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after living with LRS for a year and hearing tons of speakers in that price range ( 650 usa ) I have come to the conclusion that provided you have a high current amp - they can not be beat.anyone care to challenge the above comments and provide a better speaker under a grand ?
"No matter how much you spend on your stereo, getting it to sound like the real thing isn't a given, folks. In the midrange, the LRS sounds like the real thing. " - The Absolute Sound
(if you think that you can find better for $650 new all I have to say is " good luck with that " )
Edits: 10/23/21 10/24/21Follow Ups:
I've never heard the LRS's, nor any Magnapans for that matter, but that won't stop me from babbling on and on and on, pretending to be some audio sage from the mountains and valleys. In fact, since I've never even seen Magnapans in person, I'm going to double down and waste bandwidth with over a dozen posts in this thread and counting, just babbling and lecturing and pontificating, cause I'm so important in my own mind.
So, do I like the LRS's? Do I hate them? I'll never tell, cause my whole point's to belittle you and lecture you, rather than offer constructive, useful advice and information.
To start, I'm going to start babbling about engineering terms and science, without having a clue, or any training about either. Hell, as of right now, I can't even do long division without a calculator.
What I can do is toss out some college-stoner pseudo-philosoph crap; such as:
...Great ironies befall us when the world is up, because we are down, and ribbons synthesize sound sideways with characteristics verified and falsified, leading to expectations of poultry in motion...
There. There? Right on.
The OP was very clear and to the point. Are The LRS's the best speakers on the market around $650.00 or so, attaining audiophile virtues and achievements that no other speaker in the category can match? Yes or no?
That direct question's my cue to slip off topic and delve into my favorite thing in life. Whine. Whine and complain. Kvetch. So, I ignore the simple, direct OP topic and launch whining. Here it comes:
You mean I need to buy an amplifier for these? Why can't they be self powered, like my Skullcandy Bone Crusher X-11 bluetooth speakers? Do I have to buy and use speaker cable, and spend money on that? Why can't it be supplied free? LRS's obviously can't be any good. Maybe everyone should just use some cheap Chinese made class D PA amp with LRS's... cause it's the cheapest option cheap.
And now, for the part you've all been waiting. The part where I sanctimoniously and pompously pontificate about audio, as if I had a PhD in physics, even though I believe the earth is flat, and science is a lie (rockets on Mars? Pfft. There ain't no rockets on Mars. All fake news). Pompous audio definitions herewith, forthwith, and with forth:
Intermodulation dislinearity - bad stuff
Pousty - mates with goats
Zenspluub - see zenszit
Zenszit - unknown
Teflon - yep
Then, finally, after posting all of these pointless, pompous posts, I'll close by saying that the standards proposed by the originators (now deceased) of the Absolute Sound as foundational standards for home audio reproduction are completely unknown to me, and if I did know them, I'd manage to butcher them up beyond recognition...with a barrel of whining to go with it. So, my understanding of "live concerts" is limited to grizzly, super-amplified affairs with blasting PA loudspeakers spitting out almost pure noise and ear-searing distortion. Guaranteed permanent hearing loss and brain damage. As opposed to "dead concerts", but I haven't attended any of those yet.
Well, the brain damage part would affect me the least.
Party on, Garth.
.
The first time I heard Magnapan speakers, it changed my "Audio Life"...I don't have LRS.....I wanted them but the ETA was months away. So I bought a used pair of MMGs....I power them with either a Sound Artist SA200ia solid state amp of 100w/ch or a VTA ST120 Dynaco Clone tube amp with 60w/ch...Schiit Freya preamp and Node 2i through Modi3+.....In a word, Magnificent! I have near a dozen other, under $1000 pair speakers in the closet. All are great but none compare to the MMGs.....Until a couple weeks ago when I bought a pair of KEF LS50 Metas....Oh My! I would love to compare the MMgs and the LS50 to the LRS....Maybe I'll just order a pair and listen to them in 6-8 months!
