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Hi for whoever interested.I read a thread here last week inquiring if freezing a cap would degrade its sound. IMO, it is a pretty interesting subject which was discussed a lot in Cable Asylum last year. Let me round it up here.
Yes, deep freezing treatment does improve sound. Years back, I did DIY deep freezing (-30C in my basement freezer), to my silver interconnects, silver power cords, Teflon jacketed silver plated oxygen-free copper hook-up wires, tubes, caps, even my CLC line-filter chasis-mount power inlets, etc. I find their sonics are improved, period.
Deep freezing treatment to metals has been a bigtime business for decades, in automobile, power transmission, telecom, aerospace, etc,
to improve their performance. 3M, for example, established superconductivity in high purity aluminum in its deep freezing process.The proper terminolgoy of this industrial deep-freezing process is: cryogenics. It involves deep freezing down to -190C (=-310F), in a strictly (computerized) controlled environment. Improper implementation of the process will result physical damage to the material being treated due to thermal shocks.
There are many labs that carry out cryo-treatments to audio parts, components for the public, e.g. Jena Lab, Advanced Cryogenics, CryoPro, in USA, & Frozen Solid DCT, Cryogenics Services
in the U.K., etc. The process normally takes a few days (ramping
down in say, 12 hours or more, deep-freezing for say, 24 horus, & then
ramping up for some 16 hours or so to ambient temps, depending on the process) & costs as low as USD10 a lb of material. Pretty affordable, isn't it?Why deep-freezing improves sound? Most solid materials are made from
its liquid form through a shocking process. This process results the solid structure in a very irregular & irratic lattice, quite different
from its orginal natural lattice layout. It is this deviation exerting the unwanted 'residual stress' across the lattice structure. In simple layman's language, the molecules are 'dislocated'.By deep freezing the material in a PROPER-run procedure, the 'residual
stress' will be relieved (ie the 'stress' on the atomic bonds is dissipated) & the material will return to its orginal natural molecular layout. No more dislocation of its microstructure.
It provides much better flow of electronics across the conductor's
molecules, thus improving sound.Trumpets & other brass musical instruments have been found sound
better after cryo-ing. So do pianos & guitars with their metal
strings so treated.It sounds like magic! It also improves sound of a vacuum valve (or tube). How? The deep-freezing eliminates the residual molecular stress in the metals used to build the tube, & cut down the Q resonances which inherently 'live' inside the tube.
We have heard "fancy" claims that cryo-ing or even deep-freezing will
better the music recorded in a CD! Unbelievable sales pitch or what?
No, there is some scientifc explanations.Enechoic sonic measurement shows the focus servo current of the
CD player under test peaks bigtime at around 800Hz, causing the CD
resonates with it. Deep-freezing or cryo-ing will NOT shift away
the resonance frequency, but damp down the Q resonanes. Lab tests
show damping materials help to some extent, but NOT as effective as cryogenics.It has been "insiders' secrets" for years that quite some audio component/equipment makers, including speaker builders, have their electronic parts, & hardwares etc. cryoed before assembly.
IMO, cryo or deep-freeze help improve sounds.
Good deep-freeze listening
cheap-Jack
Jan 20, 2004.PS: I'll present my DIY deep-freeze report, plus some DIY LN2 cryo
experiences of others, on request.
Follow Ups:
no text
Hi all,I am aware of some super conductivity research. My take on what I have seen is that materials can be created in which the constituent atoms are orderred in such a way as to allow for the unimpeded flow of electrons.
My question here is how do these concepts apply to cryo tubes. I understand you can influence the lattice state of material by the formulation of atoms used to make the material, by the methodology used to take the material from liquid to solid form, and the temperature at which the material is maintained (I think I remember that the intitial super coductivity was observed in rather simple material at very, very low temps). But I also understand that most super conducting materials lose this property at higher temperatures (like anything greater than -80 degrees C). This would seem to suggest that increases in temp allows the intitially ordered lattice to become disordered. This in turn prevents superconductivity. (I think a good example of this is the dissimiliar crystyline states of water formed at different temps.)
How does a cryo tube maintain any changes in lattice structure when placed in circuit? You would think the heat would augment any changes that occured at lower temp?
Obviously not a material science guy,
This has nothing to do with science. Why would you want a super conducting tube in the first place? Would you change all your operating points? Could you make 500 watt el84 SE amp? The primary benefits exibited by treated materials are all related to abrasion resistance. How does that "help" tubes? To my knowedge nothing else has been shown except for unproveable qualities like "musicality". Look at the terms these folks use. None of them have any units of measure. Case closed.
