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100.14.59.193
For lowest noise, what is the proper orientation, proper way to connect the outside foil, of film output coupling caps in a phono preamp? If it depends on the circuit, can I just measure the resistance from either side of the capacitor to a ground reference? Do you consider the input impedance of the equipment (preamp) it's hooked up to?
Thanks.
Follow Ups:
You are probably aware that there are many YouTube videos that show how to test film cap orientation.
Also how to connect the cap in circuit.
DT667
Thank you! The you-tube you post is
excellent and true.
Audio equipment that can't distinguish between
correct and backwards capacitor installation is----
shall we say-- anti-transparent-- and is, therefore,
incapable of rendering music fully?
We think about that.......
-Dennis-
"Audio equipment that can't distinguish between
correct and backwards capacitor installation is----
shall we say-- anti-transparent-- and is, therefore,
incapable of rendering music fully?"
Build a "Korneff derived" SE 45 or 2A3 circuit and it is doubtful that the orientation of film caps would make a subjective difference.
That's OK for non-competitive audio applications typical of most end users.
Film capacitor orientation might make a difference to the MLP design team or others trying to create "world class" SE tube amplifiers.
DT667
A SET is different from a p/p, or a diff-amp.
The SET, if built in a transparent manner
(power supply caps not too large, excellent
layout, good grounding scheme, use of brass parts,
silver wiring, use of circuit standoffs where needed,
careful avoidance of excessive plate currents-- even
to the point of slightly lessening full power linearity--
then such an amplifier will easily reproduce everything
you can throw at it-- not just in usable
frequency response, but also, in fast rise times,
and in shades & colors of music, micro
and macro dynamics, and depth of and placement
of multiple-layered sonic images..
That kind of attention to detail will allow
reproduction of nuance on a level that other
amps can't, and do not, match sonically.
In such an amplifier, it becomes obvious
when a high quality capacitor is installed
backwards.
IAR/TRT is one place where this has been
discussed over the years, JACMUSIC.COM has
linked to others, Michael Percy Audio has
extensive knowledge of this subject.
Dynamicaps, Mundorf Silver/Oils, etc., have proponents
that install the caps one way, while another guy
might purposely install one backwards, while trying
to obtain better overall tonality, not quite
realizing that if the cap is installed correctly,
he won't be getting any wild effects, but will
instead, simply get the best that the cap can offer.
To each his own.
-Dennis-
Thanks DF.
Your thoughtful replies will certainly help novice SE tube amp builders reach their full potential and become superior human beings.
Perhaps there will be a few reading your posts on "film capacitor orientation" that will reap the harvest of knowledge you have presented in this thread.
DT667
"and become superior human beings"
You sound like a Nazi.
You need professional help.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"You sound like a Nazi.""You need professional help."
Digressing to standard "nazi" accusations is typical of someone who is acting with emotion and without logic.
The year is 2021 , not 1939. There are no real Nazi's.
DT667
Edits: 07/18/21
Can you tell me what you meant by "superior human beings"
I didn't call you a Nazi. I said you sounded like one.
"There are no real Nazi's"
Many people would disagree with you about that.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"I didn't call you a Nazi. I said you sounded like one."
SOP for "cancel culture" exponents who wish to silence people they find objectionable is the refer to them as "racist, supremist, fascist or Nazi."
Such is the motivation for these sinister accusations directed toward the "deathtube 667" moniker.
The rest of the comments posted below in this thread are typical of the shill honking of geese at a public park. All noise and little substance.
Please enjoy a wonderful day, sir.
DT667
I don't wish to silence you. I would, however, like you to answer the question.
How does knowing how to properly install a capacitor make a person a "superior human being"?
I think it's a good question. The way you said it, it makes it sound like you believe that people, like the "MLP", are somehow "better" than the rest of us.
Is that what you believe?
