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Recent review in TAS of tube amp by the estimable Dick Olsher: To improve its sound, he swaps out the supplied 6SN7 drivers for NOS Sylvanias or some such venerated antiques, and reports that he dislikes all the Chinese and Russian 6SN7s. Since I have just acquired four Russian Tung Sol drivers from Jim McShane at his recommendation, and they sound just fine to my ears in my splendid VAC Phi 300i, I wonder whether Olsher has actually heard them. Word is that Tung Sols have improved recently, or is this just wishful thinking?
Follow Ups:
He almost always rolls tubes. So the question arises, is this a valid review? I have to question that for 2 reasons, first the a new tube design is almost always designed around a new production tube (difficult to produce a design around a very limited NOS supply etc), second one can not always get the same tubes that Mr Olsher used to get his review goal (agin a limited NOS supply). One could also add that a subed tube, even if it is the same type of tube may have enough differences that the circuit may not do so well with this rolled tube. Just food for thought.
For practical reasons, almost all designs must, as you noted, be designed around current production tubes. The manufacturer must have an assured supply, both for the current run, and to resupply the purchaser. Also, buyers taste and systems differ, so it is impossible to predict which alternative tubes will be preferred. That is why it makes sense to stick with cheap current production tubes.
It actually is important for a reviewer of tube gear to point out how much a component can be changed by swapping tubes. I don't know of a single component that was not signficantly improved by changing out the tube complement. That includes my quite expensive Audionote (uk) Kageki amps which actually do come from the factory with NOS tubes. I just happen to prefer the sound of other tubes.
I LOVE reviews that discuss the effects of tube-rolling. The reviewer should comment on the sound of the stock tubes, sure, but many audiophiles are going to roll, and there are very few NOS tube types that are truly unavailable.
Rob"Let there be songs, to fill the air"
Try RS241.....
Which can be used in what audio device?
Rob"Let there be songs, to fill the air"
I don't have a problem with that. In most cases, stock tubes really suck. They are usually picked for availability and price. Its safe to say, that almost every piece of gear I own didn't come anywhere near its potential until I swapped out the tubes.
Jack
and replaced them with 2C22/7193s. Far, far better sounding to me, especially when I added a CCS for the plates and diode bias using Cree SiC Schottky's. Better sound from the low bass all the way up to the shimmer of a cymbal. This is in a Supratek Chenin preamp.P.S.: I had first tried tube rolling with all manner of Tungsols (round plates included), Sylvanias, RCA Grey glass, Raytheon, GEs, EH, Shuguang, etc. Not even close to the 2C22 IMHO.
Edits: 08/18/09
I do not design much with 6SN7 anymore. I visited a site that resulted in the E80CC being much lower distortion vs the 6SN7. I find the Tungsram E80CC most superior IMO. Amperex E80CC & 6085 are close to the Tungsram in performance, but simply a matter of the Amperex being warmer vs more neutral sonically. The Tungsram have holes in the plate ends for aligning the grid vs no homes in the Amperex plates.
Max,
Perhaps the diodes made as big a difference as the tube swap? Personally,
I will avoid gear whose sonics depend on expensive NOS tubes. There are many great new production tubes out there today and I'd rather have equipment that sounds great with readily available and relatively inexpensive tubes. :-)
The NOS 2C22/7193 tubes cost $5-8 each in their original military boxes, less than most modern alternatives. They are also plentiful as they were made in mass quantities for WWII radar systems.
As far as the diode bias being the cause of the improvement, I had the 2C22s in my system for a year before I did the diode bias mod, so that was not the reason they sounded better. The diode bias and CCS took them to an even higher level later, though.
I am a beliver in old 6SN7s even with all the truly unusable shit that bad people circulate. I think my collection of them has a pleasing variety of different character tubes and afforded me through a series of rolls the tube that for now best suits for my tastes and is synergystic with the rest of my system.
I have a great deal of confidence in Jim and presume the new Tung Sol (relatively recent) must be at least of high quality or he would not sell them. Unfortunately years of the old EHs the stock Sinos etc sounding pretty terrible if compared with the most humble old stock GTBs, That I could pick at random a screened playable pair that spanked that generation of 6SN7s. I will ask jim to sell me a pair of his prescreened new Tung Sols to see how they sound.
I am convinced "a priori" that the Sylvania heavily chromed tubed with plates opposed not the angled ones nor the bottom getter version. It is sometimes called the chrome dome, is currently tops I haven't found any thing other that the tubes in that family that has knocked them off their perch. Amongst these are the vaunted W or the metal based green letter CHS 6SN7 A not GT yet.