JMO, John......
John,Thanks for the response. I intended to use the discusion of super conductivity as an anology to better understand the effects of temp on materials. I just did not understand what material qualities could be altered PERMAMENTLY by cryo treatment, when the material would subsequently be used at much higher temps.
So what is "abrasion resistance"?
Thanks,
Rodney,
a·bra·sion
1. The process of wearing down or rubbing away by means of friction.
2.
1. A scraped or worn area.
2. A scraped area on the skin or on a mucous membrane, resulting from injury or irritation.
[Medieval Latin abrsi, abrsin-, from Latin abrsus, past participle of abrdere, to scrape off ; see abrade.]
John,I think I could figure out the definition of the two words used in the the term. Now, could you take a shot at defining the term please?
Not trying to be an ass, (were you?) I just wanted to know what this term meant. Does it refer to irregularities formed at junctions between individual parts? Does it refer to irregularities in the surface of parts that form during the assembly process? Does it refer to stress related irregularities? I mean what the hell does it mean?
Rodney
Rodney, I'm not trying to be too big of an ass. Here you go:
I think I could figure out the definition of the two words used in the the term. Now, could you take a shot at defining the term please?(yes)Not trying to be an ass, (were you?(no)) I just wanted to know what this term meant. Does it refer to irregularities formed at junctions between individual parts?(no) Does it refer to irregularities in the surface of parts that form during the assembly process?(no) Does it refer to stress related irregularities?(no) I mean what the hell does it mean?(It's much simpler than any of that)
I wouldn't have guessed this needed defining past getting to the root words but that may be because I throw them around a lot due to my line of work.Here goes.
When two things rub against each other there is usually some friction. This usually generates some heat and typicly a little wear. The heat can dissipate but the wear is there to stay. If the wear is created by an abrasive(sandpaper) it is refered to as 'abrasive wear'. If a material can somehow resist this abrasive wear(toughness) it is called 'abrasive resistant'. This is not a property normally needed in vacuum tubes but then, what do I know? I wasn't trying to be an ass in my earlier post. If you want to see me being an ass go look at my responce to Cheap-Jack.
John..........
long day which included editting a paper from someone who does a poor job of explaining their thoughts. I hate when ill defined terms become general language without any reference to initial meaning.Anyway, thanks for the info, and I agree. I do not see how this relates to vacuum tubes. However, perhaps the expansion/ contraction at joints within a tube produce this wear. I have no idea.
Take care,
'Could you make 500 watt el84 SE amp? 'It's possible if enough EL84's are paralleled up !
'musicality' is a horrible word for describing sound , to me it's more of a cop-out for someone to justify their $5000 power cable after it has 'broken in' ;)
"'musicality' is a horrible word for describing sound…"
Would be sort of PRAT :-D
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Me fail english, thats unpossible!
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Hey-Hey!!!,
If some cold is good( liquid N2 ) more is better( liquid He ).I am on the side that this feezing is an example of psycho-acoustics, and placebo effect. I don't think any of the claimers have properly even single blind experimented.
So, for the offer, I can treat for a day or two, in N2 or He, a tube and one not. This should be a pair that is otherwise identical. I defy you to be able to tell me the difference between the two on their return.
Offer open to anybody with more than one post claiming that they can hear the difference, up to a max of ten folks with no more than two pairs of tubes each.
regards,
Douglas
Ship your gear to me and include return shipping. I'll put them out back over night and listen to it the next day and let you know. LOL ; <)
consider the treatments for a good quality knife blade. Heat, vacuum, cold...etc. It's amazing what some of these guys do. I reckon it's all about getting the grain aligned how they want it. I do a fair amount of welding and as such can tell you that proper treatment certainly makes or breaks a job especially with some metals. So I do think it's entirely possible that cyro treatment could help somewhere in the audio chain. However I feel there are certainly many much more important areas to spend your dollars first.
the goal of the metalurgists is not the same as the audio guys. If water could do all that is required, there would be no mention of Ice water quench, or salt and ice water quench, let alone stirred combinations of the above. If you are going for a complete quench, getting colder can help, by a large amount with some alloys.I am still surprised by the lack of takers to perform( honestly I hope)at least a single blind test. It is Free but for shipping one way. It is a comforting confirmation of the likely palcebo effect.
