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In Reply to: RE: Many inmates posted by E-Stat on March 10, 2021 at 09:19:48
. . . cross too high from the mid to the tweeter, and hence exhibit dips in the off-axis response in the crossover region. Even expensive, well-regarded models. Many of them also have too much distance between the acoustic centers of the drivers (greater than one wavelength at crossover frequency), exacerbating the problem. They don't even pretend to follow Toole rules.
And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers. With proper toe-in toward the listening sweet spot, good distance from reflective side walls, and maybe some absorbtive/diffusive treatment on those walls, the hole in the off-axis response is not notable enough to be bothersome. Perfectionists like you and me will hear it, but most people won't.
To avoid the problem, particularly with larger diameter midrange drivers (which have their own sets of advantages and drawbacks), you need to use a ROBUST tweeter (Fs below 800Hz, high rated power handling) and cross it LOW -- not much more than an octave above Fs. Also, get the driver centers as close together as possible on the baffle. Truncated frame drivers are useful for this purpose.
Coaxial drivers, which I have not experimented with, probably offer the best solution to aligning acoustic centers, but probably introduce other compromises unique to them.
Follow Ups:
...cross too high from the mid to the tweeter
In days past, I would agree. Not, however, with modern designs. I think this is largely due to power limitations with vintage tweeters. Harry Pearson fried a number of Advent tweeters using a Phase Linear 700 during his double Advent review. Result? The later New Advent raised the crossover from 1k to 1.5k and ferro-fluid cooled the tweeter. I've been using a 300 watt/channel amp with my pair in the garage system for years. :)
And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers
Not everyone is sensitive to a lack of coherency.
"And yet, lots of people love and enjoy their imperfect speakers. With proper toe-in toward the listening sweet spot, good distance from reflective side walls, and maybe some absorbtive/diffusive treatment on those walls, the hole in the off-axis response is not notable enough to be bothersome. Perfectionists like you and me will hear it, but most people won't."
Exactly how I have managed the issue, which is certainly noticeable before making some of the adjustments you have indicated. But my listening area is fairly modest. I sit/listen more or less in the same spot, so arranging the speakers to get pretty good imaging hasn't been difficult.
And bottom line, they are very enjoyable speakers to listen to. They mate beautifully with my big McIntosh amp, and pretty much everything sounds good whether soft or on the fairly rare occasions that I want to turn it up to levels that I normally won't listen at.
But my listening area is fairly modest. I sit/listen more or less in the same spot, so arranging the speakers to get pretty good imaging hasn't been difficult.
That doesn't address the challenge. It's not about providing a wider sweet spot. What I hear is a weird frequency dependent stage width sitting equally between the two speakers.
An hourglass shaped perspective. Not what you hear in the real world.
Responding to your deleted post, enjoy your shiny new toy. AB with your ARs and I think you'll better appreciate the odd presentation.
You're right. I can't hear what you're referring to.
I have done some comparing, and for now I'm listening to the JBL's a lot more then the 3's, which is surprising to me given what a huge AR enthusiast I've been over the years. I still love them, but the JBL's aren't as brash or difficult to listen to as I fully expected them to be. I still chalk it up to what's going into them...perhaps a lesser amp might deliver a sound that was more grating. I don't know.
perhaps a lesser amp might deliver a sound that was more grating. I don't know.has nothing to do with the amplifier.
And what I hear is not *grating* - just unnatural in its presentation. Some instruments are rendered like fun mirrors.
Edits: 03/12/21
I'm not suggesting that what you're referring to is a grating sound. I was talking about what OTHER issues OTHER folks have had with these speakers, one of them being the overly bright tweeter. I was suggesting that a decent amp might be helping with the overall quality that I'm getting into my ears.
I understand what you hear, even though I can't hear it. Or maybe I can hear it, but don't realize it. That picture is fun, and I'll give you that I have never seen or heard anybody describe what they hear using that comparison. It bears no recognizable resemblance whatsoever to what I am hearing, but it's fun nonetheless.
In any event, time to move on. Appreciate your input.
I was talking about what OTHER issues OTHER folks have had with these speakers, one of them being the overly bright tweeter.
Many JBLs like the 4311 do exhibit the boom-sizzle "West Coast" sound but I find the brightness has to do with the lower treble. Other models like the L110 are quite neutral in response if not possessing the directivity challenge.
Enjoy the ride!
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