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Hi Everyone:
I have a Rega RP3 with a factory installed Elys 2 cartridge and Groovetracer subplatter/Delrin platter upgrades. I recently bought a balancing shure scale, set the anti-skate to zero and balanced the to exactly 1.75 grams. Then I set the anti-skate to 1.75. Unfortunately, I had some tracking problems where the needle would occasionally not sit properly in the groove and there'd be distortion. I set the anti-skate using an old Shure Obstacle course test record, (basically just dropped the needle on the shiny track without grooves and adjusted the anti-skate until the stylus stayed in the middle of the track). but this tracking problem still rears its ugly head occasionally. Not as often though. Also on some of my Jazz LPs there'll be a buzz that accompanies the vibraphone tones out of the right speaker. Same thing occasionally happens with a really fat steel guitar sound at certain frequencies. To get the anti-skate working I had to push the anti-skate nob most of the way in. At 1.75, the anti-skate was way off on the Shure test record. I've read that Rega anti-skate's are inaccurate.
Any thoughts on how to correct this tracking problem? I've thought about increasing the weight from 1.75 grams, but I don't know how far to increase it before it starts damaging my records. I also don't know if increasing the weight would help this issue or not. Prior to getting the shure scale, my tracking weight was too heavy (can't remember how heavy though), but I don't remember having these problems.
If anybody has any suggestions, let me know. I'm getting a little frustrated here.
Follow Ups:
Fussing with a P5 made me realize how obsession should be relative to the gear.
If it were an uber table/cart playing mint original records, that's time to become ocd.
Mine plays $5 specials. Making adjustments that may be fundamentally "wrong"
yet sound acceptable is what I did. Just couldn't hear a difference in sound quality in my particular setup.Did the basics and a level/stable placement. If its wearing the stylus/record prematurely but I can't hear it, big deal. I started to obsess with an upgrade(VPI) then decided to just sit down and listen to the damn record! Setting compromise is around 1 on my P5.
Threads on Rega problems always seem to get both experienced advice and maybe not so conventional suggestions.
some of those Shure scales were made with an arm which can attract the magnet in the cartridge. I have both a new and an old one...the old one is fine...non attractive. Also, you will get a more accurate indication if you use the Shure at the edge of the platter with the 2 "feet" hanging off.
Okay, so the buzz in the right channel has been solved. Turns out that where the speaker wires plug into my Dynaudio DM 2/5 speakers, there was a loose plastic nut that was rattling. Yeah, I know - a rookie mistake. But hey, I'm a rookie.
Now, this should make it easier to dial in on my tracking problem where the needle gets partially out of the groove. The weight VTF according to my shure scale is at exactly 1.75 grams. Should just be a matter of fiddling with the anti-skate until my needle doesn't jump around anymore. Or I could set it up again per Rega's exact instructions (never had the needle jump problem then), but then the VTF would read 1.4 grams on my shure scale. Not sure if that will damage my records or not.
Any thoughts?
Interesting. In your original post, you indicated that following Rega's instructions made it track too heavy according to the Shure gauge; now it's ending up too light according to the Shure.
Nonetheless, I would just follow the Rega directions. You had no needle jump problem when you did this, so why change to a procedure that is giving you problems?
.. if the noise/distortion is consistently in the right channel. This gave me fits for years with my Rega, both before and after a rewire, and now I almost always go way less than the same amount as VTF - start with zero and gradually work up to a level that produces the most consistent and balanced sound. It can be kind of a pain, but at least you have the Rega adjuster - some arms have a really fiddly string-and-weight system that can be frustrating.
I use the test records more for getting things in the ballpark, and after no luck with several blank discs, I only use them to check for gross errors and eyeballing azimuth. You may also consider doing an eyeball check of the azimuth on your cart, as others have suggested - one thing I finally found was the headshell/cart fitting on my rb250 is off by the thickness of one lightweight index card - I put one shim on the left side (looking at it from the front), between the HS and the cartridge and azimuth is dead on (at least to the cart body, which is a whole other conversation ...)
You and others here are providing incorrect information by telling bigblueoxe to reduce antiskating in order to correct right channel mistracking. Assuming bigblueoxe has his channels connected correctly, he would increase antiskating to correct right channel mistracking and reduce antiskating to correct left channel mistracking.