Get a grip man, this is just audio electronics. In the end it makes no real difference to anyone. It's just air pressure changes.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"you believe that people, like the "MLP", are somehow "better" than the rest of us."DT667 has an interest in those who are "top performers" in their chosen field. People who are committed to excellence and are having an impact on the lives of others in a meaningful way.
DT667 would cite DF and the MLP design team , Tom Brady or Army Rangers as examples of those individuals who don't just set the bar, they are the standard by which all are measured against.
And those individuals are "better" than average civilians and are the "superior human beings" for a variety of reasons.
Studying and adopting the habits of the above mentioned individuals and groups of people will assist the average citizens in elevating their game, whatever that might be.
Or you can be a person that just resigns themselves to being average and have mediocre outcomes in life.
DT667
Edits: 07/21/21
I know 4 Navy SEALs and 1 Army Ranger. They don't think like you do.
"I know 4 Navy SEALs and 1 Army Ranger. They don't think like you do."
DT667 knows 5 Seals, 2 Power Rangers and a Secret Squirrel.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
You forgot the Loons...-..the Montana Loon Panel.
Edits: 07/20/21
If you have any doubts, continue...LOL
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
You realize the answer is simple- 'A' or 'B'. Outer foil to plate, not grid as it is lowest resistance to ground. Or, use metal case that is grounded. Simple as that. No reason for all the complicated answers.
"You realize the answer is simple- 'A' or 'B'. Outer foil to plate, not grid as it is lowest resistance to ground. Or, use metal case that is grounded. Simple as that. No reason for all the complicated answers."
There are variables that factor into the equation for success.
That will separate "Joe average" from "next level" of SE tube amp builders.
The "psychology" of building a SE tube amplifier also comes into play.
So, it is never as simple as "A or B" options in any aspect of the game.
DT667
Then, you are stating a coupling capacitor sounds different in one direction.
Than, explain to me a third way to connect the coupling capacitor?
"Than, explain to me a third way to connect the coupling capacitor?"
The third way to connect a "coupling capacitor" is the infinite impedance way - the leadout wires are connected to air and not to anything else in the audio circuit. The capacitor is left in a parts bin where it can do no harm.
It is much better to avoid using a "coupling capacitor" if possible in your 2-stage SE tube amp circuits unless a "mid-fi" result is acceptable.
Sometimes "mid-fi" is good enough for a secondary audio system.
DT667
"The third way to connect a "coupling capacitor" is the infinite impedance way - the leadout wires are connected to air and not to anything else in the audio circuit. The capacitor is left in a parts bin where it can do no harm.
It is much better to avoid using a "coupling capacitor" if possible in your 2-stage SE tube amp circuits unless a "mid-fi" result is acceptable.
Sometimes "mid-fi" is good enough for a secondary audio system."
I enjoy my mid-fi.
Everything is a compromise - including direct coupling.
"I enjoy my mid-fi."
That is not the mindset of MLP design team members or others who want to be the absolute best in competitive audiophile environments like trade shows.
"Everything is a compromise - including direct coupling."
Men like DF "never compromise" and that is why he has dominated listening rooms at RMAF since 2004. Everything must be "state of the art" technology to be brought before a public audience.
That being said, "mid-fi" gear can sound OK but have realistic expectations for performance. Good for basements, bedrooms or the garage but not center stage auditions.
DT667
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Like I said, if there was any value to it, I would show you just how mistaken you are. It is a worthless exercise, and the worst I could do is to let you keep your ideas.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"Like I said, if there was any value to it, I would show you just how mistaken you are. It is a worthless exercise, and the worst I could do is to let you keep your ideas."
Another positive and motivational comment from the "Pork Projector", LOL.
You have a special and blessed day, sir.
DT667
good luck wid that... :) You will figure it out eventually. I have an 'I told you so' all packaged and waiting.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I do believe this is directed at the person behind the moniker.
And just to recall one of your favourites; if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck, or at least wants everybody to think of it as a duck.