Yes, Magnapans, like the LS50 need critical placement....This is part of the audiophile hobby..No? Room accoustics matter..Part of the hobby? All worth it in my book....
Roy Bertalotto
South of Boston
VTA ST120
Schiit Saga
Schiit Loki
Schiit Modi
Bluesound Node2i
Speakers..too many to list
Edits: 11/19/21
agreed
you've got better things to do with your time than read or post on AA, so by all means, please go do them ... you're the only one who knows what they are and they certainly can't get done without you can they?
some of those things must be time sensitive and / or important
especially if there's other people involved
other people's time is valuable too right?
so it's probably best to get right to it
plan your work & work your plan!
good luck!
the vocals on good recordings can sound so real that it it can give you the creeps ,,,,, I am talking Quad electrostatic type realI am not joking when I tell you that I have heard $4000 speakers that did not sound as real on the mid range
Edits: 10/25/21 10/25/21 10/25/21
While front-firing cone speakers might have a tendency to make the very same images seem slightly too small, and too concentrated.
I used to own Magnepan 1.6 speakers, by the way...
Stereo imaging characteristics are just one important contrast to consider when comparing the performance of Magnepans and some front-firing cone speakers.
Instead, I will most intelligently offer those considering buying their first pair of Magnepans a few kindly words of advice:
Spend a LOT of time fiddling (and even, "micro-fiddling") around with speaker positioning and listener distance positions before pronouncing judgement on a pair of Magnepans.
Once you get everything *just right* it is highly possible that you'll like their sound very much. But remember, it might take hours or even days before you arrive at that blissful point in time.
On any speaker but especially on economy designs what really matters is what a speaker does well and what its flaws are and what speaker characteristics affect your listening most. In my case the most important factor is dynamic linearity, accurate changes in level from micro to macro. I've never heard anyone praise Maggies for dynamic linearity. so for me you are wrong.
'I've never heard anyone praise Maggies for dynamic linearity'
how can that be? you've never read comments on the Planar Asylum?
yes but I don't read the home team web site. The danger all of us audiophiles face(including me) is subconciously making our own systems our reference.
so there you go, people praise Maggies for dynamic linearity
Match these Magnat Transpuls 1500's with a JBL SA750 Class G Integrated amp and it's like being at a Live Concert ! This amp runs in Class A most of the time !
but I neither want to be at a live concert or prove you wrong
trioderob asserted the LRS are king of their class, not me
and I didn't want to prove him wrong either
be well,
Amazing Review on these Magnat speakers !...
Dynamic accuracy
Is the relative loud/soft per frequency true to the recording?
Is the rate of change in the volume true to the recording?
Does the system stop changing the volume without any artifacts?
Gsquared
good questions grounded in measurements [but which ones?] based on points of reference [but whose?] with what experiences, maturity, and reference points ... also does linearity = accuracy? now language is in play
linearity: 'the assessment of the range over which results can be obtained without the need for dilution, reflecting the range over which there is a proportional relationship between analyte concentration and signal'
accuracy = the ability of a measurement to match the actual value of the quantity being measured ... or precision, a value of accuracy
dynamics = we're primarily invoking studying the motions of bodies, but some substitute the term for kinetics ... comparable and yet one is the study of the other and not a substitute
of course our language informs our thought processes, emotions our perceptions
I posit this to highlight certain ironies that help create 'rabbit holes'
one irony is that if we don't 'think' our eyes and ears don't lie to us we're not paying attention ... it's difficult if not impossible to separate thought from emotion but only one of these can be measured or subject to independent verification and falsified
I think ribbons and panels as reproducers embody all the same characteristics as others to a greater or lesser extent subject to design parameters, because there isn't any standard for any of them
there's certainly expectations though, which is a synthesis of thoughts and emotions filtered through experience ... at least I think I feel that way ... so let me take you down to Strawberry Fields where there's nothing to get hung about
well, I'm glad I got that off my chest
and now, back to our regularly unscheduled audio neurosis
with regards,
can I ask you what speaker in the 500-1000 range you DO recommend ?
