape is in the area of $60 (the last time I bought it, 10 years ago).
With regard to pre-recorded tape, the fact that there are "12,000 listings" on ebay on any given day would indicate to me that these tapes are being sold off in droves - by people who already own them. What is the typical selling price?: 50 cents or a dollar a reel? And let's not forget that high output tapes from the 1970s to early '80s are unreliable due to "sticky shed".
New "audiophile" recordings: I'd be interested to know how may hundreds or dozens of recordings were sold in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Got any stats?
********
Inmate51 wrote:
" My perspective is that maybe a few more aging audiophiles are buying RTR decks to relive their more youthful past, but that doesn't make it a consumer trend."
:)
I don't see "non-audiophiles" buying much of anything we talk about here.
Probably the bulk of Ebay offerings are (1) from folks who bought tapes at estate sales and the like and (2) older tape nuts who are amazed to see the prices they go for today and want to cash in.
Your idea of Ebay tape pricing is a hoot. I used to restrict myself to ones selling for under 20 bucks. If I wanted to sell the tapes I bought even 2-3 years ago I could make quite a bundle.
A brand-new 10 1/2" tape on a metal reel still goes for ~$60 bucks. Difference is it's much better tape now. And I buy them in pancake form for $40-45. Oh, and the sticky shed tapes-- admittedly a serious issue -- were the early generation ones with back-coating and not all of those. If you stayed with Maxell or TDK you could forget about sticky shed.
I KNOW I'm not talking about a "consumer trend." But things in open reel tape-dom are a damn site different than they were just 5 years ago, when you'd never see a tape deck at any audio show and never see them mentioned, pretty much routinely, in The Absolute Sound or Stereophile.
And, with respect, your Revox is a POS. I had one :-)
> And, with respect, your Revox is a POS. I had one :-)
You had one Revox and you probably screwed it up yourself. I owned two Revox A77's and both were exceptional performers. I also owned a Teac X-1000R and Revox was far superior. Revox is Studer's consumer line and it was always highly rated in reviews. In fact, that's the reason I bought it and I was very impressed with its performance. The fact that you badmouth Revox every chance you get convinces me that you're incapable of operating a high-quality tape deck. Having met you in person on at least two occasions only supports that conclusion. I say this with the utmost respect for Revox.
John Elison
I know all about about the Revox rep, which is why I had such high hopes for mine and spent so much time and money trying to make its reality match that rep. But finally had to admit it was a lemon. And its various built-in downsides -- RCA jacks on top of each other, ridiculous pinch roller location, pygmy meters, etc. -- didn't exactly endear it to me in the process. POS may be overkill, but compared to my Otari MX5050s it's a toy.
Studers are real tape machines. I'd love to have one. But spare me the Revox A77. AND the business about knowing my capabilities after a couple meetings at Ribfest (all honor to the memory of Mike and Barb).
"compared to my Otari MX5050s it's a toy."
Hahahaha! That's funny.
The Revox A77 has some annoying tape transport quirks, but it's audio capabilities and build quality are second to almost none, certainly not Otari. I worked with a pro Otari multi-track on a project many years ago. Can y'all say "gap scatter"?
I do NOT like the handle on the A77. I even took it apart and put epoxy glue on each end, but I still don't trust it.
Meters? Have you been to an eye doctor lately?
The thing I like about the consumer Otari 5050 is that it's cool-looking and has a lot of features. It beats the shit out of Pioneer or Technics. Not sure about Tascam - mine is still "down".
Having said all that, it'd be fun to have an Otari 5050, or another Studer/Revox machine. I love foolin' with controls. But, I can pin the meters on my A77, and it still sounds fine. My good friend, who's done high-end mods on the Studer A80, recently bought an A77. Huh. He assured me that it'll be mine when he's done f-ing with it. (Have I got that right?)
:)
The one thing no one here has mentioned is sound quality. I used to think my Teac X1000R was a good sounding machine and was very surprised to hear it soundly (sorry) beaten by a stock Otari MX5050 BII. It told me I had never come close to the real capabilities of tape. The good stuff: 15 ips, 2-track.Intrigued, I had it modded to enable direct tapehead output to a deHavilland 222 tubed tapehead preamp. Now we're really talking. And investigating the potential of master tapes via so-called "safety masters" was further evidence that I was on the right track.