Best regards,
John Elison
He said he set anti-skate by applying enough so that the needle didn't move while resting on a blank, grooveless spot on a record. That's too much. It turns out the buzzing he was hearing in the right channel was coming from his speaker.
Edits: 08/15/12
You must be another person who erroneously though that decreasing antiskating would resolve a right channel mistracking problem. It's okay! You can believe what you want to believe. If it works for you, more power to you.
Best regards,
John Elison
He didn't have a right channel anti-skating problem. "Turns out that where the speaker wires plug into my Dynaudio DM 2/5 speakers, there was a loose plastic nut that was rattling." Maybe you are one of those people who erroneously think adding anti-skate will fix a loose nut in a speaker? If you want to believe that, don't let me stop you.
Before you or anyone could know that bigblueoxe had a loose nut, you told him to reduce antiskating because he had a mistracking problem in the right channel. Do you deny this? Read your own post .
Do you even understand what antiskating does? Right channel mistracking is mitigated by increasing antiskating, not reducing it.
As you said before, he could have had his channels reversed, etc. The fact that he said the buzzing was in the right channel was less important than the fact the he said he used enough antiskate to make the needle sit still on a blank space of the vinyl (obviously too much). Take care John.
You don't know the coefficient of friction for his specific stylus on a blank vinyl surface compared to its coefficient of friction in the groove. You have no idea whether setting antiskating on a blank vinyl surface causes too much antiskating, too little antiskating or exactly the correct amount of antiskating. People like Frank Schröder and Peter Ledermann recommend setting antiskating by using a blank vinyl surface.
BTW -- Laura Dearborn mentions the runout method (attributed to someone else) in her book decades ago. I've used that method as a guide along w/test record AS tracks for many moons.
I wonder if the percentage of idiots is the same for digital enthusiasts as for vinyl enthusiasts or whether vinyl just brings out the stupidity in people.
Just wondering!
Best regards,
John Elison
and stick to pleasant discourse?
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
nt
Your historical perspective on the need for painstakingly setting antiskating is noted, and I have a lot of respect for the attention you've given alignment, AS, etc., but I and others have often had different (positive) results than you predict
I think backing off the AS may help solve bigblueoxe's distortion issue, but it is certainly not the only possible cause of that issue
I just assumed he was presiding as John McLaughlin of the McLaughlin group, my favorite political commentary show for 30 years, now (and nicely parodied by Dana Carvey).
It doesn't hurt anything to experiment with antiskating, but if you understand what antiskating does you wouldn't reduce it to correct a right channel mistracking problem. You would increase it.
Best regards,
John Elison
I agree although John knows his schiit, there is no accuracy on anti skate setting unless it's setup on a scope for crosstalk in the channels. Let me add Azimuth in there too no adjustment there on the Rega. How many of us have scopes for this? Hmmmm? Doug has the 301 with the pullout rod setup. Even worse for accuracy.
Set your VTF correctly and set the Anti Skate less than 1 gram, listen a bit and let er rip.
I have always done it that way.
Edits: 08/15/12 08/15/12
Hi Bacobits, I've appreciated your advice in several Rega threads, and in this case I agree with you, too, starting with less AS with the RB303 and adjusting by ear seems to be the way to go. I didn't even use a test record, per se, just the specific grooves where I previously heard sibilance and distortion until it was minimized...I don't think the Elys2/Rega alignment can allow one to completely get rid of it. In addition to the fixed 3-point mount of Rega cartridges (I've switched out to a DL-110 and am now using the Rega/Baerwald alignment) I think my AVR phono input was being overloaded by the combination of the Elys2's relatively high output, the imprecise alignment, highly modulated passages on certain records, a phono section not up to the task, and a possible anti-skate issue. I wasn't sure, but I would've gone nuts trying to get things right. I may have taken the easy way out, but changing the cartridge to the Denon DL-110 solved a couple of problems right off: It had a lower output and a less finicky stylus profile. The Elys2 may have been a rocker of a cartridge--the set-up blew me away at first--but ultimately I, too, got a headache like Bigblueoxe. The Denon is like the good-natured girlfriend who is easier to live with than the high-maintenance hot one you had for a while. Regarding the latter, however, when I get the funds to be better prepared with things like an outboard phono etc., etc. I may give 'er a hollaback. But right now I'm good with the DL-110. I'm not even too concerned about that drooping rear end ;-)
For the long time now I haven't bother to hook up the anti-skate spring mechanism on my Roksan Xerxes arm ... seems to not have effected tracking as far as I can tell (never had a issue), not sonically in ay case.
