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In Reply to: RE: Those darn measurements ! posted by morricab on June 27, 2017 at 02:04:51
We never seem to be able to agree - My problem with the Meishu is that IT is the thing that is caramel and syrupy. It is a 300B lady amplifier as King of KingKo calls them. Good for the ladies - pretty, gentle caramel syrupy and dull.I agree with Peter's favorite tubes which are the 211, 45 and 2a3.
You're hearing the amplifier not the speaker. My suggestion to you is this - find your absolute favorite POWERFUL SS amplifier and put it on the AN E and crank the shit out of the volume - I mean play it LOUD LOUD with the highest level of impact bass recording and treble - cymbal crashes, drums, at PELTING levels.
Play this at 105dB+ and tell me the speakers are caramel. Don't let the froo froo classical music soft and tender people choose the lady music.
Peter Qvortrup had 500 copies of this album reproduced on vinyl. Pelting levels.
The Meishu is a nice 300B - It might even be a very good 300B. 300B is just so bloody MEH.
And the other dumb thing about the Meishu Silver Sig - it is STILL just an M2 preamp sharing the one box. For the same money you can buy the vastly superior M3 AND a pair of Empress Silver Monoblocks. Combined this is less money than the Meishu Silver. Same watts but way more balls. Lose some gentility and prettiness. But no caramel. Even the Jinro has some of that softness in the treble.
In fact you could skip AN's preamps all together - if you want the open sound look at the Emia Autoformer passive that Jack Roberts hails as the BEST sounding preamp ever made by anyone at any price (and it's under $5k).
You know better than most that tubes can have a valve sound which also mean they bring a softening to attack. Great decay. But Peter will say his amps are connecting the dots and provide proper note to note flow which may be but other amps have more splash in the treble. You aren't getting perfection at these lower price points you just don't get it all - so AN compromises by doling out a darker chocolatey and thicker sound which is wonderful on vocals and ambiance cues but not going to have the biggest treble sparkle. The King amp has more treble sparkle than the OTO. The Meishu is a boring ass amplifier in my opinion. Forget playing any rock or big band jazz on it. Empress and Jinro. And the Empress for half the price I prefer.
The 219IA is better than the Meishu IMO for rock - I'll give the Meishu the win on the gentle Eva Cassidy music but not for rock.
Edits: 06/27/17Follow Ups:
More garbage !
a good tooby has no such sound , there is no softening or added decay and while many toobs amplifiers have that effect , really good toob amplfiers are not an effects box like you describe..
This is another issue where Speaker measurements matter , take the impedance phase and magnitude , this is very critical on toob amps with output transformers/speaker relationship, choose the wrong tap and you create an effects box and since most compromise by only having a 4ohm tap for ZMin , you will have to be very selective when choosing your speakers to match your output transformers and amp limitations ..
*Sensitivity
* Impedance zmin -Transformer relationship
Speaker FR means nothing when your amplifier is an effects altering Box under real world load ..
Regards
Btw , every genre of amplfiers known to man resides here , SS ,toobs and hybrids, what you wont find are small woody colored 2 way speakers looking for an effects amplfier ..
Tube amplifiers sound different from eachother. That's why tube manufacturers make different tube amps to appeal to the appetites of different people. Thats why I laugh at the idiots who always claim I am all AN all the time. The OTO is an EL84 and I like the EL 84. I would not buy the Soro or Meishu. None of these three amplifiers sound the same. They each have their appeal. That's why they've sold them all for 25+years.
And the capitalist market decides on the quality of speakers over the long run. Speakers you buy new for $3000 and 10 years later you sell for $3,500.
A few cranks on a forum can say whatever they wish. The sales figures, the audiophile market, the reviews, and the blind level matched sessions is what speak. And nefative constant spiral threads actually generate more free advertising for the speaker. So every time you go after them...mire sales for Auduo Note. PS it's also how I got noticed and into becoming a reviewer. It's peiple like you who allow me to get 40-60% off stereo equipment. So thank you for making me richer. Plus when i say stuff i get 70000 unique hits on my opinions...while you have 30 people reading a forum about what you have to say. Chortle chortle.
