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In Reply to: RE: A competition posted by Bill the K on July 15, 2021 at 22:11:08
That's very kind of you.
Just to clarify things a little...
(1) I assume that you mean, total cost, $500 per PAIR.
If you meant $500 EACH, please clarify that!
(2) Also, I assume that your cost figure means cost to a US DIY-er for the parts and cabinet--shipping and sales taxes excluded; in that those will vary state to state. And, assembly labor and woodfinishing should be deemed to be free.
I'd also suggest that you (or the competition's sponsor) consider "Open" judging, and the possibility of non-ranked judging.
What I am driving at is that I actually have designed and built a "pea pod" loudspeaker designed to be listened to on a desktop... and most certainly not from eight to 10 feet away.
Whereas, for the same money, someone could get a 6-inch coaxial driver, a crossover, and a .5 cu-ft. box, and stay under $250 per speaker. And that speaker should be able to fill a room as well as any 6.5-inch 2-way can.
I think that both those speakers deserve to be judged only on their own intentions and ambitions...
I dunno if Stereophile would want to get involved as a sponsor; but, when you are thinking about companies, Madisound is great, but don't neglect Parts Express.
ciao,
john
Follow Ups:
I think that is a beer commercial, not one for audio gear. ;^)
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
Thanks for the response John. What I had in mind was 500 per pair and similar to the Zaph but better due to improved technology over the years. Since Zaph is highly regarded any design to top it will be highly desirable. It should be far better than the Andrew Jones Debut B6.2. Well, he did great ones for Pioneer for peanuts, less than $200 or so. So for $500 it could be very good. Some of the Parts Express competition winning speakers with drivers costing less than $200 have turned out better than the expensive category designs.
Well, what am I looking for? I am looking for the common man's KEF LS50.
Best Wishes
There's a bunch of decent coaxial drivers that you could make a small two-way with. If your goal is to make something like the Trenner & Friedl Sun on the cheap, that's attainable. But if your goal is to make a KEF LS50 on the cheap, that's not gonna happen.
However, the LS50 is built to a price point that includes distributor and dealer profit shares, and so...
I cheerfully assume that, for example, if an audiophile were willing to pay the retail price of a pair of LS50s ($1500) for DIY parts, the result should be better.
I think I should print up some T-Shirts that will say:
LET'S DE-PRIESTHOOD-IZE
LOUDSPEAKER BUILDING!
Case in point: SEAS makes a Graphene-cone 5-inch coaxial that has a US onesie-twosie MSRP of $555--EACH.
Two of those, two crossovers, and two decent cabinets (perhaps from IWISTAO) bring you to $1500, and obviously, you have spent a lot more money where it counts than KEF's business model allows for.
No disrespect meant to "real" companies. Who employ people and pay benefits, and so on.
jm
. . . that any hobbyist or small upstart manufacturer would be hard-pressed to match. Their economy of scale helps offset overhead costs to keep the retail price down. There's no way you or I could design/build an LS50 equivalent and distribute and sell it for that same $1,500. Even if we paid ourselves third-world minimum wage for our design time and labor.
Yes, the LS50 is built to a price point. But you can't buy its design features from anybody else.
The response of that Excel 5" coax with the graphene coated Mg cone looks lumpier than the cheaper Presige model with the Al cone. The more expensive one is a couple dB more sensitive and can work with a lower reflex tuning. But the frequency response will be better with the cheaper one, on-axis and off-axis.
as far as smooth response of a speaker(drivers/box/crossover) goes it's the total design that counts, especially the driver/crossover. Most drivers have lumpy response to various degrees. In a well designed speaker the crossover does more than just a crossover. It acts as a passive equalizer that helps smooth out the driver response. This smoothing can often be significant. Some times the smoothing is done with extra elements but some times it can be included in the actual crossover by varying some values from the ones that would only provide a crossover.
True, but you lose some sensitivity and maybe power handling as well. In this case, if you equalize the Seas Excel drivers to get a FR as smooth as the Prestige drivers, the sensitivity advantage of the Excel is lost. Notwithstanding the allure of graphene, I'm not sure that it's worth the tradeoff with this particular driver.