But this left me with 50-60 Dolby tapes -- Barclay-Crocker mostly -- and the only thing to play them was my really old Teac A2300D (built in Dolby). So I was excited to see an ad for the final Mk IV version of the Revox A77 DOLBY. Aha, I could ditch the Teac because the Revox HAD to be superior to it, Right?
I found its "annoying quirks" less than endearing but this was all about sound, so I gave the Teac to my tape tech and looked forward to the sonic wonders the Revox was sure to exhibit (after I had the tech replace its bad caps and fix what had caused it to catch on fire).
Lo and behold, it didn't sound all that great. I didn't expect it to equal -- again, sonically -- the Otari but I sure thought it would whip the Teac which I sadly asked my tech to return for comparison. We both discovered that in my rather elaborate system (I don't call it "wretched excess" for nothing), the Teac sounded clearly better. So I kept the Teac and gave him the Revox. Yep, didn't get a cent for it.
Now all this is only my experience against lots of others who love their Revoxes.
I still think it's a toy :-)
Three other audiobuddies now have Otari decks (one has 4 of them but he's nuts) after hearing mine. They all record 2-track, play 2- AND 4 -track tapes, have switchable IEC and NAB eq, and quick-change headstacks. Try THAT with your Revox.
Edits: 06/07/17
It would be nice to have an IEC EQ'd Revox, since I have several tapes which I recorded in Switzerland.
Anyway, it sounds like you need to find a new Revox tech. Have you looked in Nashville?
Dolby? Seriously?
:)
Piece of cake to take your IEC-eq tapes (2-or 4-track) and make you an NAB dub* of them, if that would resolve your issue. Be glad to do it. For the record, I try to dub everything in the other direction -- NAB to IEC -- 'cause it sounds better to me that way. PM me with what you need if you're interested.
My never-fail tech, who deals with Revox decks routinely, definitely said "uncle" on this one. I's long gone, so Nashville isn't an option.
Dolby? Seriously? Are you asking why anyone would encode (Dolbyize) a tape in the first place? I would agree. Or are you saying that I should be able to play my (unfortunately) Dolbyized tapes on a non-Dolby deck and find the results satisfactory? No way. I've tried it more than once.
* The dubbing setup comprises identical Otari decks.
> For the record, I try to dub everything in the other direction -- NAB to IEC
That's about the most intelligent thing I've ever heard! Even if IEC EQ provides "perfect sound forever" it will still sound just like a NAB tape but with a 3-dB increase in the noise floor. Good thinking!
On the other hand, if the IEC dub truly sounds better to you, it just goes to show how much audible distortion your analog tape deck produces.
Isn't analog tape wonderful? ;-)
Thanks, I appreciate the offer. But I'm good to go.
A little adjustment on the ol' tone controls, and it's fine. What the heck - it's going through a stereo system anyway.
The thing about IEC EQ is that it doesn't mess with the signal as much, and lets you get a little cleaner signal on the original recording.
Besides, these are Ampex 406/407 and 456 tapes, so, I have to bake 'em just to play 'em. That's why I built a tape baking oven.
Re: Dolby. I use Dolby B to record/play cassettes because they need it. On the other hand, half-track RTR at 15 ips with my Revox with good tape?, no!
Anyway, it don't matter. I'm set, except for finding a good 1/4" 3-3/4 and 7-1/2 ips deck that I can play my old home tapes on.
:)
Not to sound like a total Otari fanboy, but I forgot to mention they also play 3 3/4 ips in addition to 7 1/2 and 15. 'Course you have to take the BACK off to get to the little switch enabling the slow speed, but some of us simply leave it off to simplify things.
Glad I didn't switch from Maxell when all those Ampex tapes were so popular.
Yeah, Maxell was my fave tape, followed by TDK. I only used Ampex in Montreux 'cause we had cases of it. I bought a few reels of 406/407 and 456 when I returned to Green Bay. Who'da thunk that, 20 years later, they'd be unplayable? But, as I say, I remedied that with my custom DIY tape baking oven, powered by two 100 watt bulbs on a dimmer.