They don't have to be the W in fact I find many too many W's sold at high prices with promised perfection that anyone with a concscience could never sell even for a buck they are in such sad shape.I find that the tubes built in much the same way except missing the extra copper rod sound better in many cases. The W it seems was recognized a long time ago as a good tube then used them and resold repeatedly until they are ridiculously weak and noisy.
The OEM chrome Dome top getter GT is the best of all. No one who thinks they are tube saavy (NOT) wants a tube not labeled Sylvania even when they have the 312 factory code.
I wish I had the skill and knowledge to make any tube or so it it seems function in place of the original engineers specified tube type. The competition for rarely heard of tubes that can be used seems almost non existant. In addition your choices seem endless.
I am jealous but do wonder why the engineers always seem to pick tubes from a handful of choices, that are well known. Were they just being stupid or did they honeslty believe the choice was a good one? The choice seemingly important to the outcome not just a convenient and familiar tube?
This may be true today because the selection of tubes made currently is limited. In the day when tubes really were all we had for these purposes seems endless. They still chose the usual suspects. The only exception being tuners which are replete with tubes rarely mentioned.
OK a long winded a vote for Old Production until I get a pair from Jim. Then I will know, If I wasted all this time and money, chasing good examples of the classics.
BTW shameless silly but true plug Any one interested in 6SN7s called Citations see the classified.
Is there a similar tube like this to the 6SL7?
But I'm not sure if it's just a 6SL7 selected for the close matching of its triodes, or if it has other improved characteristics too.
hey-Hey!!!,
I have not seen Tung-Sol 6SL7 that have the same structure of their 6SU7's yet. Black glass, and round plates that is...the others, maybe.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Still a dual triode, in a ST bottle, different pinout with one grid connected to the top. Almost a like- for- like otherwise besides it having lower gain. Cheap too, and good ones are available.
Cory
I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the 2C22 a few years ago - it made all 6SN7s sound boring. I used it for a while as my favourite tube until I discovered DHTs. They, in their turn, walked all over the 2C22. There aren't really any double DHTs that don't have a common cathode, so nothing directly comparable. Even a humble 30 which is far from the best small DHT will outclass a 2C22. After that it just gets better.
If you are re-wiring the preamp with two octal sockets, try out a 1H4 (30 in octal base) or a 1G4GT. The latter comes in two kinds - flat and round anode. I'd probably go with the round anode. Even better is a 1G4G though rare. Then there's the 1E4 as well. You need to check max plate voltage on these things - some (1G4G) are as low as 90v though 1H4 is 180v.
You might have a surprise. They need separate DC filament supplies of course but you could rig those up outboard and just put something like a 4 pin XLR socket on the back of the preamp. Or indeed a 4 pin Speakon.
These valves are quite microphonic and like a high mass chassis - try them out before making any permanent changes! They're all cheap and available.
andy
Yes they sound better then any 6SN7's I've tried also. I'm glad I bought a case of 100 of them back when they were still less than a $..The 2C22/7193 tubes definitely seem a lot more consistant to each other even between brands compared to 6SN7's of which there are countless varieties of.I'm just starting to experiment with DHT stuff again though..
Dave
Edits: 08/20/09
I agree on the consistency. I have Ken-Rad, RCA and National Union versions and they all sound excellent. Very little difference between them.
Thanks for the info, Andy, but I'm knee deep in the rewiring now. I think I'll stick with the 2C22s for now (I have a box of ~20 of the military versions from WWII in different brands - they are only ~$5-8 each, so it's easy to stock up on them); I'm also in the midst of tearing apart my speakers, so too many projects to do with so little time. No microphonics with the 2C22; you can tap on the glass, rattle the shelf, scream next to them - nothing.Just curious - did you try the 2C22 with a constant current source on the plate and diode bias? The difference in going from a resistor to a CCS was at least as great as going from the 6SN7 to the 2C22.
I will definitely keep the DHTs in mind though - I'll probably build a preamp from scratch in the future and it will most likely be a DHT preamp, if I can overcome the microphonics issues.
Thanks again for the info.
Edits: 08/19/09 08/19/09
Sounds like a good idea, the downfall being that this is a single triode. Similar characteristics, but it uses twice the heater current, and you'd need two of them to make a 6SN7.