Note that the Pearl-Cryo-Vac treatment is not just a cold treatment, but also a farily rigorous selection process. Read all the fine print.
regards,
Douglas
A year ago, the same theme was on "TA" and I wrote the symilar - cryo can be used for some heating treatments that can`t be done on the room temperature, for example to "get rid of" backwarded austenite in martensite conversion in SOME steels. About 10 posts of some "true believers" followed, mostly with arguments that cryo treatment is in use in racing cars, etc. What those people don`t understand it that don`t work at all with all materials, for example "ultra strenght" Maraging steels that can be used in some critical parts in sport cars don`t benefit of Cryo treatment at all. The temperatures and time are not the same, etc. Cryoed the complex product made of various metals, oxides, plastic materials and glass without doing it "scientifically right" (hypothesis, test on many samples, measurements, conclusion, etc.) in my view are just speculations and audiofooles blablah.
Did I offend someone? :-)
Not me, that's for sure...thanks for the expanson of the Steel heat treatment.
regards,
DouglasCome on, there must be somebody who will engage in some single blind testing of this stuff. The longer it goes without takers, the less convincing you look, no matter how emphatic the "..but,but,but, I heard a difference..." wailings are.
Haven't tried it yet...so why not. What did you have in mind?
enjoy the music!
...after re-reading your offer. I don't think I qualify. Oh well.
take care> > > > > > >
enjoy the music!
What disqualifys you? I'm flexible, not trying to 'get' anybody, just after some small piece of the Truth.
regards,
Douglas
Offer open to anybody with more than one post claiming that they can hear the difference,
While I believe in the effect of cryogenics on certain metals, I question it's worth for improving the sound in ones stereo.
so...I figured what the heck. I'll give it a try. But I don't fit into the category that you mention.
Now here's something I have thought about...
I know that metal can be cryo'd to change the alignment of the molecules in certain metals. Some say this alignment produces a product that is stronger and is more resistant to wear. If the cryo process does make the metal in vacuum tubes stronger...could cryo'd tubes be less likely to fail under stress...or perhaps last longer than if they hadn't been treated?
thanks,
Dan
enjoy the music!
Hi Douglas ,
For the testing to be scientifically correct , all tubes need to be from the same batch and test electrically the same prior to freezing . FFT testing with stored screen scrapes for distortion before and after would also be useful . I agree that most of the freezing stuff is a bunch of crap but maybe proper cryo is a different story
I'm an ME so I'm naturally curious. How the hell would you determine exactly what's 'proper'? And how would you know that what you're applying is actually repeatable(not the process, the effect), or even measureable for that matter. This is why this field is a joke for all but a few exceptions. There's a huge difference between belief and fact.
JMO, John..............
I mean 'proper' by freezing to absolute zero not -30 like the post originator suggests . Freezing to -30 just makes whatever is frozen cold ! I agree there is a huge difference between belief and fact , what was suggested was a repeatable scientific method of testing before and after cryo freezing using a valve tester and FFT for measuring distortion . It is obvious that users of cryo'd valves have absolutely no way of A-B testing hence the recommendation of electrical testing before and after . I'm reluctant to admit that I'd like to try cryo'd valves but no-where in the UK offers cryo services , I have over 5000 valves to play with so the risk on my part is minimal
1. Any test conducted by a few inmates, while fun, would not contsitute scientific testing and would therefore be meaningless.
2. Tubes are "frozen" at room temperature. What we really would be doing is just making them momentarily colder.
3. I vote we change the topic. How 'bout this: Elvis, dead or alive?
What would you describe as proper? as I see things, it is not going to make a single bit of difference if anybody believes the results or not. To offer a few single blind tests, which, with care could be extended to double blind, you would consider worthless?As evidenced by the continuing arguement, instead of a que of folks with suitable matched pairs of tubes waiting for my mailing address, there won't be a result that the 'Believers' will have any Faith in.
I'd have a better cahnce of getting rich by selling creamed bacon sandwiches in Gaza....
regards,
Douglas
Doug wrote:
I'd have a better cahnce of getting rich by selling creamed bacon sandwiches in Gaza....I write:
hey Doug!! can I get that in a combo? supersized? :-)
ron
cryo shipping is going to be 'spensive...
'How 'bout this: Elvis, dead or alive?'Elvis being alive has far more credibility than tubes in the bloody freezer next to burgers and frozen veg sounding better !
