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I just finished assembling my new Vacuum Tube Audio SP14 preamp. Wow! This thing really really really sounds good. It definitely sounds better than my Pass Labs X1 control preamp. I'm truly impressed.
I ordered upgraded NOS Sylvania 6SN7 chrome-dome octal tubes and Mundorf silver-oil PIO output capacitors as well as a Khozmo remote volume control with digital display. Total cost for the kit was $1355. This is not a kit for beginners, but if you can assemble this preamp I think you would be hard pressed to find one that sounds as good for anything near its price. My Pass Labs X1 retailed for $5800 thirteen years ago and this SP14 is noticeably superior in sound quality. The SP14 sounds as good or better than any preamp I can remember hearing and I've been to 6 or 7 major audio shows. Anyway, I'm more than happy to say the least.
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n
Beautiful work!
I've always enjoyed your posts, John. I know from reading them you are a science-minded guy with an engineering background that likes to measure things. Can you explain what you're hearing (scientifically)?
No! Sorry! It just sounds exceptionally good to me. It sounds more realistic, more dynamic, more transparent and detailed than my Pass Labs X1. This preamp has a very low noise floor, too. It sounds as quiet as my Pass Labs X1, but I haven't measured either. The X1 is 13-years old. Perhaps it's performance has degraded over the years because the improved sound of my new SP14 is noticeable with every source to which I've listened.I would highly recommend the VTA SP14 preamp , even if you have to buy it fully assembled. It costs only $430 more fully assembled and I can't imagine anything sounding better for its price. The kit price is $920 plus $30 shipping. I added some upgraded parts to mine along with a Khozmo remote control volume, so my kit price was $1355 including shipping. It was well worth it to me.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 08/11/16
I bet your Pass components are superior to the tube equipment for all standard measurements. But as a tube guy, I agee that tubes just sound better, more realistic.
At the end of the day, we listen for enjoyment.
> I bet your Pass components are superior to the tube equipment for all standard measurements.
Yeah! I now think the Pass Labs X1 will easily measure better. In fact, I was wrong about the noise floor. It is higher with my tube gear, but I keep the input potentiometers turned down on my power amplifier so the tube noise is not audible at my listening position and it sounds just as quiet as the Pass Labs gear.
> But as a tube guy, I agree that tubes just sound better, more realistic.
That is definitely the impression I'm getting from tube components.
Thanks,
John Elison
From another thread you might find this an interesting read !
I read you like the sounds modifications that Piece produces.
And good reason to keep it.
But that in No way suggests that it's either more accurate or better sounding than the Pass gizmo.
You've found something that alters the sounds to either compensate for other system issues or at least bends the balance to your expectations.
You were even a 'dick' back in 2016.
Isn't that what this hobby is about?
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Hi John ,
Congrats! Can't wait for you to build the all tube power amp. You'll be in for a surprise w/ regards to the power , w/ a small compromise ( Bass not as tight as your Parasound ) but w/ a mids to die for.
Mondial
I just installed my new components in my audio rack and I'm so impressed with the sound that I'm in no hurry to replace my Parasound Halo A21. I think I'll savor the moment for a while. ;-)
You may be aware that Mike Kuller has been very happy driving his Thiels with Manley tube amps replacing a Pass Labs 350.
Nice job on the kit! I'll chime in on the kidding about tubes - what took you so long?
I can still remember how an Audio Research SP-3a elevated the musical experience for me back in the 70s. :)
Nice work John.
I really like the styling on that piece.
Glad to hear you are pleased and thanks for sharing.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I envy you that you can still build kit like this. My hands shake and even with medication there are days when I cannot even run a pencil and achieve legible results. Anyway, congratulations for a first class job. Almost 2 years ago I also switched to tube gear, in my case Conrad Johnson, and like you found the sound of tube stuff to be beguiling. I have no regrets at all and am sure you will be equally satisfied. Take care.
Bill
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Now you may have really stepped in it, John. So many 6SN7s to try now and so little time.
On the other hand, beautiful work and I had an idea when you first mentioned you were building it that you'd fall in love once done. The sound of a good tube pre design is really hard to beat.
Enjoy.
This is definitely a new adventure for me. I think I might have gotten some of the better 6SN7s on the first go-around. Anyway, I plan to listen to these for a while before beginning the tube rolling process.
I had no idea you were armed with a soldering gun. I have never attempted advanced soldering, and I am envious. Congrats on the work and the sound you achieved.
Yeah! I was a PMEL technician many years ago before becoming a mechanical engineer and I've always enjoyed soldering.
Great job John. I e-mailed this thread to a friend who was contemplating an SP 14 build. He e-mailed back this morning confirming the SP 14 was to be his choice. He's also had the advantage of hearing a friend's "assembled" SP14 in his system, so he knows it's a great fit. A think this thread was the final push though.
