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I have just bought Acme fuse(s) for my new amplifier (GamuT D 200) and have a question about fuse direction. The fuse now have 100+ hours on it, so I think it has (almost) burned in.
Now the question is, should the fuse direction be determined before burning in period or after?
My thinking is, that the fuse has only been burned in in one direction (I bought a spare fuse, so I have both options :-))
mojul
Follow Ups:
Positive Feedback article on HiFi Tuning study of fuse directionality.
Relevant Aspects of Copper and Copper Alloy Metallurgy
Roger N. Wright, in Wire Technology (Second Edition), 2016
13.3.2 Texture, Anisotropy, and Springback
Wire drawing deformation, however, creates preferred grain orientations, or texture. In this context, wire properties vary with direction, and, as the texture varies in orientation or in nonrandomness, the properties in the axial direction (along the wire length) vary. Strong drawing textures may be passed on through the anneal process, although the actual preferred orientation may change. Table 13.1 summarizes some preferred orientations for copper wire, as a function of process history. Good analyses on wire texture and anisotropy have been published by Aernoudt115 and by Van Houtte.116
this might solve lots of fuse issues. Site might be down for a few days)
https://verafiaudiollc.com/products/best-audio-products/swiss-digital-fuse-box-52299809"While good as a safety device, the characteristics of a fuse are not optimum for audio performance. First of all, the existing fuse in your piece of equipment is replace by a solid copper rod (named "SLUGGO") which has negligible resistance and can pass currents you are unlikely to see in any audio product - certainly more than a hundred Amps - before heating (please be sure to read the safety implications of using SLUGGO in your own product.)"
Edits: 04/21/23
Last night my friend and I turned around the fuse (Acme Silver Cryo CFC) in my GamuT D200 and the difference was obvious and not small. The fuse sounded better when turned around. My friend didn't expect anything would change or at least he would be able to hear it (he is a musician). We were both surprised and heard the same as others here, much clearer, better definition, etc.
After that we did the same with my tube pre amp (PHP fuse, bought in 2006) and the same happened, but this time the sound was better before the fuse was turned around. The difference was not as big, as with the Acme though.
Will buy Acme fuses for the pre amp, as soon as the value I need is back in stock again.
mojul
You don't understand the scientific method, or statistics. But you're having fun, and that's what counts.
What sounds better?
Mounting the fuse holder vertically or horizontally?
Novus Ordo Seclorum
I actually put my preamp upside down on the shelf. Damned if it doesn't sound more open and detailed.
However I found I had to reverse the polarity of the speaker connections to get the same bass.
Go figure!
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
Put a fuse in the car backward and now it has 6 speeds in reverse and one forward.
It would seem to me that if the orientation of the fuse makes a difference then the same should probably apply to resistors since a fuse is just a resistor that melts, ie a fusible resistor. Good luck reorienting and testing all your resistors!
"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia
:)
NT
My SR Orange fuse is definitely directional. The sound gets definitely flat and lifeless with the fuse installed in the wrong orientation. The difference is very obvious. I heard it before burn in, and when I tried again to reverse the fuse AFTER burn in, the difference was there still. I don't know what would have happened if I burned in the fuse in the wrong orientation, but I think the correct orientation would still sound best.
I always wondered about the symbols on the outside that make it appear there is a diode or a capacitor inside. (I forget which, and you can bet I own no SR fuses that would allow me to refresh my memory.)
z
Earlier it was pointed out that in an AC line, which is where almost all fuses are used, the electricity changes direction.No one has refuted this. Yet no one has addressed this either.
Please explain why the direction of the fuse matters when the electricity that's flowing through it is constantly changing direction.
If the electricity if flowing through the fuse in the "correct" direction half the time and in the "incorrect" direction half the time, the orientation of the fuse shouldn't matter.
It seems to me that this is the "elephant in the room" question, which the true believers have chosen to ignore.
Edits: 01/18/23
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nt.
True, but many of these people are either confused or "nukin futz".
Is the simplest answer.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
I have a solution BUT want some $$$ from anyone who does this.
Wire 2 fuses in parallel......with a diode in series with each. Wire in such a way that current only flows ONE WAY thru each fuse.
Make certain that the fuses are oriented in the 'optimum' direction......
Too much is never enough
Getting off on the wrong foot.
One step forward and one step backward.
Or...
One step backward and one step forward.
Darn electrons.
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Respectfully, there isn't an elephant in the room. I think it's more like:
We all get the fact that the current alternates - no one is disputing that. But what the dogmatists seem to not understand is that some of us, depending on the aftermarket fuse and the piece of equipment it's used in, consistently have a preference for one fuse orientation over the other.