'Tubes are "frozen" at room temperature. What we really would be doing is just making them momentarily colder.'
I know , I know , but try telling that to the original poster , he's still probably trying to find an excuse to justify the claims he made in the first place .
ps . Did you look at the Peter Belt link I posted further down ? Just make sure you aren't drinking coffee over your keyboard when you're reading it !
.
You don't need to convince me that in theory "deep freezing" can improve the sound of tubes, etc. What surprises me is that you hear any effect of -30 degrees C, the temperature you say you can attain in your basement freezer. As you yourself note, most facilities that provide "cryo" treatments take the temperature down much, much lower than that. In fact, the closer one can get to absolute zero (the temp at which molecular motion ceases), the better. Your freezer temperature is "only" equal to -22 degrees F, an (admittedly VERY cold for humans) temperature that has not been uncommon outdoors in the northernmost parts of the US in the past week.
You don't need to convince me that in theory "deep freezing" can improve the sound of tubes, etc. What surprises me is that you hear any effect of -30 degrees C, the temperature you say you can attain in your basement freezer. As you yourself note, most facilities that provide "cryo" treatments take the temperature down much, much lower than that. In fact, the closer one can get to absolute zero (the temp at which molecular motion ceases), the better. Your freezer temperature is "only" equal to -22 degrees F, an (admittedly VERY cold for humans) temperature that has not been uncommon outdoors in the northernmost parts of the US in the past week.
we had temperature of -50 here last week .I'm a two weeler and although i dress the part, it was nice to come back home to me tube rig.
The sound was open with lots of warm air...
cheap-jackI have on several occasions I replaced tubes with
the same name tubes with cryo treatment and always
found the cryo'd tubes more relaxed and musical.I know this could be explained away by others-
a better batch, better matching or by "suggestion".There are always some that will always believe
"the world is flat", "man cannot fly" or
"CD's can never sound good".Science will never convince these people and
they will never allow themselves to be convinced
by direct experience.Science(or spec's)don't tell the whole story either.
How many times did people hear something and then
came up with spec's to quantify what they heard.I have constantly been blown away by things
that I have not completely understood -
1st Interconnects effects sound
2nd Power Cables effects sound
3rd CD mats do work
**On less than stellar transports**
4th deguassing CD's do work
5th feet under componants do workThe thing is to keep an open mind and listen.
Let your ears decide.
This is not as easy as it sounds but -
well worth the effort.I know that I am probably speaking heresy
to those people but it needs to be said.If it sounds better to you THEN IT IS BETTER -
no matter what others may say.Everyone has opinions,
and I don't begrudge them that right.
But I don't think the rest of us should give them
more credence than listening with our own ears.Open mind and open ears.
DanL
Hi Dan.This is another "open ears" subject you just mentioned. I know there is some science in it, but I don't want to bother.
Here is my experience in a joint audition of a certain brandname CD
'cooker' which an audiophile friend of mine brought over to me a couple years back.I used my test CDs as the 'guinea pigs' & got degaussed for about 20 seconds each (duration adjustable). The CD cooker made some loud vibration noise from the CDs.
I played the treatd CDs immediately afterwards. The entire sound perspectives changed to 'something else' which I couldn't even recognise. We were not impressed at all.
I was sweating my pants, worrying the destiny of my test CDs. Strange enough, after only a few minutes of playing, the original sonic perspectives of the CD returned to its orginal untreated
quality which we all enjoyed again. Thanks Almighty! Amen.With my setup there, we couldn't detect any change, to better or worse, after the treatment despite some temporary sonic 'turbulences'
did occurred initially.The joint verdict from that audition was: "all thumbs down" - to return the CD cooker to the vendor. My friend did so. Listening is
believing!Good un-degaussed-CD listening
I use my Bedini Ultra Clarifier and have
good results on each of my systems to date.
It does spin at a high rate, and
it has two deguassers in each unit.
which might be what makes it work.
Only guessing here?!?!
I hear better rhythm and more texture using it.Also have the Marigo Crossbow Mat, which
works the best of the mats out there. IMHO
Tried many and this worked the best.
It worked in the mechanical - to balance the CD
the electrical - carbon to discharge static
and the optical - black to absorb light. FWIW*Except none worked in the Jolida.
It didn't have the clearance I guess.
Marantz CD players have the same problem.DanL
P.S.