I'll put you another question, should the stuff we accuse you of supporting be granted further license? In short, do you think it a good idea? You have written kindly of the movement leadership and ideals...
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Neo-Nazi
There are some real Nazi's still living. They are not worth much to that basic movement thanks to their actual involvement in The Real Thing.
The current crop is after the same basic thing, though the contemporary situation requires a slightly different colour of feathers. It is a good thing we did not wind up with a second term from Jake Featherston.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I guess the Golden Dawn was/is a real problem in Greece.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I've seen some 'tell' of persons putting the Outer Wind of a film cap to the HIGH SIDE...
Or some such. That' might be decent rule of thumb to follow?
Too much is never enough
Only accomplished, tournament grade Fizbin players know all the rules to follow about capacitors.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
especially when dealt a kronk if I remember correctly
which I don't, since I was rendered unconscious
; )
Even the COMPLETE rules for 'GO' (asian board game) are only a couple pages....
Too much is never enough
I think you might miss the basis of Fizbin.
GO is a fine game... :)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I saw EVERY episode of Star Trek multiple times. Even the origna SECOND Pilot (Where No Man Has Gone Before) as well as the 1st pilot which was RECUT with added stuff with the cast that made it to TV. That would be 'The Cage'.....I think the FIRST pilot which was a little too much for the network execs.
Anyway, I know about fizbin....The episode.....A Piece Of The Action is maybe my single favorite...
I just brought GO into it because of its simple set of rules as contrasted to Fizbin where he made-em-up as we went along...
Many people do not know that Majel Barret was the ORIGINAL Captain....I think replaced by Tab Hunter for the 2nd pilot than Captain Jerk for the remainder.
Too much is never enough
Did you see the Deep Thought GO tournament? It was remarkable.
Never saw it, but DO realize that of the 3 major 'basic' board games, that GO was the last to be successfully played by computer.
Checkers was EASY. Chess took quite a while and GO even longer.
I'd LOVE to see a computer try its electrons on MONOPOLY!
Too much is never enough
The documentary was just incredible
It wasn't Deep Thought. It was Alpha GO. You should watch the documentary. It was remarkable
View YouTube Video
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thanks!
Explaining Featherston to dead tube 33-1/3 is going to be a wee more difficult... LOL
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
you are so damn funny...
If there was any value in a win, I'd offer to clean your clock with an amp doing so many 'wrong' things you'd claim it could not even pass a signal.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"If there was any value in a win, I'd offer to clean your clock with an amp doing so many 'wrong' things you'd claim it could not even pass a signal."Find a trade show where "world class" audio products manufacturers are present and rent a demo room if Pak Protector is interested in audio competitions.
Set the bar high or why bother leaving the basement?
DT667
Edits: 07/16/21
You don't know how far you have slipped. You sound ridiculous man. You should compare your recent posts to those from a few years ago, you would see the difference. Good luck and stay safe.
"You don't know how far you have slipped. You sound ridiculous man. You should compare your recent posts to those from a few years ago, you would see the difference. Good luck and stay safe."
If anything, DT667 has taken his AA posts to a new level of hard truths regarding SE tube audio and life in general.
Website analytics show constantly improving traffic, so DT667 knows that his content is reaching a wider audience.
DT667's content is for mature minds only.
If AA forum participants can't handle it, don't read posts generated by the "deathtube 667" moniker.
Save yourself the emotional turmoil and have a nice day.
DT667
I once read a website written by an idiot. I am sure my visit got classified the same way you classify all yours.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
" I once read a website written by an idiot. I am sure my visit got classified the same way you classify all yours."I almost spit out my beer laughing at that one!
Edits: 07/25/21
" I once read a website written by an idiot. I am sure my visit got classified the same way you classify all yours."
"I almost spit out my beer laughing at that one!"
Rage getting really drunk and barfing cheap beer on Pork Perfector's new carpet at their next audio club aka silly geese flock meeting.