In some cases, again depending on the particular fuse and the unit it's used in, there is no preference for one orientation over the other - it sounds the same either way.
Could we maybe put this to rest and move on?
Joe
Yeah, except when you remove a fuse and put it back opposite you're not changing its orientation. :)
You're changing its physical orientation, but not its electrical orientation.
This seems to confound some. I suggest to think about it further.Calling those of us pointing out the basic electrical properties of this usage "dogmatists" is lazy rhetoric.
Remember, if the proof of your evaluation is subjective in nature only, then you haven't proven anything.......and any labels like "dogma" should be left on the sidelines.Dave.
Edits: 01/18/23 01/18/23
To me....and I certainly could be 100% wrong, the word 'Dogma' has religious conotations......
Please see above for my propoed solution ot the 'mystery of the fuse'......
Too much is never enough
It may have that connotation to you but it isn't what the word denotes.
dog·ma
/ˈdôɡmə/
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
"the rejection of political dogma"
Joe
...but this one goes to eleven...
One of the luxuries of the tweaker asylum is you can ignore the elephant in the room. :)
In fact, the elephant is ignored in many areas of the audiophile industry. :)
Dave.
Ignore Elephant at your own peril.
You could Drown in the mess they make!
I doubt anyone would wade in to rescue ME and I sure and going in after YOU!
Too much is never enough
The fuse is operating in an AC circuit. The amplifier has two power transformers. The line fuse is between (in series with) the incoming AC hot side and one lead of the primary of each of the power transformer. Current will reverse direction twice each cycle. (120 times per second if the AC is 60Hz)If the fuse was operating in a DC circuit then there might be a possibility that it could be directional.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 01/15/23
Hi Tre
I believe your picture shows the inside of the Gamut D200?
I very much love the sound of this single MOSFET amp, had a Sirius DMX 100 before, that also was a single MOSFET. The Sirius company changed name to GamuT and I think their sound is in family, although the D200 is in a another league ;-)
mojul
"If the fuse was operating in a DC circuit then there might be a possibility that it could be directional."
Have you personally experienced DC circuit fuses that perform noticeably different when direction gets reversed?
What are the characteristics of the performance differences?
I'm assuming you're talking about "normal" fuses intended to prevent overcurrents with carefully engineered melting metal elements...
"Have you personally experienced DC circuit fuses that perform noticeably different when direction gets reversed?"
No.
To me this is all very silly without a base line. The only way to tell if some fuses are better than others (and I think that is where we should start before we get into directionality) is to run a unit without a fuse and see what that sounds like (and tests like) and then see if we can even hear a difference when you put a fuse in for safety. If we can't hear that then the whole "directional fuse" question is moot.
How much of a voltage drop do you think happens across a fuse?
There are things that might make a theoretical difference but that does not automatically make them audible.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
OK. I see. Good points.I'm skeptical the evidence from such experiments would support altering the original design in most cases but....
If the voltage drop, presumably caused by the fuse current modulating the element impedance, in audio equipment protection fuses, is noticably finding it's way into the audio signal in some pieces of gear.....and users truly have taken modifying some aspect of the safety design to overcome the damage it does to the products performance, maybe it would be best for everybody if that piece of gear would get removed from the market before someone gets hurt.
Edit: BTW definitely not holding my breath waiting for that piece of gear to surface as it would immediately be laughed off the market and out of existence and I am under the assumption that unqualified individuals, prone to monkeying with their safety circuits, being a bit stunned seems more likely.
Edits: 01/16/23 01/16/23 01/16/23 01/16/23
"is to run a unit without a fuse and see what that sounds like (and tests like) and then see if we can even hear a difference when you put a fuse in"
There are people claiming certain fuses sound BETTER than bypassing the fuse! Until I try it myself, I will not rule in or rule out the possibility, but it does nauseate me a little bit that fuses exist that cost near $3000...
That's LAST years price.
If they've gone up in price 10% (like a cup of coffee has) since then, well...
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
... getting started. I believe their top-o-the-line Gold level comes in at $10K. I believe it has just launched.
Thanks. I gotta see this to believe it.
QSA audio
Errr, a fuse using AC has no direction due to the voltage passes each way (forward and backward) thru the fuse. Anything you hear is placebo effect.
Yes, as has been covered 1000 times before. I have no subjective experience in this arena...I'm just reporting on what's currently available in the marketplace.