For my other tables, both of which have a dial setting, I generally just match VTF.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
The use of test records is not waste of time as long as you don't get caught up with them. There is no other way to verify whether your rig is tracking high velocity tracks unless you use a test LP. There are other uses for test LPs but the ability to track "super" LPs is a pretty good indication that you have your rig optimized.The high velocity thing is a bigger deal lately. Reissues of LPs have seen a number of LPs pressed to push the capabilities of the technology. This includes 33RPM LPs that are cut without compression and peak limiting (these generally span multiple LPs where the original was a single 33RPM LP) and quite a few 45RPM releases.
You would be acting like like that dumb bird and be sticking your head in the sand, ignoring potential damage to really high quality LPs if you ignore this issue. Maybe your rig would be setup OK without the aid of a test LP but using one ends the argument.
Using one without a listening test is also stupid. We are adjusting what? And what is the goal? Obviously its a device to play music so you check any changes by playing music.
In the end you need both a test LP and some familiar LPs to test your work. Either one alone leaves the work half done.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Edits: 08/15/12
I admit, I use only familiar passages on certain records to determine the tracking ability of cartridges which come into question. Which test record would you recommend?
The first two are standard test LPs. The HiFi News LP has been around longer and is a standard of sorts. I personally own the HiFi News LP and its about as indispensable a test LP as you will find. It comes with an alignment protractor. I don't know much about the Analog Productions record:
HiFi News Test LP
Analog Productions Test LPThe Cardas record is a bit different and is used for things like degaussing the cartridge by playing a set of sweeping tones:
Cardas Test LPThe Clearaudio record is relatively new and I am not aware of what it does or does not do:
Clearaudio Test LPUPDATE: Apparently Clearaudio has a series of test LPs that do a variety of jobs Clearaudio test LPs
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Edits: 08/16/12
The first one sounded ideal. I've ordered it. Thanks :)
You likely applied too much anti-skate by setting it in the manner you describe. Dial the anti-skate back to zero and move it up slowly from there. If you still are getting notable distortion in one channel, try increasing tracking force, but making sure not to exceed the cartridge manufacturers recommended range. Do not worry if you are applying 2 grams or more of downforce. Better to track a little heavy than mistrack (your records will thank you).
There is a natural Anti Skate to Rega Arms because I guess it is controlled magnetically so
even set at zero there is an outward pull. I have had a lot of Regas and they all fell into a setting of less than 1 gram as best as you could read that on that scale.You don't need much anti skate certainly not 1.75. It is never the same as the tracking force. Set it to less than 1 gram and you should be fine. Although I don't like any of the Rega cartridges the 3 hole setup makes it pretty fool proof to get accurate to Rega's alignment which I also don't like or use. If you are still having distortion issues check that cartridge stylus.
I do use a Shure Scale (make sure it's not magnetic) but it is very fussy to use so I have now been using a very easy Digital Scale, being more accurate.
Edits: 08/15/12 08/15/12
1. I wouldn't worry much about alignment with this cartridge. The Elys2 has 3 screws so it's automatically aligned when you get it connected at all 3 points. Sure, there's a little play in there, but not enough to worry about.2. I wouldn't worry about stylus rake angle, vertical tracking angle or azimuth, either. This stuff is all fixed with the Rega design.
3. I would rely on Rega's recommendation for anti-skating force. Using a blank band on a record to make the stylus stand still is a method that is generally not agreed upon as reliable.
4. I would trust Rega's tracking force recommendation and try to really hit it on the nose. But if you want to try a little more force, something like 1.9 certainly isn't going to harm your records. Failing that, I'd suggest a better cartridge. Many fans of Rega turntables don't care for Rega cartridges. A non-Rega cartridge will, however, likely cause you to have to deal with a change in the tracking angle, since most cartridges are taller.
Edits: 08/14/12
"Prior to getting the shure scale, my tracking weight was too heavy (can't remember how heavy though), but I don't remember having these problems."