Transports used:
CAL Delta
CAL CL-10
Cambridge DiscMagic
Jolida JD100
Hi Dan.Experience speaks. Great minds think alike. You have said what I intend to say. Much appreciated! I wish there are more sensible & open
minds like yours around.Ignorance is not a guilt. Comments on sheer speculation, disbelief, yet without substantiation is not a virtue either. I have seen enough here.
One disbeliever even "guaranteed" some Tibetan Buddha chants would
improve the sound like a chime! Hopefully, that was only a home-loner's nutshell facination. Apparently he applied the same chimes to his "fantastic" sounding DIY power amp which he claimed he built from scraps & trash. When times come, I might even volunteer to be his
free marketing agent to sell his Tibetan chimes (assumbly patented)
to audiophile audio makers worldwide so that "fantastic" sounding
hi-end equipment can be built at low low cost with dirt cheap Radio-Shack grade parts & sold to audio Joe Blows at low low prices. Using his chimes, he must be kicking butts, bigtime!!!!!Yes, you are correct. DIY deep freeze., like my humble -30C freezer
experience, is NOT, repeat NOT, comparable to industrial cryogenics.
But it works for me, bigtime, provided of course, it is implemented PROPERLY like what I did. You said the sonic upgrading by similar home-brewn deep-freezes will not be so lasting, & need 'recharging'
from time to time. I am not sure of that. 'Cause I am positive I have yet to detect any sound degrading back to the pre-deep-freeze era from my treated stuff.Let me put one of the sonic improvements on my rig in perspective.
One of my sonic test programmes is taken from my favourite 25-year-young stereo LP - a male vocal soloist accompanied by an acoutical guitarist. The male vocal comes out from the dead centre of the soundstage about 10-feet away, & the guitarist just stand right
in front of me about 3 feet to my left. I can detect clearly &
repeatedly everytime without fail, the twanging noises of the guitarist's fingers touching the strings, from three times before deep-freeze, to nine times after deep-freeze.It reveals more inner details of the music textures, to say the least.
"Open mind & open ears" - fully concurred. What one can't hear from its own rig doen't mean it is not there anywhere else.
Good deep-freeze listening
cheap-Jack
Jan 21, 2004.PS: for whoever interested to dig into cryogenics,
tons of books on the same subject are available from
KK Library @www.kimber.com. Also on-line info@www.cryogenics.com.
nt
Hi,Not much new info here compared to the first post…
(Which would have been appreciated)Do you "deep freeze" would work equaly well on the cartridge as well?
mvh /Pär
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Me fail english, thats unpossible!
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How have you determined that your freezer technique is optimal? You say in the above post that:
"Yes, you are correct. DIY deep freeze., like my humble -30C freezer
experience, is NOT, repeat NOT, comparable to industrial cryogenics.
But it works for me, bigtime, provided of course, it is implemented PROPERLY like what I did. You said the sonic upgrading by similar home-brewn deep-freezes will not be so lasting, & need 'recharging'
from time to time. I am not sure of that. 'Cause I am positive I have yet to detect any sound degrading back to the pre-deep-freeze era from my treated stuff."
Based on your acute observations I would surmise that your methods are actually superior to industrial cryogenics. I'm wondering if you have tried repetitively applying the freeze/thaw cycle to see if there is some sort of cumulative effect? I'm hoping to someday have Britney pop right out of my speakers to say hello, and other thing, and you seem to be on the right track. Great minds don't need to, but should, keep it scientific. That way the rest of us will understand your greatness.
John.....
...You bought cryo'd tubes and liked the improvement you heard. Cryo'd metal and metal put in a freezer are two different things.
Yes cryo and deep freezing are different but also the same.
Deep freezing is temporary while proper cryo is permanent.
The effect is the same sonically.
What I understand from ME's I know,
deep freezing is negated over time by the naturally occurring thermals and electrical currents until there is no difference.
You need to bring the material to below -200F before
permanent molecular change takes place.
If you do a deep freeze it and like it's sonic signature,
then cryo it for permanent upgrade.
Otherwise, like many antistatic devices, you will have to
regularly treat the unit to enjoy it's sonic benefits.DanL
nt
.
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
- Angela Monet
"If music be the food of love, PLAY ON!" I'm a Austin Nichols Wild Turkey man myself! And Mogen David extra heavy melago wine and lime juice. Puts hair on your chest! James
Freezing anything to -30 below 0 does little more than get the item cold for a short period of time. Seriously...you ain't doing a thing to the alignment of the molecules in the metal. Your not even geting close to the temperature of 240f or lower, where they say this deep freezing process starts.