I may give this a shot in something, but I think I'd make some sort of an adapter first. Two top caps each, and two tubes to replace a single though... sounds like a lot of work!
Have you tried any 6J5s?
Cory
The Chenin preamp has TONS of gain, with the two sections of the 6SN7 directly coupled, so going from a dual triode to a single triode actually worked in my favor. I used only one to replace each 6SN7, so the heater current was identical to 1/2 of a 6SN7 (0.3A). I did fabricate an adapter for them, so the only wiring change needed was to move the output wires from K2/A2 to K1/A1.Pictures above of the adapters and the installed 2C22 tubes.
Edit: By the way, I like the change so much I'm currently in the process of rewiring the sockets so that I don't need the adapters any more. I'm also putting in Duelund output caps, TX2575 resistors, solid core silver wire for the signal path, etc.
Edits: 08/18/09 08/18/09 08/18/09
Not to contradict Jim McShane, but I just put in my pair of NS Tungsols in place of a pair of old Tungsol GTBs (triangle plates similar to Sylvanias) ias a driver in my EL84PP amp. They (the NS) are slightly more expansive, and just a little bit more coarse sounding. However, they are at least equal to many a Sylvania GTA/B from the 60's and 70's, as I remember. Now a pair of Raytheon VT-231's, they are the bee's knees!
Wow, "bee's knee's? Thats my moms saying.
"You go to Heaven for the climate and to Hell for the
company"...Mark Twain
"We lived for days on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
A tube can sound different in different circuits. At times a tube compliments another tube & all is well. It also depends upon ones hearing with regard to what is pleasing.
I like neutral uncolored tubes with a clear & accurate presentation. That may be to dry sounding for others. Some actually like distortion & there are different types of distortion- 2nd, 3rd harmonic, etc.
How true.
And tube that does not test so well, can still be quite pleasing. I recently tested the two 6BQ5s in one of my SET amps. One was under minimum on the test, the other slightly above. I popped them back in. They sound fine to me. I've been running them for a few months. Words of caution? Not needed if there are any. If it harms my amp, no big deal...I'll just pull another one off the shelf.
Don't know if it's the weakish tubes, the accuracy of the recording, or other factors (high volume), but sometimes I hear some distortion from Neil Young's guitar that sounds like the breakup I'd hear coming out of a guitar amp. If it's my amp, I love it. It's playing the music I (notice I said I) want to hear it....distortion and all.
Byrdshit
Yes, how a tube sounds in any particular bit of equipment is a kind of random confluence of small mechanical differences in the tubes that reacts a certain way in certain circuits that creates a pleasing sound to one's ears. And some tubes have universal approval too and sound good in a variety of gear.
There is also the impression most of us have that if a tube is precisely engineered it has to sound good e. g., the RCA 5691 or Bendix 6900 tubes. Well, maybe, if we are lucky. But the early 1930s tubes sound good too. They look pretty primitive, but who knows, maybe it is the simplicity of the mechanical structure of the filament, cathode, grid, and plate in its concentric layers...
In the end, the 6SN7 is generally used by those who don't read their tube manuals every night before bed.
Many of the NOS non-round plate Tung-Sol 6SN7GTs are very very good tubes. If you see a very common-looking clear glass T-S 6Sn7GT without mouse ears, buy it if it tests good. Check Tube Mongers pics, first.
I don't care for any of the non-NOS 6SN7GT. I don't care for any of the WGT models, or A models, but I can live with the T-S and Sylvania B's, and none of the others.
"Live free or die"
wise comments.I, along with Paul Knutson, was one of the first to find the Tungsol black glass round plate tube, over 10 years ago. We collaborated to bring in a large stash of these, in still shrink wrapped cases, from a dealer in India at dirt cheap prices.
The comments we both made about them many years ago still stand. A decent enough tube, if a bit tizzy on top. Tilted to the open, but somewhat tizzy top. A bit light bass wise, and not nearly up to the really great 6SN7's like the 1940's KenRad, the black glass National Union, the 1940's RCA grey glass, and the 1940's Raytheon military VT-231 variants.
Now - about those 1950's Tungsols. Not seen very often, and not much talked about. I rate them as one of the very best. There is the "mouse ears" which is outstanding, and a few years earlier, without those round side micas, Tungsol made a killer grey plate in a clear bottle. I have about 12 pairs in my stash, and they are very good. There is another version with square side micas, and a square top mica - pretty much the same as the mouse ears sound. These are great tubes, and my sense over the years is that round plate Tungsol has been driven up in price purely by audiophile myth and foolishness. Then again, thanks to those folks, I sold all my stash long ago at crazy prices - my last pair went for $1,000 on Ebay a few years ago.
