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Caveat Emptor or If is too good to be true, it likely is.
Bought a lightly used Koestu Platinum Tiger Eye listed on AudioGon. This $13,000.00 USD cartridge was available for under $5,000.00 USD including shipping from Singapore, Customs, & PayPal fees. The day that the Tiger Arrived I was somewhat surprised that the UPS delivery man just left the package on my front porch – No Signature Required. Odd for a $5, 000.00 USD purchase.
I opened the package and there is was – bright & shiny – beautiful. And, then I made my 2nd mistake. I mounted it with precise care. So far so good! Then I lower the TT arm onto an LP I was quite familiar with and…horrible. One channel did not function at all. The one that did function sounded like those tin can telephones linked by a piece of taught string.
Was it me? Did I somehow mount it wrong? Off to visit a good friend who also owns a VPI Aries 2 Extended with a 12.7i arm. Switched out his wand for mine – even worse.
Now the battle with PayPal begins. After filing with PayPal, I wrote to Joe and explained the situation. He said that he would have to consult with a local Koetsu dealer in Singapore before offering a settlement. I replied to his email, “Do what you like. PayPal will handle it from here.”
…I hope that PayPal will.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
Follow Ups:
PayPal has now raised the Tiger Eye issue to "Claim" status. PayPal also instructed me not to send the Tiger Eye back to Singapore until I heard from them the exact address to use. They have also blocked the seller's account that currently has sufficient funds to cover the complete sale price including S&H to buyer (me).
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
Edits: 04/29/12
Thanks for the update. I hope it works out for you. It would give us all the hope of extra security when buying from a distance. Please continue to keep us informed.
PayPal has given seller until Tuesday, May 8th to respond to claim. If no response, I am to return Koetsu Tiger Eye to the PayPal verified seller's address and send PayPal the Track #.
Then PayPal wil restore the money to my account. We shall see.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
the one time I was in Singapore, they had some really good high end stuff for cheap. I bought a cartridge, because it was a little easier to carry home than those giant speakers they had on display.
Nice to know high end discounting still is alive and well. At least someone is getting a deal, somewhere.
I am certainly too paranoid for the type of transaction mentioned. But then that cart could cover a lot of the cost of my system........................
By the way, Singapore- not my style. I had to hide my long hair, an arestable offense, so not that relaxing of a day, and every cab driver kept wanting to take me to Boogie Street, some kind of big deal whore area. I was just shopping and getting some lunch, I don't want to go hang out with a bunch of whores, so quit bugging me about it.
I couldn't send off five large for something unseen. I wish you well and hope it's resolved to your satisfaction.
Singapore is wayyyy too far away to take a chance IMO. (Unless the op is in Australia? or some other SE asia/ Southern Ocean port))
I agree with AudioSoul; you are a brave man to send $5000 to an unknown vendor in Singapore. But there is some information missing from your story; have you had the cartridge evaluated in order to find out precisely what is wrong with it? I believe Peter Lederman at SS will do that for you for a very nominal fee, especially in view of the cost of the cartridge. Armed with that information, and with Peter's prestige, you can make a better case for yourself with the vendor. (Peter may even be able to repair it for you.) Also, if this was sold "used, as is", you may have a problem unless it was also guaranteed to be working. I would not count on much help from Paypal, based on my own past experience with them, but do keep us informed as to the outcome of this dispute. If you were prescient enough to have used your credit card via Paypal, the credit card company can probably do more than Paypal to help you. (That's what happened in my case, VISA came to my rescue.)
Lew, That is excellent advice and I know Peter. However, all that takes time & PayPal is rather strict when it comes to doing things within the exact time frame. If you play by the PayPal rules, they do come through. After all, with those exorbitant fees, they should… now at 3.5% domestic & 4% foreign.
So, you see, I am not that brave. Also, before I purchased the Tiger, I called PayPal to insure that this transaction would be covered in the event of situations just like this one. And, yes, $5,000.00 does mean something to me: I am not in the 1%.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
I hope this works out in your favor. Let us know if you ever find out what is up with the Tiger Eye.
Are you sure this Cartridge isn't a Koetsu Fugazy?