Not refuting your comment, but I encountered a person who thought my $95 speakers cost $2,000.00 or my stepson who thought my $300.00 cost $1,500.00 when he listened to them.
I put a sonic activator on a piece of cardboard and it sounded pretty good - the question is what brand new speaker for 500-1000 can top the LRS ?
The guru of objective audio reviewing has not good things to say about the LRS. :)
"The Magnepan LRS is a hugely flawed speaker with moments of delight. If I could control what you listen to, e.g. in an audio show or dealer room, I could convince you it is much better speaker than it is. The best way I can explain this is that the designers solved 30% of the physics of building a speaker, and threw you in there to solve the rest! You take on the job of spending what must be a lifetime messing with location, tilt, EQ, etc. to get sound that is good for more than a few select tracks.
I am confident a better job can be done than what we see in LRS. Maybe making the panels smaller causes the beaming and interference patterns worse. I don't know. What I do know that this is not a product finished and fit for use by a consumer.
I wonder how much simulation and in field analysis was performed as I have shown here. Doesn't seem like much was done to find and remove issues with this speaker.
Needless to say, I can't recommend the Magnepan LRS."
Lots of data confirming that it has a planar speaker and the reviewer is pointing out on several occasions that it's a problem
A guy with good amount of knowledge , tools and skills but really missed with some key conclusions.
It's almost repeated when he in another review says tha Andrew Jones needs to stop using coax drivers due to well known attributes good and bad for coax.
Probably has same level of understanding and discredit to single driver speakers and full horn designs.
I've not read all of the reviews but do like detail of the measurements and many of the tech details are solid but some of the interpretations and conclusions are either head scratchers or a novice made them.
Amir has no clue how to measure planar speakers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
I would like to know. Based on his reviews, John Atkinson for example, doesn't either.A couple of caveats to dumping on Amir: (a) his measurements are comprehensive at least for typical "box" speaker, (b) unlike most electrical components, he does offer modest subjective impressions of speakers and headphones -- albeit he listens after measuring.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 10/27/21
You'd need a very large true physical anechoic room, not the synthetic kind from the devices Atkinson & Amir use which have some deep assumptions built into their DSP algorithms (which Amir doesn't seem to recognize).
Big enough so that the speaker is still 'small' on its longest axis compared to the largest length of the planar panel. That's really out of the bounds of what's economically feasible.
The new Diptyque Audio is the New King at any price ! The Most Realistic Sounding speakers on the Planet !
A very small taste of Diptyque Audio Perfection ?
Whatever they may be, the presenter on your youtube link's speaking French...which's French to me.
Then, the audio's just plain old youtube low fidelity audio. Just muffled. Speakers might be planetary, but, youtube's always just youtube.
Any way, no idea about price. But, I wish them luck, and I thank you for introducing them here.
Hear things you have never heard before ?..
Our ears are the ultimate "measuring" tool.
The folks over at Magnepan must have figured out how to translate what can be objectively measured into a product that plain and simply sounds good to them. And this sort of methodology does not bother me one bit. In fact, I applaud Magnepan for their finely honed interpretive skills.
Well, I think his main problem is he doesn't know how to interpret the results.
But, he would tell you, he didn't like the sound of the LRS regardless of the measurements. :)
Dave.
really understand listening to music. ;)
Even with the wink, could you make a more pompous statement?
Edits: 10/25/21
Listening to music is clearly unimportant as compared to creating his SINAD *ranking* chart.
I can hardly imagine a more useless measure. ;)
I guess thats why the dealer down the street from me has folks waiting half a year to buy them - on back order - and they are not asking for their deposit money back - instead they wait patiently
no proof there
there's no 'there' there
therefore, I get to type there variations without going there
so there!
; )
Well, there you have it. :)
At this point, I think there's not a lot of people talking Amir seriously anymore. (If they did in the first place.)
My sense is that he has very limited experience with different types of speakers. In his mind, you purchase the $100k speaker test system, you read Dr. Toole's book, and it's job done. Unfortunately, there's much more to speaker design, implementation, taste, etc, etc, than that.