I'm sure your friend will be pleased with the performance of the SP14.
I'll throw in as well, great job for a DIY project John.
I've been watching your progress and updates for awhile now as well.
Aesthetically very nice with the brushed silver faceplate and knobs, usually not the case in DIY projects IMO.
Why not keep the pass labs and parasound gear and have the best of both worlds ( tubes and solid state) They are highly respected lines as you know. Just a thought.
Again congrats on assembling a fine piece of kit.
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
I plan to keep my Pass Labs and Parasound equipment. I was thinking about setting up two systems -- one tube and one solid state. ;-)
Not kits, but Dennis Had is building single ended pentode tube amps and selling them on the auction site. You can also contact him direct. With the right speakers they are excellent. Sonics way above the price point.
Your welcome, well earned, much deserved.
I've got a second tube setup going as well with a 845 set driving Verity Leonore. Pleases me to know your keeping the gear!
Keep us posted!!
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Sooner or later, you will discover type 76, then type 26, then 4P1L. Will slay any 6SN7 base preamp in any department (tone, dynamics, clarity) any time of the day.
Congrats on the build though, excellent job for a starter!
Or did you get 'em before your 76 preamp and then discover the 76 is much better? Just asking 'cause I'm coming from owning a 12AX7/12AU7 preamp and was planning on getting a 6SN7 output pre. I gather you'd advise me to look for a 76 pre.
Edits: 08/07/16
.... to remind me of my mistakes!!
No, 6SN7 type preamps are good, but there others much better. I still have the 6SN7 preamps for display. Owning a thing does not mean using them. Unfortunately, I am not as addicted to audio as before. I put my money on other things now as my audio gear sounds right to me already.
Am I suggesting 76 type preamp to you, are you asking? If so then yes. Better yet, find someone who's into the hobby with a preamp (76, 26, 4P1l, etc.) and listen to it or borrow it if you can then you will be able to relate what I meant. IMHO, no 6SN7 preamp can touch the DHT type preamps, any time of the day. If you do not want DHT tubes as the PSU needs to be quiet, extra cost and care, then the 76 IME is the closest to it.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
How would you compare Type 27 to Type 76? I've never heard the latter. 27s are VERY microphonic, which is one problem they do have.
Hi Lew,
I never experimented with the 27. On preamp duty, using 76, I have no problem with microphonics at all. I used to have a problem with a hiss but it turned out that it was from the grounding scheme. Once I figure it out, it never came back.
As for the tubes itself(76), I found Tungsol and National Union to be the quietest, old time US Navy the noisiest.
Abe
nt
You're welcome!
Abe
All I meant when I said 'big mistake" was that once you go tubes, there's no turning back.But since we are already here, then let me say it anyway. I have spent so much money and time on 6SN7 tubes. In fact I still have many VT231's,GT's, GTA and GTB's to prove it(Tungsol, Sylvania 6SN7Ws, KenRads,RCA, Bad Boys, CBS, etc.) No 6SN7 preamp can sound better than a DHT preamp in my opinion. You can see in my equipment list that I have a Supratek Chenin, a very good 6SN7 preamp with a killer phono section. In line level mode, it cannot touch the type 76 in dynamics, let alone the DHT tube preamps.
There, I bookmarked this thread. August 7 2016. We'll see how long before you discover the 76, 26, or 4P1L preamp and say that the 6SN7's can hold its own among them.
Edits: 08/07/16 08/07/16 08/07/16 08/08/16
Very nice build John. You rock....
It was a lot of work, but also a lot of fun! I'm just glad it came out sounding so nice.
I'm glad you are enjoying your efforts, and very nice build. If you like it now, you're really going to like it when it breaks in. Khozmo attenuators are a great choice, BTW did you pop for the naked Vishay and Takman version?
twystd
> BTW did you pop for the naked Vishay and Takman version?
Take a look at the pictures and the schematic and tell me what you think.
Thanks,
John Elison
I'll email you, don't want to hijack the direction of the forum.
twystd
I wouldn't trade my tubed EAR 864 preamp for anything I've ever heard, and I'm not surprised that you feel the same way about your new acquisition. Enjoy!
Since the tubes light up.
Your system is one of the best sounding vinyl systems I've ever heard, although I've heard it only through your Masterlink recordings. Therefore, I don't blame you for not wanting to trade in your EAR 864. You've reached a level of performance in your vinyl front-end that is right up there with the very best regardless of price.
Best regards,
John Elison
Your most welcome. Nice and tidy Work John!
I`m also a tube riaaa and Khozmo user.
Rgds Jan
I like the Khozmo remote volume. I looked them up on the internet and discovered they also make passive preamps at a reasonable price. Check out their website.