Below is a link to a post by Ralph of Atma-Sphere, regarding fuse direction, where he says perceived differences in sound are due to voltage drop. The less drop, the better the sound, according to him.
At the time, I misinterpreted his post to mean that the internal element of fuse itself was causing the voltage variation. When asking him about it when the subject came up again elsewhere, he explained that it was due to the amount of contact between the fuse and its holder. Apparently one direction often gives better contact than the other, and said, "Boutique fuses are a little better at this in general".
Note that I've never tried his suggestion, but the explanation always made more sense to me than those who believe in better alignment of the electrons from a $100 fuse, or some such thing.
Ralph is generally pretty good with his comments, but that one was nonsensical.
Of course there is a minute drop in voltage across a fuse. But that voltage drop will not increase (or decrease) if the fuse is switched in orientation.....all other things being equal. You could measure voltage across a fuse, switch its direction and measure again. Do that 100 times and compare the results and there'd be no consistency at all regards direction.
This requires no subjective evaluation, no voltage measurements, no anything. It's implicitly obvious based on the conditions the fuse is operating in.What we have here is schlock marketeers creating a belief in the audiophile brain and then selling a product to that belief. :)
Dave.
Edits: 01/16/23
Is that a lot also depends on in what the fuse is being used.
In the case I measured, the amp was a zero feedback tube amp with a rather large filament circuit (about 19 Amps). Because there's no correction, yes, changes in line voltage most definitely affect it (not only does the plate voltage go down but the tubes cool off a little as well)! To measure the effect on such an amp, measure output power, distortion and output impedance. With greater voltage drop, the output power decreases and the other two metrics increase.
WRT fuse direction, that is so much poppycock. What is happening is the fuse isn't perfectly symmetrical and can get a better connection in the fuse holder one way or the other, so less voltage drop. For this reason people wind up thinking they are directional, which obviously is impossible.
You can get the same effect by rotating the fuse in its holder without reversing it; measure for the least voltage drop.
We make a class D amp that employs quite a lot of feedback and as a result of the rejection offered by that feedback, does not seem to respond to fuses at all.
The takeaway is the current draw, the kind of load and what feedback is present all play a role.
There's nothing I'm not getting Ralph. I well understand there are different applications where fuse voltage drop might have a significant, maybe even audible, effect.What this thread is about, and what my comments have been about, is only in regards to fuse 'directionality'.
Cheers,
Dave.
Edits: 01/20/23
-
I suppose Ralph's sensibilities are why I've hung onto his voltage drop explanation as at least some form of an explanation for my otherwise skeptic nature.
One other thing which hasn't been touched on in this thread, and the primary reason I haven't tried a boutique fuse for myself, is that I don't know if I can trust their ratings. I'm not willing to sacrifice an expensive amplifier because the 4 amp boutique fuse I'd spend $150 on, actually wouldn't open until current reached 8 amps.
I think if that's the reason you're not trying boutique fuses you're missing the whole point.
Dave.
I don't think that I'm missing the point. I'm a born skeptic, but I don't consider myself such a pedantic theorist that I wouldn't at least try a boutique fuse if I had one, to prove to myself that these guys are imagining things.
Note that the key word is "try" though. I have no desire to actually buy a non-UL rated, non-returnable, disposable item like a fuse. But if someone handed me one, I wouldn't not try it.
This is not pedantic theory we're talking about here.If you hold open the possibility of trying fuse orientation to prove to yourself something then......? (This is the point I'm referring to.)
Some things are factually obvious without experimentation to prove it. If I have a wheel of known circumference and desire to know how many revolutions it takes to travel 100 yards, I don't need the wheel and a football field to determine that.
Dave.
Edits: 01/18/23
a Buss, Fusetron, or Littlefuse has an element inside it one half inches long ...that's for what used to be the standard size. I have cracked open a few over many years to see what the construction is and there is nothing in there to indicate that that small piece of wire soldered into both inside ends of the caps has anything to do with making a better sound if reversed. Only the addition of ingesting alcohol or drugs does that, or listening in the early morning and then listening in the evening after tweaking something like a 'normal fuse'. Just pulling a fuse out, cleaning the ends, and applying some Silclear or Deoxit will make a small difference.
And what about the specialty boutique types? Maybe, but I feel sorry for those who live for stuff like this instead of focusing on the god dam music.
Yeah, I think I'm pretty much with you, man.
Just asking to try and be sure someone doesn't know of something I've never thought about.
You never know around here. maybe.
I kind of half expected something like for example fuses temp coefficient of resistance cropping up as a real time system performance variable needing managing in some products.