However, the round plate Tungsol does have it's place. In amps that are sludgey and over-ripe, it might just be a great choice. And I note that Far East audiophiles go nuts over this tube, and I always felt that Far East tastes ran on the bright and clinical side of things, so that may explain a lot.
Those tall bottle Tungsol WGT's are very good, and in fact, those labelled GTB with the same construction are actually the exact same tube as the WGT - I have had both come from the exact same bulk pack, with same batch and date codes.
I've never heard a Sylvania GTB that I could live with, not an RCA (although they are better) or GE. Sylvania 1950's GTA's are another matter - they are not bad at all, although still not up to the best.
Unfortunately, I have never heard a Russian or Chinese 6SN7 that is anywhere in the league of the best American 6SN7's, and I doubt I ever will - not that I have any desire to find out anyways. Good NOS is still around, so why bother with the current stuff? It seems to me that the most critical element of any tube amp is the tubes themselves. That's the last place anyone wants to scrimp.
Edits: 08/19/09
I have many pairs of 6sn7 tubes including:
1940's Ken Rad Vt231, 1940's RCA grey glass VT231, Sylvania WGTA, Sylvania VT231, 1950's Raytheon WGT Sylvania GTA/GTB chrome domes, CBS/Hytron GT and many others.
I use them as drivers for my Rogue Stereo 90 Power Amp.Guess what? They all sound good!! My preference depend on which 12AX7(5751) input tube I am using and which output tubes are in.
With JJ KT77 I go almost exclusively with the RCA Grey glass combined with Brimar 12ax7 or Raytheon 5751 windmills. This combo adds richness and tonal colour to the presentation.
With the GL KT88 reissue I like something faster sounding like the Raytheon WGT or the CBS/Hytron combined with Tele 12ax7 smoothplates or GE 5751 Blackplates.
So the best 6sn7 depends on a lot of factors including the type of sound you are looking for.
I have several grey plate no mouse ear Tung Sols and think they sound better in both driver positions and my good fortune even in a gain position. I have the TS RPs a few infact and find them extraordinarily dull and unispiring given all the hype and adoration.
Your point however I use 5751s with my GL reissues in a Jadis DA 60 and think the common enough RCA white letter triple Mica blackplate to quick but if you really want fast an anathema h to tube lovers is the recommendation of the double mica Ratheon not windmill also quick and clean but the later 60s 2 micas are faster IMHO. Still if I can get the wndml I buy them I have only a quad.
In my amp using a strong and clean /quick 12AX7 or 5751 will work well. The harder part is trying to find a 12AU7 that has those qualities so far I am stuck burning up my 7316s which are fantastic but want them to be around for a while my back ups are only about 2 deep.(X3)
Hi Mechans:
I know we are getting a little off topic but your comment about 1960's 5751 double mica tubes being "fast" has got me interested. I have a pair of RCA orange lable double mica blackplates with support rods---vintage unknown as I picked them up at a hamfest and only tried them once very briefly. Liked them I remember but they gave way to other more famous 5751. I intend to give them another try as I find the system needs more speed with the GL KT88's in. Thanks for the tip!
Astralnavigator--I am in Richmond Hill--interested in sharing/trying different tubes? Tube rolling has become a passion...........
Nt
"Live free or die"
Use a TS RP in front of a Ken Rad, and you have a very nice combo.Still, my favorite is using the 52 Sylvanias with Raytheon VT-231s.
And I really like the TS WGT as a driver tube in my amps.
Edits: 08/18/09
It dosen't matter. As long as you like them and it sounds great to you in your system, that is all you need to be concerned about. A tube in one amp may not sound good in another.
jstrm
I don't like the Russian 6H8s either.
"He (R.M. Nixon) was a foul caricature of himself, a man with no soul, no inner convictions, with the integrity of a hyena, and the style of a poison toad." H. S. Thompson
I think selected NOS will still be better than even the "boutique branded" Russian and Chinese stuff.
In fairness to both Jim and Mr. Olsher, I suspect that the tube amp in question came with OEM grade Russian or Chinese tubes, not the "boutique" grade which many report sound much better.
Boats and Fish!
;^)
Mr. McShane is mentioned because the original poster mentioned him.
The reality is that no one has heard every 6SN7 out there in every possible configuration. Trust your ears.
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