"IMO, cryo or deep-freeze help improve sounds."That's nice...and that is debatable...but what your doing isn't anything other than making someonething cold.
take care> > > > > > > > >
"Deep freezing treatment to metals has been a bigtime business for decades, in automobile, power transmission, telecom, aerospace, etc,
to improve their performance. 3M, for example, established superconductivity in high purity aluminum in its deep freezing process."
I think ageing by freezing (common aluminium treatment) and superconductivity by keeping it cold is two quite different things…"Why deep-freezing improves sound? Most solid materials are made from
its liquid form through a shocking process. This process results the solid structure in a very irregular & irratic lattice, quite different
from its orginal natural lattice layout. It is this deviation exerting the unwanted 'residual stress' across the lattice structure. In simple layman's language, the molecules are 'dislocated'."
And the atoms and crystalline structure (or whatever present strukture) are more free to "relocate" itself by heat, atoms and its parts are more free to move when energized . which is the same thing as heat. In a freezed state the "dislocations" are more probable to remain. Anealin by freezing is a quite odd concept, though other properties may reached."Enechoic sonic measurement shows the focus servo current of the
CD player under test peaks bigtime at around 800Hz, causing the CD
resonates with it. "
Wouldn't the proper solution be to change time constants in the servo. It's a bit philosophical but i do insist that the problem should be solved instead of being hidden…"IMO, cryo or deep-freeze help improve sounds."
If you take a tour in the TubeAA you'll se a lot of "humble opinions" which over time seems to contradict each other…mvh /Pär
p.s
No doubt deep freezing changes things - but is it the straightest way to get the result? or are the results the best possible given time/cost (C/B)?
Even reheating the solder on a "boom box" will improve sound, but tossing it into the bin and get real would probably be better in a cost/benefit analysis…
d.s
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Me fail english, thats unpossible!
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Par wrote:
"And the atoms and crystalline structure (or whatever present strukture) are more free to "relocate" itself by heat, atoms and its parts are more free to move when energized . which is the same thing as heat. In a freezed state the "dislocations" are more probable to remain. Anealin by freezing is a quite odd concept, though other properties may reached."I think he is entirely correct. The more heat: the more movement of the molecular structure. That's why solids become fluid when heated enough. Freezing would of course have just the opposite effect. I have long been skeptical in the extreme about such things as cryo treatment. The believers in such things will I think, never be convinced that they are not being sold a bill of goods.
Ron
> The believers in such things will I think,
> never be convinced that they are not
> being sold a bill of goods.I contend that most unbelievers
would never be convinced that it does work.
As the believers in "the world is flat",
would not chance falling off the edge.
It would alter their world view,
In both cases.DanL
What happens when you plug the parts back in and run them up to working voltages [and heat]? I speak particularly about the plates and filaments in tubes.
One point to note is that kovar is used for valve pins on glass-based valves such as B9a and B7a types . Kovar has a similar temperature coefficient to glass and contracts/expands with it according to temperature . The problem is that once the valve is placed in the freezer the pins will contract as will the glass so this would carry a definite risk of air leaks and loss of vacuum (please correct me if I'm wrong!) . Cryo I guess would freeze the whole valve instantly , whereas placing the valve in a freezer would gradually lower the temperature . Is freezing a possibility for shortening valve life with absolutely zero benefits for sonics ? I can see no scientific reason why freezing would have any benefits whatsoever .
LOL! What if the only thing we are hearing (and I DO hear a difference) is the sonic effects of a loss of vacuum?And that change will not last long if we are causing early tube failure!
Reminds me of a story I heard about a group of people that ate a meal of poison mushrooms. Right before they died, the mentioned how very good the mushrooms tasted.
Don't forget the colors.I have also heard stories of experiencing hypothermia...
Hellacool. :)
Hello ,
Possibly . The problem is that without measurement there is no proof . Without proof scientific or otherwise I'm instantly sceptical , the laws of physics seem to be broken left , right and centre with some of these so-called 'tweaks' . And there's no way the claimant can carry out A-B tests ! So as far as I'm concerned it's complete BS , there's no proof , no measurement , just heresay and certainly no science . If Jack could actually explain the theory behind the deep freezing this would be a start but were still none the wiser and I doubt he's ever cryo'd anything whatsoever ;)
I would expect the CoE to show up whether the tube is frozen / thawed slowly or quickly. How long does it take to burn in these [cryoed] tubes? :)I just went through Heathrow....Now that's something.