Regards the label of "king of low price speakers"......it's impossible to quantify in those terms. There are so many variables to consider.
Dave.
'the label of "king of low price speakers"
they've also been labelled 'king of budget speakers'
firstly, I haven't heard them but ...
I've read that the 'little ribbon speakers' test at around 80db sensitivity
personally, when I look at 'budget' the whole system enters the equation
whatever was saved on the speaker would surely be spent on amplification
so, a high powered unit with a very stiff power supply for the best results
those do not come cheap unless you go with modern pro gear
so you'd better be a fan of 'class D' amplification if cost is paramount
those seem like realistic assumptions based on the specifications
and I would ask myself 'where's the savings in my budget?'
but as you say, there's several more considerations involved so ...
regards,
Great point. Having had 4 pairs of Maggies over the years, I have to admit I've never heard a speaker do a better job of putting an acoustic jazz trio or quartet in my listening room. That said, if you want the "whole enchilada", you'll need some serious power and current drive. Now as you hint, despite starting out with a modest $650 speaker investment, you'll need to spend substantially more for quality source and amplification to hear this speaker's true capabilities. Yes, and most likely a pair of powered subs would be added to this equation. Most importantly however, really boils down to the type of music one listens to. Would not be the first choice for those listening to a steady diet of rock and blues for instance.
In the very small sweet spot, the Sanders 10E were the best I've ever heard in recent memory, and even better than any Magnepans I've heard (though ribbon ones are very close).
In long past memory: Apogee Divas at the Smithsonian.
That is what I did. I already had the amp and sub.
The system is great on the blues. Stadium rock is not their sweet spot, but the instrument there is a cone speaker in that live experience.
Gsquared
The best speakers I have ever heard put the musicians in the room with us: at the Apogee factory, 1988.
Victor Feldman and a clarinet player, on LP, IIRC.
An unforgettable event.
We were there because Apogee was about to sponsor Arturo Delmoni's legendary solo-violin recital.
RIP Jason, and hope you are well, Sara.
john
'put the musicians in the room' & 'Feldman and a clarinet player'
a duo; the less that is being asked of a speaker the better they'll do it?
that's probably true to an extent don't you think?
Time and again people have told me that Arturo Delmoni's solo-violin recording (Water Lily; remastered by Bob Ludwig for JMR) was the most realistic imaging they had ever heard.
However, one fan told me that he had won his IASCA (competitive autosound) class with "Eleven Large Lobsters" from "Transylvanian Softwear," which was avant-garde solo free-bass accordion.
amb,
jm
'avant-garde solo free-bass accordion'
well there's six words I never expected to see in a row
competitive auto sound is usually judged from outside the vehicle so ...
I'm inclined towards having reservations about that opinion
Link is to the music.
I've heard them do a wonderful rendering of acoustic blues and unplugged rock though so ... who was it that said 'courses for horses'?
... never had to take care of horses being the punch line
regards,
That was the problem with the KEF LS-50 - also a speaker that is tough to drive properly so while the speaker is cheapish you need to spend more on the amplifier to get the best from them such that the overall price of the speaker/amp makes it not such a great deal.
You can get some Wyred4Sound Class D amps with sufficient power for $2k (preamp and monoblocks) and probably other makers for less. So it's not too outrageous with a $700. So let's say a $3k system with taxes and shipping.
Then look at other speakers/amp combinations you could put together for $3k to see how what can be done.
OTOH SS power on the used market is pretty cheap and so buying a second-hand amp is the way to go - Power amps have no moving parts and can last decades trouble-free. Get a Used Rotel RB 1090 for cheap (stable to 1 ohm I believe) and so it just takes a look around.