According to the TNT-Audio review of the Shure stylus force gauge, its claimed accuracy is to be within a tenth of a gram using the X1 scale, so possibly up to two tenths of a gram off using the X2 scale, which you'd need to use to get tracking forces over 1.5 grams.
If the problems occurred after you bought the Shure scale, then I'd just go back to following the directiions in your user guide and set the tracking force with the scale on the arm.
Which is why I bought a linear tracking tonearm. I have heard setups with a regular tonearm that had no tracking distortion but I never could get mine down to a tolerable level no matter how hard I tried and fiddled. Drove me nuts. Very curious to see if you can fix yours so post back.
American Weigh Scales, AMW-600, $14.95...
I had the exact same tracking issues with my RP3 when I first got it home (I don't think the Rega set-up instructions are very accurate). I easily fixed the problem by setting the tracking force about half way between the 1.75 and 2 mark, and adjusted the anti-skate to match that weight (roughly); it has played flawlessly ever since. Forget about scales and test records--just play around a bit until you get it right.
Enjoy your Rega and the many awesome hours of beautiful music it'll give you.
--Alex
Forget the test record. Play music and adjust the anti-skate. It may be less, more or none that you need.
-Wendell
Make sure your table is level.
1.75 - 2.00 tracking force is probably OK (usually you get to choose from within a range, and you may have to go on the high side).
Adjust antiskate according to the 'test record' but not with the Rega guide numbers - don't know how accurate they are. If you fudge a little on anti-skate, no one will notice, including yourself.
Rethink the situation: Did you really allign the cartridge properly??
(I will usually pull the counter-weight as far back as possible. Adjust the numeric dial so that I can get the proper weight using a Shure gauge at that point. Make sure your cartridge position is correct! Repeat whole procedure if you make any changes.)
Hi. My table is level. The cartridge was installed at the factory by Rega, so I'm assuming it's aligned correctly. It looked okay on the little alignment guide/paper protractor that they gave me.
First, just because it was installed by the factory, it does not mean it is right :)..so go to Vinyl engine and get the generic and the rega specific protractors downloaded and printed. Check the cartridge alignement carefully with any and all protractors you can. Some of them will disagree but if you find that more than two of them are correct disregard the ones that are not :). Otherwise you will drive yourself nuts. I would trust the rega specific one the most, the B Kearns arc protractor second and so on.
Once the protractors are exhausted, level the arm so it floats, make sure it floats everywhere freely and it does not get stuck anywhere, or there is no friction from bearings wires, whatever. Then set the VTF at the recommended force. Here comes the tricky part...you need to make sure you stylus is perfectly vertical to the record surface otherwise you will be scraping one side more than the other. If you stylus is not aligned perfectly square to the cartridge body, wou will need to correct for that by changing the azymuth of your cartridge. I assume the arm has a fixed shell, as it looks fixed on all the pictures i have seen, so if your cartridge is out ouf vertical, you will need to fudge it with washers on something. Once you are in correct vertical, then you can start adjusting the AS. I would use a mono record with a female singing voice. The goal is to make the singer as focused dead in the middle as possible. go in small increments and pay attention to the spread of the image. Once you have a good enough image move to a stereo record with a wide image and make sure each sides are in focus, the image is balanced and well defined on both sides. Now check the records that gave you headaches. If you still have tracking errors, increase the tracking weight by an 1/8th of a gram or so. Recheck the AS with the mono record. Repeat you will know when you got it :)
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
An electronic stylus force gauge.
Pro-ject makes a nice one. Call needledoctor.com and see what they recommend these days.
Oh, and is your table level?
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
My table is level. Have to think about the stylus gauge.
I certainly would think about it. Think twice, I mean.
I've posted here before that I had $100 burning a hole in my pocket and felt I needed a digital scale. My Shure was old school.
I bought an Expressimo Audio scale, and found that my Shure was just as accurate. So, for that matter, was the tracking force dial on my Rega RB-900 arm. I could have saved myself a hundred bucks.
My 2¢
Thanks, man!
Your E mail says no unsolicited E Mails so E Mail me through here your address I will send you a Digital Scale I am not using, NC. You supply the batteries ($5). How's that?The Ken Willis Protractor is the best you can use on the Rega, not the download one which is a universal set up, the one Ken makes up for your specific arm. Do a search here "Ken Willis Protractor".
Edits: 08/15/12
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