So can we all say "double blind testing please".
Hi.Cryogenics & deep-freeze can handle most things under the sun,
from audio tubes to womens' panty-hoses, not confined to cables & wires only.If you want to play politics, why don't you voice your concerns
to the moderator by hitting the 'commnet' button at the bottom of the posts. Be my guest!If you were an activist in Cable Asylum, you should know very well
the rule there - no DBT allowed. Propellor Head Plaza is the rightful
venue for DBT.Good listening
I don't think the cryo process can even stand a single blind test. Even if you use He instead of N. So let's try some SBT and see if the cold even can show itself through that.I don't think that proposing a bit of experimentation could be reason to get a moderator involved, unless you want to give the moderators a giggle too.
So here it is, I am calling for a single person who can claim a real SBT on the cryo process, that heard a diff between the two. Just a cryo dip, no other selection, and tubes that were as close to identical beforehand( or at least close enough that a DBT could not sseperate them).
Is there anybody who can step up with this qualification?
regards,
Douglas
I have a quad of VA EL34's that came with
my Jolida 202 w Parts Connexion/UnderwoodWally upgrade.
I then purchased a quad of Cryo'd VA EL-34's from ATSI.
The cryo'd ones are sweeter and more defined
than the non-cryo'd ones.
They also had a lower noise floor.
It is more than subtle but not stark difference.
Easily noticable.
I realize that they weren't of the same batch,
or the same run.
But for those interested,
they are well worth the little extra bucks.
and then after, or could tell us what if anything ATSL does other than chill the tubes...
regards,
Douglas
anyway, the fact that you like them, is enough for you. I would say that it isn't enough for me. Shoot, the cryo-d tubes I did could not even set themselves apart on a zero blind test, when I knew what I was listening to. Of course it might be because I can't hear, or my system is crap, and not capable of resolving that sort of subtle thing.
> By deep freezing the material in a PROPER-run procedure, > the 'residual stress' will be relieved (ie the 'stress' on the > atomic bonds is dissipated) & the material will return to its > orginal natural molecular layout. No more dislocation of its > microstructure. It provides much better flow of electronics across > the conductor's molecules, thus improving sound.Hmmmm. I see. Sounds like New Age marketspeak to me.
Might I suggest reading an elementary book on statistical
mechanics so that you understand exactly which physical forces
come into play near "room temperature" here on earth - that is around
300 Kelvin.And what is this "residual stress" on the "atomic bonds?" Is it the
minimum of the potential energy barrier function? That is generally
orders of magnitude above kT. Further, what are the "natural
structures" of the molecules? Do you mean entire thermal orbit
of a molecule include all of the allowed translational, rotational
and vibrational energy levels allowed??Generally, I prefer an alternative treatment to freezing things.
Go down to Chinatown and look for the tiny porcelain Buddha
statues that they sell in the shops. The ones that are, oh, about
an inch high are perfect. Now, arrange several dozen of the
Buddha statues on the amp chassis. Insert sticks of incense into
the loose space between the sockets and pins of each tube, you might
need, oh about 30 sticks of incense. Light the incense and
sprinkle Ghee on the entire amplifier while playing any recording
of Tibetan Buddhist chant through the amplifier into an 8 ohm
dummy load only (if you do with with your speakers plugged in it
will excite Negative Karmic Resonances).Be very careful not to upset the Buddha figurines. They can lash out
in fits of rage.Further, you need to abstain from sex for at least a week to insure
full component breakin. Leave the several dozen Buddha figurines
in place. This is guaranteed to work, and it sounds much much
better than 1942 date Vitamin Q caps from North Adams Massachusetts
or single black plate 5692 with Pentagram getters!-- Jim
nt
Jim,I have heard that freezing under high vacuum makes the music really sublime.
Hi Jim ,
With ghee you need small statues of Ganesh and sprinkles of gramm flour on the amp chassis , Ravi Shankar loaded in the pre-frozen CD player with $5000 cryo treated power cables . Use chunks of chicken tikka as topcap insulators on your 866A's otherwise the tweak won't work . The freezer itself must also be treated as follows prior to treating whatever-it-is in the freezer'Treating the deep freezer unit.