Is that a tube rectifier? What type?
Does the circuit use two 6SN7s per channel, with one for gain and one as a cathode-follower?
Thank for any response. Very nice and neat job.
I'm actually out of town at the moment and I can't remember the nomenclature of the rectifier tube. With respect to tube circuitry, I'm not very knowledgeable, but the circuit does use two 6SN7 tubes per channel. Here is the schematic for one channel:
Thanks much.
What's going on there is that, for the input stage, the top half of one 6SN7 serves as a plate load for the bottom half, which is acting as a typical triode gain stage, otherwise. Another way of describing it is that the top half acts as a sort of Constant Current Source, not a really stiff one but better than just using a resistor between the plate and B+. That stage feeds the second 6SN7, which does act as a cathode-follower to provide for a low output impedance, and the bottom half of that 6SN7 acts as a CCS for the CF, which linearizes the action of the CF. All good ideas, IMO. I bet it would indeed sound excellent. Moreover, you can tune it to your taste by rolling 6SN7s; they do each have a "flavor". The input stage tube would make by far the most difference, so you would only have to invest in one tube per channel. I love KenRad 6SN7GT, if plate voltage does not exceed 250V, which it probably doesn't do. Many others love Tungsol "round plates". YMWV.
nt.
Welcome to the world of tubes. Tha preamp looks like it was fun to build. Wait till it fully breaks in and you start to tube roll.
I took a leap of faith, about 15 years ago! I have a Decware SE84(upgraded & about 2 watts/ch!). I have the ZTPRE(Preamp- not the new one), I have the ZP-2.0 Phono amp. Speakers are the Decware RL-2, an older model. Really good Stuff.
I'd forgotten how much fun it is to build a kit. It brings back fond memories of my PMEL days. ;-)
You are making this look fun, John. I notice you have appraised the difference in sound between your Pass Labs X-1 preamp and this new one.
Yet I wonder if you can perceive one more observation?; Which is the more forward sounding between the two. Which one seems to have a quicker transient attack on the leading edge of sounds/notes than the other. In comparison would you call one more relaxed than the other?
This is a quality that I seem to be of a mind to compare.
The Vacuum Tube Audio kits are appearing to be of a very high quality.
Next proposition: If you go the tubed mono-blocks; will it become a step toward high efficiency speakers? I mention this because tube amps and horn speakers are often grouped together. It could be fun for someone with an inclination to tinker.
-Steve
> Which is the more forward sounding between the two.
I only listened for a couple of hours, but the tube preamp might be more forward sounding. I'm not sure, though.
> Which one seems to have a quicker transient attack on the leading edge of sounds/notes than the other.
The VTA SP14 seemed to have a quicker transient attack than the Pass Labs X1. The SP14 seemed to be more dynamic with greater clarity. I'd say the XOno was more relaxed and laid back than the SP14.
The SP14 just seems to sound better and more realistic.
Best regards,
John Elison
This will be a awesome sounding system! Once you go horns like the tubes, you never go back! :)
Congratulations on a really nice build. One small point: Mundorf Silver Oil is not a PIO cap. It is metalized polypropylene with oil sputtered into the winding and a tin/zinc end spray.
Hi Dave,
I don't really know much about exotic caps. I simply copied what was written on the VTA webpage as shown below. Thanks for the info, though.
Best regards,
John Elison
I've owned a couple of preamps that used the tube and only rare National Union 6SN7s, now practically unobtanum, floated my boat. All the rest were dull, dull, dull. Sweet looking preamp, though. enjoy.
Opus 33 1/3
I'm a tube novice so I think I'll stick with these Sylvania NOS chrome-domes for a while before looking for something better assuming there is anything better. These tubes sound fantastic to me so far. They are definitely not dull in the least. They are crisp, dynamic and very realistic.
Thanks,
John Elison
Opus 33 1/3
That's just what happened to me! LOL!
Agree on the NU's...one of the best sounding 6SN7's I've run across. Also liked the RCA 5692 quite a bit.
Then I ran across a real sleeper. Picked up a number of these on Ebay for cheap quite a while back, and quite frankly preferred them to either the NU's or RCA's. Used in Cary gear at the time, they were just the right balance for those circuits.
We better shut up before John starts thinking about the tweaking before he even gets it broken in. :)
for both your very neat assembly and discovery of the benefits of tube pre/line stages.
I've built several kits but simply have too much on my plate now to consider another one. So I'm in the process of ordering a custom version of Don Sachs' SP14. Your comments give me encouragement.
The choice of tubes VS SS for amps may be less clear cut. I expect it is both the speaker match and personal sonic preferences (as always). Not sure with your Thiels, and Parasound is one of the better SS in my opinion. Any chance you could borrow a powerful tube amp to experiment?