(Meaning a counterfeit?)
Sounds like it to me.
but possible, I suppose, at that price point. Is there a precedent for this, meaning have ultra high-end cartridges ever been counterfeited in the past?
You are a braver man than I. I would never purchase an item that expensive without seeing it and hearing it in person. Maybe you are the upper 0ne% and $5,000.00 isn't that much....
Not all that brave. PayPal insurance has always come in for me in the past & from my conversations with them recently, they will again.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
That is good to know.....Thanks!
I have seen the ad and the cartridge was, in fact, claimed to be in pristine condition.
However, from my own dealings with Paypal, my understanding is that for a non-eBay transaction, Paypal will only cover you if you did not receive anything at all. Only for an eBay transaction will they (or eBay) go into issues such as the quality of what was received. That doesn't mean that they won't try to mediate, but mediation has no teeth.
Also, AFAIK there is no such thing as Paypal "insurance". If you know otherwise I'd like to know about it. I wouldn't count on any phone conversation for relief.
I agree with Lew that if the seller doesn't resolve the issue your best bet is to appeal to your credit card company putting the word FRAUD in capital letters. If you do that you would be well advised to challenge the credit card charge before you pay the bill on which it appears.
Good luck, and let us know what happens.
The following policy outlines the claims made by BUYER that the SELLER is NOT PROTECTED from. "Significantly Not as Described" is a category from which the SELLER is NOT protected from a chargeback by BUYER.
11.5 Items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection. The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection.
• Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described.
• Items that you deliver in person, including in connection with In-Store Checkout.
• Intangible items, including Digital Goods, and services.
• PayPal Direct Payments.
• Virtual Terminal Payments.
• PayPal Business Payments.
• Items that are not shipped to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details Page. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details Page address but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
First of all, as a consumer and not someone in the audio business, I hope you prevail. However PayPal is a tough outfit and it is well to be prepared. That's why I suggested you also consider a claim through your credit card. You can do both at the same time.
Rather than look at PayPal seller protections, you should look at buyer protections for that's what applies to your claim. They read in part:
13.2 Eligibility Requirements.
To be eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection you must meet all of the following requirements:
Pay for the eligible item from your Account.
Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items purchased with multiple payments – like a deposit followed by a final payment – are not eligible.
Send the payment to the Seller through:
the eBay “Pay Now” button or the eBay invoice; or
the “Send Money” button of your Account by selecting “eBay Item” and entering your eBay User ID and the eBay item number for purchases on eBay website; or
the Send Money tab on the PayPal website, by clicking the “Purchase” tab, or by selecting the “Checkout with PayPal” button or otherwise selecting PayPal as part of a Seller’s checkout flow.
Reading it as a legal document (which it is) it would appear to apply only to purchases from merchants who have contracted with PayPal to have a PayPal checkout procedure on their website. My guess is that as part of PayPal's agreement with them they have an enforceable charge-back procedure. It would seem to exclude purchases made privately as when you just ask PayPal to send money to an email address. It is not clear how your purchase was made.
Another part of the document says, "Once a Dispute has been escalated to a Claim, PayPal will make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller." Suppose they buyer says the item was defective when received and the seller says it was perfect as sent and perfectly packaged but is a delicate item and the buyer evidently damaged it upon installation which is common with this kind of item. I, for one, do not understand how PayPal would be able to decide this kind of claim--it is what the lawyers call a swearing contest. In a court or an arbitration such a dispute is usually resolved against the claimant.
Did not use a CC. I do meet all the requirements as stipulated by PayPal. We shall see. Already filed dispute. Get to elevate to Claim in 16 more days. Cartridge goes back to Singapore Saturday morning.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
Well, you obviously have not told the whole story about this purchase, specifically about how you paid. I would not send it back without instructions from either PayPal or the seller to do so. If you do the seller will have both the item and the money in Singapore.
Edits: 04/25/12
I never said I used a CC. Not that it is relevant; I used money already in my PayPal account.
I am acting on advice from a supervisor at PayPal.
I do agree. The threat that I could end up with neither the money nor the broken cartridge does concern me.
Christopher
Qui tacet consentit.
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