As many of you will realise, some of our customers who have been
using our devices and techniques for at least 15 years, will have
most of the Foils and devices we have introduced over these past 18
years and will, as they received them over the years, have gradually
attached a strip of all the Foils and gradually, over the years,
attached many of the devices to the deep freezer as well as to much
of their equipment. So, the recommendations for 'treating' a deep
freezer which follow are offered on the understanding that most of
our new customers will have some (if not many) of our latest Foils
and devices and will not have very many of the earlier Foils and
devices.If you are intending to 'P.W.B.' the deep freezer, then you should
consider applying the full colour Ring Tie sequence to the AC power
cable. Failing that, at least the first two colours (Red and Yellow
Ring Ties) should be attached to each extreme end of the power cable
and (at least) a small area of the cable's insulation 'creamed' with
Cream-Electret. Preferably, for a greater effect, one should use a
small amount of the new Morphic Green Cream.
Because it is not possible to attach devices and Foils to the inside
of the deep freezer, one has to 'treat' the outside of the freezer
cabinet. As many strips of the different P.W.B. Foils as possible
should be attached to the outside of the cabinet and beneficial
messages should be written with the Red 'x' Pen and attached to the
cabinet. Most definitely, a beneficial message label should be
attached giving the Brand name of the deep freezer followed by O.K.
I do not doubt that many of our long standing customers will have a
wide variety of different 'treatments' on their deep freezer. One
thing you have to remember though is that the more you 'treat' your
deep freezer unit, the better will be the sound in your listening
room, irrespective of whether you have frozen any objects.If one is going to all the trouble and effort to 'treat' the deep
freezer in order to 'freeze' items of audio equipment as well as
general objects, then one should also consider 'treating' the item of
audio equipment prior to carrying out the freezing technique. At
least a small patch of the Morphic Green Cream should be applied to
the item of equipment or, if available, a Gold Foil square should be
attached to the body of the equipment and a small amount of the
Morphic Green Cream applied to the Gold Foil square.
Don't forget to consider all the interconnects and power cables, -
they are easily forgotten when concentrating on items of equipment.
My recommendation to people is always to experiment when considering
carrying out the freezing technique.
1) Compacts Discs. If you are unsure, do not freeze your favourite
CD first, experiment initially with another CD. I know that
everyone will have a CD which they never play, which they do not like
the sound of, which they originally purchased because of it's
musical content and then became disappointed in it's sound. So I
always recommend that they find that CD, listen to it again and then
put it through the freezing treatment and listen to it again.
2) Similarly with interconnects. I also know that people will have
an el-cheapo interconnect somewhere in a drawer or cupboard. An
interconnect which came included with (say) the tape recorder or
tuner but which they discarded in favour of a more expensive
interconnect. Listen to the el-cheapo interconnect, confirm that you
still do not like to sound of it, then put the el-cheapo interconnect
through the freezing process and then listen to it again !!
If you hear improvements each time, that should give you the
confidence to carry on freezing other things.'I didn't make this up by the way , see link for more details
...FB
put several photographic self portraits in my treated freezer next to my CD's. The pics of my wife, though, don't seem to have improved her in the same ways.
if you want her to lose weight
...but did you treat the freezer as per the instructions with rainbow foil , electret cream and morphic messages ? Maybe that's where you went wrong :) I have been close to shoving the wife in the freezer before (due to uncontrollable verbal spam) but I needed a cook and bottle-washer .ps look out ! Jack's going to call us all idiots and that this is the tweak of the century . He'll say he can actually hear a difference through his 12AX7/50C5 'SET' with it's $5 (250Hz-10kHz) output transformers and grid leak biasing after freezing CD's , cables , valves and so on...........
> Light the incense and sprinkle Ghee on the entire amplifier while playing any recording of Tibetan Buddhist chant through the amplifier into an 8 ohm dummy load only (if you do with with your speakers plugged in it will excite Negative Karmic Resonances).This only works if you repeat the chant yourself while devouring a steaming bowl of chicken feet. Even then, it's only a close runnerup to sonic lacquer.
> cut down the Q resonances which inherently 'live' inside the tube.I'd like to see before-after data on this point. Many aspects of audio refinement are subjective, but resonance should be measurable. It would be interesting to know the extent to which any peaks or valleys are smoothed following cryo treatment.
i would look to the concept of cryo treating musical instruments.you might even find some testing that has already been done.
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