Not that I expect that's a common problem for reasonably designed circuits.....
I am with TRE, fuse direction makes no difference same as cow dong makes no difference placed on speaker wires.
"cow dong makes no difference placed on speaker wires."
Not sure how putting cow dong on my speaker wires wouldn't change everything.
Cost is atmospheric.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I forgot where I found these photos?, but felt the need to save them into my photo gallery nonetheless.
How does those pictures tell you how the circuit is wired inside the chassis?
The line fuse is wired in series with the hot as the hot heads towards the power transformer. Not from hot to neutral.
Those pictures are meaningless.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It came back to me where I found the photos, of which I'd think in said case both Tweek Geek | QSA which is an actual manufacturer of fuse, should know something on the subject, no?:https://www.tweekgeek.com/quantum-science-audio-5-x-20mm-slow-blow-fuse/
Edits: 01/15/23
I'd ask since you're saying they're meaningless, why don't you provide photos showing both sides?. Now that would be welcomed, as I'm quite certain if nothing else?, fuses are directional.
"why don't you provide photos showing both sides?"
What? I didn't show any pictures. At least I don't think I did.
The amp in question has the fuse holder as part of the IEC socket. The pictures you show do not so that is why I say they are meaningless.
Again, the fuse is wired in series with the primary winding of the two power transformers so I can't understand how your pictures tells us anything.
What evidence do you have that fuses are directional other than anecdotal?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Understood, yet once again said comments and photos were taken from Tweek Geek, showing the QSA based fuses of which I've purchased two ( black | light blue version# ) where both were tried both ways around, and worked better as shown in said illustrations.
I can only speak on what works in my system, as judged by my own ears being able to distinguish said sound based upon what's hear here, as the old adage goes YMMV seems to apply here, especially those saying the directionally of fuses doesn't matter.
A small number of my audiophile acquaintances has tried the Acme Audio Labs silver cryo fuse, in a variety of gear.
I have one in the large, slow-blow, 3A value, for use in an Adcom GFA-6002. If you look really carefully, each end cap has different writing/logos. At least in the GFA-6002, fuses are directional. That is, the fuses will make the amp sound different, depending on which way the fuse is oriented.
No one close to me is an audiophile. Yet, all these non-audiophiles hear the difference(s) in fuse direction. In that Adcom GFA-6002, everyone prefers the AAL silver cryo, with the fuse value pointing or being closer to the rear panel.
Yet, I have an audiophile friend, whose ears I trust. Because the AAL fuses are affordable, he's been able to order specific values, for each of his components. In most of his components, he and other listeners do hear a difference, in fuse directionality. Yet, in some of his components, he doesn't detect any sonic differences, when swapping fuse direction. Just goes to show, that we have to experiment.
Hi Luminator
Qute: "everyone prefers the AAL silver cryo, with the fuse value pointing or being closer to the rear panel".
Pointing og being closer to rear panel, has that something to do with directionality?
Do you mean, that the end with the fuse value should be on the + of the power line.
I am now also using the AAL Silver Cryo CFC fuse.
mojul
This is the rear panel of an Adcom GFA-6002. This particular unit uses a large, slow-blow 3A fuse value.
We have an AAL silver cryo fuse in this value. If you look carefully at the fuse, one end cap says, "326," followed by four icons/logos. Everyone (none of whom is an audiophile) who has been over prefers the sound of this GFA-6002, with this end being placed deeper into the amp.
The other end cap says, "3A/250VP." It is this end, which should be placed, facing, or oriented closest to the GFA-6002's rear panel.
If you reverse the fuse direction in the GFA-6002, obviously, it works just same. But this does affect the GFA-6002's sonics.
Because the AAL silver cryo fuse is not expensive, several audiophiles have told me that they actually bought and tried some. Much depends on the component. And don't forget. Even if you hear a difference, you have to ask yourself if said difference is positive, negative, or quid pro quo.
As Lummy says, this isn't a case of absolutes but you don't know until you try.
Joe
Except for the fact it is an absolute. Fuses are non-directional.
Listening evaluations are irrelevant.
Dave.
the usual ones anyway. Who knows what's inside the boutique ones to account for any consistent perceived difference. I've never tried any
Consistent perceived differences?? Good one. :)
Any "fuse" that has a directional characteristic is no longer a fuse. It is some sort of gadget with a diode effect.
The problematic premise here is that many audiophiles consider fuses "tweaks." They are definitely not.
Dave.