I am not a huge fan of Magnepan myself as I was directly comparing them to a 2 way box at Soundhounds in Victoria BC - a pretty big panel dealer selling Quad/Magnepan/Finale/Martin Logan/Acoustat/(used Apogees) so I was fortunate to hear these speakers with various SS and Tube and even SET amplifiers. I found the tube amps sounded the best on some of these so it is somewhat surprising when I read people always suggesting big power SS. I heard the flagship Brystons on a set of Magnepan 1.7 yet the 18 watt SEP tube amp sounded much better as did a 211 SET (Purple amp that's not coming to my mind at the moment). They also sounded better with Quad that the SS amps they carry.
'it is somewhat surprising when I read people always suggesting big power SS'
if 'real world' testing showing 80db sensitivity at 4 ohms is accurate that would seem to call for some grunt for playing them at decent volumes, yes?
it's interesting that there's buzz about these again though
they must be moving fairly well with the wait times for orders reported
they aren't in my future but it's an interesting product concept
regards,
Wait times right now it is tough to say whether that is orders or the pandemic and shipping problems.
Yes, with lower power amps you are volume limited but with a lot of speakers, the need to crank them to make things out clearly is offset by cleaner sound at lower volumes where you don't need to crank the volume. The advantage of SET amplifiers vs semiconductors. The tube amps also have 4ohm taps and Magnepans typically are flat loads (not all of them apparently).
Wyatech was the amp I could not think of.
Never been much of a fan of ribbon planar speakers though so my take on how to get them to sound better probably differed from the fans. Although, to be fair, it was the dealer who made these combinations. He isn't wasting tube life for no reason. He wanted to put the speakers in the best possible light to be able to sell them.
well, they're not in my future, I'm not in the market & don't want those
it's cool that some here report good to great+ results though
it's always nice when a plan comes together
regards,
Set up isn't all that difficult in reality, nor is the amount of power as gigantic as some make it out to be.
Dmitri Shostakovich
who is this character Amir ?
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Amir Majidimehr founder & reviewer at 'Audio Science Review'
his measurement methodologies, conclusions and audio philosophy garner a lot of [well deserved IMO] criticism from around the internet
dude used to work for Microsoft and it kind of ... um ... shows
Nt
Mr. Hirsch had far more of a humanist bent if you ask me, which you didn't
seems the ease of gaining a platform on the internet fosters egos gone wild
which can be entertaining of course just bring your own salt shaker
regards,
So absolutely, a marvelous humanist bent, no matter how one feels about his reliance on measurements to characterize the performance of audio gear.
I asked him about it once and he told me that he could hear differences in amps, but just felt that the differences were not sufficient to worry about in the context of the entire system architecture.
ah ... see my reply to Gsquared
measurements and feelings should exist in their own spaces in our thought processes but they don't ... I feel that a 10K BTU air conditioner will do a better job of cooling than a 5K BTU unit or comparably rated heat pump system because of their measurements ... but they don't in the real world
though they could
thanks for the reply!
regards,
Nt
"I asked him about it once and he told me that he could hear differences in amps, but just felt that the differences were not sufficient to worry about in the context of the entire system architecture."
He said, more or less, the same thing when he was a guest on Peter Sutheim radio show "In Fidility".
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I met him and spoke to him several times as a teenager and he was very nice, totally a class act as was mentioned.
The Amir on the other hand is a legend in is own mind. An "internet expert" (cough) created by his own marketing and puffery. Typical middle manger who took credit for other's work.
A computer expert who has trouble installing drivers. Thinks Windows reg file must have been written by aliens. An audio expert who could not get a PI2AES working to review it. Cannot set up speakers as displayed here. Good speakers usually get bad reviews unless they are Harman products.
He trashes multi-bit dacs due to not measuring 0.00000000001, but raved about his tape machine that measured worse than a bad table radio... A real funny guy!
A computer expert who has trouble installing drivers.
He worked for Microsoft and was *responsible* for Windows Media Player? ;)
Absolutely! As a middle manager, not a software designer, or any other tech position for that matter. Read his board, it is comedic when he complains about installing drivers etc.