I am with the Virtuous Pagan Aristotle:
"If it sounds good, it is good."
jm
I am wondering about a speaker that I cannot listen to. It is a birthday gift from my bro in law who chose it without consulting me. Surprise. Spent 600 bucks on it. Cannot stand the sound. I am planning to tear off the yellow drivers and throw them out of the window over to the east river and modify the cabinet to receive the appropriate new drivers. This will enable me to go for some solid drivers as suggested here.
This brings me to an old question of mine. Where are all the speakers gone.There have been millions of them sold over the years and I dont see too many at Goodwill. I was told that folks take them to camping trips for late night fires to scare the bears. Playing my yellow driver speaker would do the same. Where are the Insignias? Can be reused with new drivers.
Thanks for the patience
All the best
Bill
Seas has the longest running commitment to coax drivers for home constructors and they have offered kits and crossover diagrams for decades with coax units
I have not heard or used th SB units but there non coax versions of drivers are quite good
I'd look at Seas Prestige L12RE, $160 from Madisound. A pair of them with crossovers, wire, and binding posts could be under $500, not counting the box.
They have an "Homage" to the LS-50.
Here are the cabinet plans--I don't think it's a "beginner" project.
http://tb-speaker.com/products/sug2-25#
The driver set costs $211 each, and then you need crossovers, so there goes at least $500, and then you need cabinets.
I'd budget $250 each for nice cabinets, so, all in, that's $1,000. Apart from the cost savings, there is the possibility that with first-class crossover components and long-haired Mongolian sheeps' wool, you'd have a very nice sounding pair of loudspeakers.
ciao,
john
Again, a crossover is necessary.
jm
which would means that the cost for the vendor would be in the $250-350 range.
Or one could buy drivers, binding posts, crossover parts etc. for under $400 and have $100 to either build a cabinet or whatever.
-Rod
Be-cause, quite frankly:
...If we go by the ancient industry Shibboleth that there's $2,000 parts and labor in a $10,000-retail pair of loudspeakers, and if the OP has in mind reselling a design through triple-tier distribution, listening to designs meant to sell for $500 a pair at your local stereo store is not something I want to spend my time doing.
However, it seems from the OP's frame of reference that he is thinking about people's buying drivers that are sold by Madisound and perhaps getting a local cabinet maker to make cabinets.
BTW, please nobody experience the miracle of feline motherhood over the time-honored industry yardstick.
It's not a case of consumers' getting hosed; it's living out (the Gospel of) Matthew 10:10: the workers at every level are getting paid. And 20% cost factor is the way it usually has had to work.
Over and above parts and labor are The Costs of Selling the Things, and, Overhead, and NRE, and insurance and taxes and profits for the loudspeaker company's owner.
Then: Sales Reps, an often-thankless job.
Then, keeping the lights on at the local audio dealer, and paying his staff and overhead.
IMHO a $500-pair semi-DIY challenge is interesting. But if we are suddenly complicating the distribution chain, there is so little money left for worthy drivers and capacitors and cabinets, etc., that I would have to say, count me out.
john
Just keep it to $500 of parts from wherever, and plans for the cabinet.
If it's popular, a vendor can CNC cut a flat pack for the masses to finish. Most don't have the skills or equipment to build cabinets. Lots of folks would build to plans.
-Rod
'and have $100 to either build a cabinet or whatever'
not sure if you've bought wood lately but that $100.00 wouldn't get it done
especially cabinet grade stuff
prices are over the moon right now!
regards,
nt
Wood prices have left ORBIT headed for MARS.
Void Free Plywood? Or the highest grades of MDF (the kind that hardly floats and you can't mark with your fingernail on edge)
Tooling? Finish? Fasteeners?
Too much is never enough
I needed some framing studs in May figuring about $1.65 for eight footers
they were $6.45 at the local supplier and maybe a few dimes less at Menard's
talk about sticker shock!
regards,
Now expand that INSULT to the rest of the wood products needed to fabricate a High-End speaker enclosure.
I wonder about PLYBOO? A 4x6 shee of 3/4 (yes.....6 feet) was about 300# when I first checked.
Too much is never enough
When I was in my 20s, I had a gf who once asked me whether I was aware of the extent to which I was preoccupied with my own death... so, just imagine me 40 years later!