I have had "hi end" wires on my bench and it seems that the manufactures made the wire wrong (high capacitance) just so the buyer would hear a difference and feel good about the expenditure.
Don't ask me what wires they were. It was a long time ago.
Has anyone measured one of these fancy fuses against a standard fuse to see what's up?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Some interconnect manufacturers, e.g., MIT and Transparent, insert a "black box" at the downstream end of their ICs and speaker wires, which so far as I know contains either just a capacitor or an RC network. I assume the capacitance value is very low, but it may help to produce a low characteristic impedance for the IC or speaker wire overall. In my experience this can be a good thing especially and maybe more so in speaker wires. My OTLs seem to work best driving a wire with low characteristic impedance. OTOH, some wires with high characteristic impedance, e.g., Nordost, have sounded awful in my system. Anyway, capacitance isn't all bad.
I posted a while ago if anyone took one of these boutiques apart and the only answer I got was "I will when one of them blows". So far nothing.
It doesn't seem likely being that they are so small but taking one apart might dispel the myths once and for all and put an end to it.
And listen! Read what HiFi tuning has to say about a fuses direction. Have fun!
How does this work with European electronics which come with two fuses, one on each leg of the power cable? I presume that the 120/240 switch enables it to be US legal. What does it do to the ability to figure out the proper orientation for the fuses?
Thank you all for responses!
I have visited HiFi-tuning.com, but could not find anything about fuse direction or even their own fuses...
On VHaudio, Audiogon and here on the Asylum:
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=212628&VT=T
they all claim to hear differences (on VHaudio they say that they are directional, but not if they themselves have tried it).
Hawkmoon could you please provide a link?
mojul
Hopefully, hawkmoon won't mind but here's the link. Go down a few pages for the Evaluation of Measurements.
Joe
Yeesh.
The problem is, altering the resistance would presumably significantly alter the I^2*T performance....which I have yet to see any of these boutique fuse manufacturers talking about.
I'm pretty sure I know what my insurance agent would have to say about throwing unlisted /unregisterred fuses in my gear....especially when I can't show the math proving the level of safety acomplished by the OEM's design isn't being compromised by using one of these fuses.
Besides...how is resistance even supposed to be directional for crying out loud? Changing orientation doesn't change the performance of a resistor.
Aftermarket fuses aren't for you. How about we leave it at that?
Joe
How can we conclude that? Because I asked questions about how well they work for their intended purpose? If you don't care about that why not just replace the fuses with a slug of some high conductivity material? Maybe I would think it was the best thing that ever happened to me if I put one of these fuses in something I use.
Hi Joe
Thank you for link to these fuse measurements. Now, at least we know, there are differences between ordinary and audiophile fuses, the audiophile fuses having the most low resistance.
mojul
Problem is that most audiophile fuses are not UL approved. Thus one cannot be sure they will do their job as fuses when and if the time comes. It is in fact not reassuring to learn they have lower resistance to start with (even assuming that is true), because that suggests they are too conductive to melt out when confronted with an overload situation.
Read the results and draw your own conclusions. Great post!
44.47 vs 44.57 mOhms?A difference of .0001 ohms?
At 1 amp (and that is where they were measuring) the voltage drop would be .04447 volts vs. .04457 volts.
So instead of having 119.95553 volts (assuming a 120 volt line from the wall socket) you would have 119.95543 volts feeding the primary winding of the power transformer. Oh the horror!
Do people really claim to be able to hear that?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 01/15/23
Thanks for the math. Those of us who understand electrical concepts know this but your numbers drive the point home to those who don't.
Just do a search here"tweakers asylum" using hi fi tuning fuse and you will get dozens of posts. Enjoy the music also has several reviews of fuses and their sound as well. The easy thing is listen, then turn the fuse around, and listen again. Many choices out there. Enjoy
Here's a good review
Hi Hawkmoon
Thanks for link.
This Enjoy The Music review in the end got me to try this fuse and am happy I did.
mojul
Fuses are not directional. And even if they were, it wouldn't make any difference in AC circuits.
Dave.
Bingo!
Too much is never enough
From Synergistic FAQ:
"Q: Are fuses directional?
A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."
P.S. I did trial the Synergistic Purple fuses, in both directions, and did not feel they sounded different in either direction..
"Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse"
If the fuse is wired in the AC line between the wall outlet and the power supply for the unit, then the "electricity" is flowing one direction and then reversing and flowing the other direction. Rinse and repeat.
This is basic stuff.
One the other hand I had a good laugh.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
So figuring out left/right AND/OR up/down/back/forth just... confuses things that much more.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
nt
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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