:)
This is not a forum based on adversaries and if it were I would not bother returning.
Reel to reel is starting its comeback and manufacturers are just starting to make new RTR decks. New model decks are expensive but you can buy a fully refurbed Otari 5050 MkII for less than $2000.
The only source of good blank tape was ATR but that is about to change. RTR will never be as convenient as vinyl but once you mount a tape you have a very high quality source of analog music available. RTR was all but gone, like vinyl, but its managed to creep back where RTR decks are making a
showing at audiophile shows.
There was a time where audiophiles would copy their vinyl to RTR tape and the vinyl would collect dust. This was very popular in Japan and used vinyl in Japan is very high quality partly due to this habit.
The highest quality analog music was always from a RTR deck with vinyl coming in a very close second. In spite of high resolution digital, professional analog tape machines are starting to make a comeback in recording studios with analog masters being the source for high resolution backups. Digital sources can suffer from dropouts where analog backups have a very long shelf. They are very reliable and that is not lost on the recording industry.
The availability of extremely high quality pre-recorded tapes is the beginning of something that should drive down costs and drive up selection. It is not unlike vinyl around the turn of the millennium where pressing plants could be counted on your fingers. Now pressing plants are springing up around the globe and the production of new vinyl presses has begun. Vinyl is everywhere and RTR will follow suit.
RTR tape production is another matter but Chad Kassem created his production facility and his pre-recorded tapes are reported to be nothing short of fantastic. They are being used to show off very high end systems at high end shows like Munich. There were several vendors showing off their wears using RTR decks at that show. Yes they are very expensive but they are the single source for the highest quality audio available (short of the original studio masters themselves).
Interest in RTR decks continues to grow. Check out tapeheads.net or the RTR section over on audionirvana.org for a couple of places where RTR fans hang out. There is more going on than meets the eye and RTR should be more visible in the coming year.
I suggested this to Henry because I thought it may appeal to his audiophile interests. I did not think you had to have a RTR deck to suggest one. Where did this prerequisite come from?
I used to own one and would love to do it again. I plan to at the end of this year. Until then I will keep an eye on the market and make my buying decision based on budget and availability.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Oh, shush. ;)
Just to clarify, I've been a proponent and user of RTR for decades. My first RTR was a Roberts (Akai) 1719, quarter-track 3-3/4 and 7-1/2. Next was a Concord with auto-reverse (that deck was a mistake). Next was a half-track Tandberg. In about '78, I finally got a Revox A77 Mk IV, 7-1/2 and 15 ips, half track, which I still use.
I didn't buy any of these decks to record/copy LP albums or radio, they were all for doing live concert recording. 'Course, since I had them, I'd also record LPs, which could be convenient for long dinners. I actually have a 3600 foot reel, recorded at 7-1/2 ips, with six Vivaldi flute concertos on it. I figured if any girl could tolerate an hour and a half of flute concertos, she might be worthy of consideration. Ha!
Anyway, a 2400 foot (1.5 mil) reel, which is the "right" way to go, at 15 ips, only gives you about 32 minutes of time, which isn't even a typical LP album length. Ok, so record at 7-1/2 ips... now you've got 64 minutes. So, for a $60 reel of tape and the cost of the deck, you can record the entire album that you bought for $1 to $20. Why would a person do that?
Let's talk about studios. Yes, there are some retro musicians who want to record to tape, and studios which are happy to accommodate them. But the studios I've been in, in L.A. and SF, the Studers and the Ampexs are sitting in the corner, unused, while the recording is being done digitally.
In my view, the only reason for an audiophile to buy a good used deck is just for the fun of it - not for any real practical purpose - and only if they've got the money to support the habit.
You, personally, might perceive that RTR is making a "comeback", but where do you get that statistic? There are about 320 million (that's million, with an "m") people in the U.S., but I don't see or hear about RTR decks being produced and bought by the thousands. My perspective is that maybe a few more aging audiophiles are buying RTR decks to relive their more youthful past, but that doesn't make it a consumer trend.
Lastly, AA inmate mikel has promised to give me a Studer A80 when he's finished tweaking it. (Oh, wait, I might have dreamt that.)
:)
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