Therefore, when I size up a project, it is often from a standpoint of, "By how many decades will this outlive me?"
The garden shed had an awful pressure-treated pine ramp, and the low end was literally stuck in the mud.
So, I paid (I am not joking) a RISD-trained furniture designer to make a ramp out of solid, legally-obtained Brazilian Walnut, and I dug a 12 x 12 x 39 inch drainage trench, and did the whole landscape fabric and drainage rock thing.
That ramp gives me pleasure every time I see it!
So, just imagine how I approach loudspeaker cabinets!
john
PS: I told him I would pay for Blind Dowels, but he made a face as though I really needed professional help. So, the stainless screws are countersunk and have plugs cut from scrap lumber glued in. I have a spare plank; one day I should test to see if it floats or sinks.
The relevance: that was $400 in lumber then; I can only imagine what it would cost today.
# # #
When we bought this house, we did some work on the basement door. At the time, it had a spring to automatically shut the door, but the door didn't shut fully, so we did some planning on the sides to remove too many coats of paint and tweaked it a bit. Then, we painted it, but didn't take it down to the raw wood, so it still showed the scars of chipped old paint.
After 10 years, the hinges had gotten sprung after we changed the spring to an screen door closer and some forced it closed instead of letting it do it's thing. It also wasn't closing right either with sprung hinges that caused on side to hit the jam.
The door is 85 years old and not a standard size, nor is it the full typical depth for standard hinges. For literally years, I considered option and asked for advice and came up empty until a buddy of mine found the actual exact, orignal hinges which are spring loaded.
Another issue was the door knob because the strikers get sticky and were an issue in the past. We decided to just take off the striker and have a 'fake' door knob that always closed fully, but we had to add a dead bolt for a lock. No problem, we've got a template, except for one little thing. On the other side of the door, there was 1" molding which would be right in the way of the dead bolt. No problem, we'll take off the molding and get 1/2" to replace it.
BTW: Someone, over the property's 85 years, added the stained glass. Now, I can proudly saw that it's better than it ever was.
-Rod
Join the Church of Farrow & Ball.
To paint with Farrow & Ball paint is to experience what it is like to paint with a McDonald's Milkshake.
And it is not just the consistency, or the snob value (see link); it is the color selection...
The above is just one of many color cards.
But the SNL sendup is for the ages.
jm
John, I had a FLASH.
In a PAST LIFE you were on the Planning Commission for the Great Pyrmid. It's roughtly 4500 years on, and the interior is still as good as the day it was sealed up......
You'd be into your ram for a Grand, easy, today.
I built a radio stand for my Tivoli #1 out of scrap Sapelle, looks like some kind of Mahogany?
I used pocket screws so NO visible fasteners. A good exercise and taught me a lot about the
particular tool and how to use it.
I've made planks / sheets out of tongue and grooe FLOORING. Edge glue and clamp flat will it sets.
I wanted to use as panels in furniture.......Heavy and will last forever, being preinished for floor use....
Too much is never enough
nt
not even that high end, just nice enough not to embarrass used in the house
I could knock together a good performing cabinet for the garage or outdoor use for maybe under $200.00 but that's where they'd stay
regards,
I builts what is about a 30 cubic foot box for my BBQ stuff. It'll hold 90lb of lump, and another 50 or 60lb of ceramics as well as ALL the extra stuff from insulated mitts to charcoal chimney.
Cost? I have NO idea. Some things I bought for the construction, like a Pocket Hole toolset are useful for other projects...and have been so used.
but it is not of 'speaker box' level construction. Each of 4 panels is 1x4 or 1x6 with a 1/4" plywood panel insert....Fllush in inside (router edge)and inset on the out......
Lid is also framed / 3/8" plywood and TILTED to shed rain. Hinges are ADA compiant OFFSET used on house doors. FLOOR is 3/4" and SOLID. A 200lb+ person can sstand in the box and be wheeled around without a problem. Box is DRY inside because of overlap of lid and the tilt. It would have to rain UP to stand a chance. Never found a BUG in the box, either. Lid is tight enough to be soft-close. It won't slam......Just settles onto an air cushion and self-closes.
Too much is never enough
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