Nt
since I first heard them as a teenager, they won't thump like some folks like. If you're really into rock, they will never sound like you hear the music played live-even with subwoofers.For that matter, I don't know of any acoustical instrument that does either! For music heard through cone woofers, you really need cone woofers to replicate their sound. It's not about bandwidth as my stats provide flat in room response to below 30 hz. What I like about playing pop like Rihanna, is that you can hear the "texture" to first octave bass-if not the thump. :)
Edits: 10/26/21
For the love of all that is Holy!
Navy submarine barracks, in San Diego, about 1993...
At the time, my system was a pair of Maggie SMGs, driven by an Adcom 555II, a NYAL Minuet pre, and using some kind of NAD cd player.
Put something on the system, and hopped into the shower. Moments later? It feels like a helicopter is IN the room, and I can FEEL the beat of the rotors. Thwap Thwap Thwap! Continuous.
Jump out of the shower, and find? Something has failed in the preamp, and the Adcom is putting every bit of its power into the Maggies, and making the bass panels just flap back & forth.
Yep! Maggies CAN do bass, to the point that you totally feel it! But? They generally shouldn't.
In the end? Amp was OK, SMGs were fine, CD player was fine. NYAL? It was dead - and I replaced it in the next week or so with an ARC LS3. :P
"For music heard through cone woofers, you really need cone woofers to replicate their sound."
Cone woofers IN A CABINET that is! Very interesting take on the matter though - I hadn't thought about it like that. While I'd love to hear some panels, or some OB's (that use cones), I refuse to believe they will deliver the impact and slam that I'm used to from my...JBLs!
voolston - audiophile by day, music lover by night
.
Gsquared
Dispersion characteristics might have something to do with the perception that "pump" is somewhat lacking. I guess.
I used to own Magnepan 1.6 speakers.
nothing is missing. I never experience that "pump" with string bass, concert drums nor pipe organs.
It is a case where sound reinforcement systems become the instrument.
conversely I've not heard cone drivers pump ... I've felt them displace air and knew they were doing it, but it wasn't audible unless a port was used
I've felt 'thump' from amplified live acts, but that was at ridiculous decibel levels that in no way were 'realistic' except for being really over amplified and not very enjoyable ... that part was real and if that's the listener's goal park a megawatt PA system in the room ... I SAID ...
I'm with you my frenemy, the goal is a system with synergy that reproduces the instruments to the point it's an extension of the instruments
if panels get it done, or horns, or any combination of 'reproducers' then that system is a success in my book ... nothing wrong with that perspective
I've felt 'thump' from amplified live acts, but that was at ridiculous decibel levels that in no way were 'realistic' except for being really over amplified and not very enjoyable ..
pretty much defines all amplified venues for me. And the ones to which I refer.
I stopped buying tickets for those concerts when I was in my twenties. Having to use earplugs negates the experience for me. ;)
Have a great musical bass but yes no thump you cannot feel the bass wit them neither my peach tree 500 watts calls d or jolida tubes ( most rounded sound at 80 watts),
that's what I thought too .... kind of soft sounding with no solid bass or dynamic impactbut thats the problem with the amp - not the Magnepans!
with the right amp that has tons of current and is at least 300 watts they are extremely dynamic and have tremendous bass slam that is lighting fast and tight = the differnce with the right amp is night and day
"....its levels of microscopic detail, accurate timbre, and pure-water transparency are unprecedented at anywhere near $650/pair. " - Stereophile Magazine
Edits: 10/24/21
regardless of amplifier used, planers will *never* thump in a way some folks like.
Mind you, I find planar bass to provide better transient response and timbre. I'd much rather hear any music through them then via cone woofers. :)
I see what you are say ,,,,, they will never thump like a huge JBL speaker system .... guess thats true .... on the other hand I dont think any speaker can do it all with the exception of a huge expensive compression driver system including bass horns which would be 30 grand or more
and I would certainly not prefer giant multi-way JBLs either!
I am quite content using large full range stats that do a far better job with acoustical music.
They are a great value if, you have a suitable amp. They really shine integrated with a sub for a full range presentation, but that costs at least another $500.
Gsquared
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
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