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
> The choice of tubes VS SS for amps may be less clear cut. Not sure with your Thiels, and Parasound is one of the better SS in my opinion.I understand what you're saying. However, many Thiel owners think they sound better with tube amplifiers. It might have to do with their flat impedance curve. I measured mine just after buying them and they had only a couple of humps below 60-Hz. The rest of the curve was flat to within plus-or-minus 0.5-ohms from 60-Hz to 23-kHz.
The only problem is delivering enough power to keep them going. I'm hoping the VTA M-125 monoblocks will provide enough power for my listening room. Otherwise, any tube amplifier with more power is probably out of my price range.Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 08/07/16 08/07/16
John, you know far more about electronics than I do, but I believe it is not just how flat the impedance curve but where it falls.
For years I owned Duntech Princess speakers. Their impedance curve dipped very close to 2 ohms in the range of both the woofers (2) and tweeter. That was a challenge for tube amps even though the curve was relatively flat. Two that seemed to work quite well with the Duntechs were the VTL 225 and 300 mono blocs, both more powerful than average for tube amps. But then I discovered the Parasound Halo JC-1s, a better overall match for my taste.
Your Thiels fall into that small group of speakers with time/phase alignment in design (include Vandersteen and a few others) which can be very revealing and that is the reason for my caution about a trial before building. Either way, good luck, I'm sure you'll be rewarded.
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
Dig my SP 14
Roy M / VTA make some nice designs
K.
I know you'll enjoy this one
Frank
....
Kind of Blue
In what ways does it sound "better"?
Glad it sounds as great as it looks.
is the Parasound going out the window now?
nt
This thing sounds awfully good with the Parasound Halo A21. However, I'm thinking of building a pair of M-125 monoblocks . I don't think I will discard the Parasound, though.
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
That a lot of tubes there homey.
: )
Nice, John! Love the aesthetic of the exterior -- clean, attractive, and classic. Beautiful construction job too. Except you have one of the resistors in backwards. :) :)
I still remember my introduction to tubes a long time ago. Bought a Counterpoint SA7.1 preamp, which was their bottom-of-the-line offering at the time (but all I could afford). From the first violin note that actually sounded like a real violin with all the harmonic structure and overtones and low level detail, I was hooked and have never looked back. Sure hope you enjoy yours as much!
And, I'm having great fun!
You nailed it down with a couple of sentence's. A wooden instrument sounds like a wooden instrument. Or I might use the human voice as a reference. Tubes are the real deal. Next step DHT's (OK really hard in a phono stage)
Enjoy the ride
Tom
All the bells and whistles too I see. I've been wanting to get into building for a while. I have all the equipment, just no time right now. I'll need to start simple and this looks a bit advanced for me, but I will be looking forward to your next build; maybe a phono stage. Take care, Gary.
Yes, I already completed the matching Vacuum Tubes Audio PH16 phono stage.
John,
Your build looks very nice!How is the phono stage that you built a couple of weeks ago sounding now that it has some hours on it?
The PH16 phono stage sounds very good, but not nearly as impressive as this SP14 line stage. I'm using a Bob's Devices 1131 SUT with the phono stage and that combination seems to sound better with my Denon DL-S1 cartridge rather than my new Audio Technica ART7. The Pass Labs XOno seems to sound better with the ART7.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Nicely done.
I'm convinced tube pre amps are the way to go.
Can't say that about power amps, but pres, oh yes!
ENJOY!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
You might be right about power amplifiers! My Parasound Halo A21 sounds simply wonderful with this SP14 preamp feeding it. ;-)
Best regards,
John Elison
when I auditioned and took home a Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 Signature. That Preamp was really nice and I regret getting rid of it. It had a all film cap power supply.
Then got into Audio Research and then Counterpoint preamps before coming across a great deal on the BAT VK-30 preamp.
The best system I heard til now was the BAT VK-5i preamp with the BAT VK-500 power and Vandersteen 3A's. Just so nice.
nt
I think my next project will be the M-125 monoblocks.
a lot of amp(s) for the $.
IF I had your talent/abilities it would be a go.
Haven't ever run an amp with any of those output tubes, but bet it takes that sweet to the next level.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
nt
That preamp has that Modified Akido circuit correct? I'm glad you are very happy and enjoying it.
I still just need to put my regulators in and make punch holes for the for the Octal tubes. This will be a nice match with the VTA-120 kit that will be coming in on Monday. But the BAT should be perfect for it too.
If I didn't already have the BAT VK-30 and Akido kit I would definitely got this preamp.
Enjoy!
> That preamp has that Modified Akido circuit correct?
I believe you're right! Whatever it is, it sounds fantastic! ;-)
Here's the schematic for one channel:
very quiet and sound nice!
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