Keep honking.
DT667
I miss the silly geese flock meetings.
I bet you'd enjoy trolling at them DT. You do a good job here.
"I bet you'd enjoy trolling at them DT. You do a good job here."
JDM was always better at preaching gospels of "LOW DCR and LSES SE tube amplifiers" than anyone except the Master DF.
DT667 on occasion refers to those individuals to support an argument with less intellectually thrifty individuals he encounters on AA forums.
It is like doing a master's thesis and citing reference materials.
There is no "trolling" from the "deathtube 667" moniker , only truths.
Some can cope with that, others not so much.
DT667
I do not much concern as long as both channels have the capacitor orientation the same. However, I use paper in oil with a grounded metal body for phono sections due to potential noise issues. Russian K40Y-9 work well. How to ground the metal capacitor body? Use bare stranded copper wire same length of capacitor body using heat shrink to compressed the wire against the capacitor metal body. I fan out the copper wire for more contact surface.
Edits: 08/02/21
In applications much less sensitive to noise, such as a CAN-based control system, such measures on the cable shields always result in too much noise. A much more robust solution is required.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
As long as the added shunt capacitance is taken into account.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It was not my intention to see you waste any beer. Or cause a need to do laundry cleaning up said wasted beer.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"I once read a website written by an idiot. I am sure my visit got classified the same way you classify all yours."Thanks for letting us know that you can read a website.
Have a pleasant evening.
DT667
Edits: 07/16/21
Normally outer foil is connected to the plate at tube in coupling circuits. For connecting to ground, use the outer foil. I only pay attention to phono sections that can pick up noise. But, I use metal jacket paper in oil and ground the metal jacket using heat shrink over the uninsulated wire. This is the most quiet method.
This was very helpful. Things are not always what they seem.
It makes little difference in most circuits which end is attached where. The capacitor exhibits a low impedance between its two leads, usually much lower than the common mode impedance of either point to which it is connected. Because of this, noise picked up on the outer foil (if there is an outer foil) will appear at virtually the same amplitude on both ends of the cap.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
If it doesn't matter, help me understand then why the videos showing film capacitors connected to an oscilloscope show an induced signal larger in one direction than another when the test leads are switched. I actually can see this when my caps are connected to a scope. Is this test not representative of actual circuit conditions?Since I could install the caps either way, can I test resistance on either side of the cap to ground with a DVM to determine the lower impedance point?
I really appreciate your help here. Thanks.
Edits: 07/13/21
"Is this test not representative of actual circuit conditions?"
That is correct. The scope test is only useful for identifying which lead is connected to the foil. It doesn't represent actual circuit conditions. In actual use, the impedance of the capacitor itself reduces the differential induced across it. In addition, the outer foil is not a continuous, all-encompassing shield. Currents induced on the outside of the shield are free to travel to the inside surface, where they can, in turn, induce additional current on the adjacent layer. Even the scope test makes it evident that the outer foil is grossly imperfect as a shield. Connecting the probe to the inner connection does not entirely eliminate the external coupling, even when the foil is grounded. Consider how much less effective the shielding is likely to be when the foil is elevated above AC ground by the impedance of the stage driving the capacitor.
This is not to say that both ends of the coupling capacitor will be identically affected by voltages resulting from external fields. However, the real result is much less significant in practice than many people realize. In addition to these caps, unwanted pickup also takes place through the many unshielded component leads, vacuum tubes, etc. For all these reasons, "correct" orientation usually offers no real benefit in real world use.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
"can I test resistance on either side of the cap to ground with a DVM to determine the lower impedance point? "
No. The impedance on the source side will be the output impedance of the stage. You can't just measure that with an ohm meter. On the destination side it will be the grid resistor so that can me measured with a meter.
In almost all cases the output impedance of the source side will be lower than the grid resistor value of the destination.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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