BTW Bose outsells AN, makes them superior per your typical ironic rants ..., :)
There is this thing called apples to apples comparisons.
Bose doesn't sell to audiophiles (they aren't apples they're doughnuts) - they sell to people who read GQ and who know nothing about high end audio - please list 5 reviewers who own current Bose as their primary listening system.
Even keeping it apples to apples (high end audiophile speaker brands) between say $5k and $10k designed for a Medium average sized room - Considering that the speakers are AN's tertiary business and many brands only design and manufacturer speakers - there is a high proportionality of AN J and E owners among the review press who have gone out and auditioned large portions of the competition. B&W is the largest selling Audiophile approved speaker maker. I bet more stereo reviewers own Audio Note than own B&W in that price range for example.
Magnepan would be high on the list as well - and while I don't particularly like the sound of Magnepan loudspeakers I am not blind to admit that a lot of people like them including reviewers. I don't begrudge Magnepan fans and owners for raving on about something they like.
Well, maybe you are right and maybe not. I have a 300B amp (JJ322) that has huge Double "C" core output transformers...like the Meishu signature and it doesn't sound at all syrupy or "carmel" colored. And why then do I hear something simliar with other amps on those speakers? Your hypothesis doesn't hold too much water, IMO. All the more reason to try it at home if possible.
I don't have a favorite powerful SS amp...
What does playing a speaker at 105db have to do with sound quality? Says a lot about where you are coming from soundwise...Classical music, btw, is the hardest test of a system, bar none. I can also promise you that my Odeons can do 105db with far less strain and far more impact. What does the loudness have to do with colorations? I will tell you, it only exaggerates them. The more the drivers have to move and the more the cabinet resonates the worse it gets. At 105db, you won't even see the woofers on my speakers move because the horn is doing all the work. Linearity...its a bitch.
Maybe the REAL problem is what Stereophile found out that AN speakers are not nearly as sensitive as they claim to be and 8 watts from Meishu is not enough. That would make a lot of sense.
Can't comment on the Meishu vs. Empress+M3...you could be right. I know that the TNT reviewer preferred the Ayon Crossfire (orginal MKI) to his M3+Quest monos. If Peter Q. has trouble designing with the 300B then why does he have so many amps with it?
I do not believe the 300B is an inferior tube to the others you mentioned. It is a very linear tube. It has to be used correctly and this it is probably less colored than other tubes...that's physics.
"The 219IA is better than the Meishu IMO for rock - I'll give the Meishu the win on the gentle Eva Cassidy music but not for rock"
Could be but it is probably speaker dependent. BTW. I found the LM219 to be too colored, which is why I bought the Wall monos and later the Crossfire III. It was ok and good for the money.
"You aren't getting perfection at these lower price points you just don't get it all - so AN compromises by doling out a darker chocolatey and thicker sound which is wonderful on vocals and ambiance cues but not going to have the biggest treble sparkle. "
A Meishu Silver Phono is not a cheap amp. It costs more than my Ayon I think and a lot more than my JJ322, which is about a $6K amp and doesn't sound at all chocolatey. The Ayon is light years away from chocolatey. Read the review on TNT from Geoff Husband...it tells the story nicely.
What about the very expensive AN amps with the 300B, starting with the Conquest Silver signature (about 20K), P4 balanced ($35K) and Kegon ($95K)?? You going to tell me that a Jinro sounds better than the Kegon?
"But Peter will say his amps are connecting the dots and provide proper note to note flow which may be but other amps have more splash in the treble"
I don't know any good SETs that have splashy treble. Sounds like an excuse for poor extension of his transformers.
Whatever, the Meishu has been in the lineup of AN for nearly ever and it is something that Peter Q. clearly supports and is often considered to the sweet spot in terms of price/performance in the AN line. Maybe it sucks but if so, why has it not been upgraded significantly in all this time? Your opinion, notwithstanding of course. Maybe you should write to Peter and tell him that the Meishu, in your opinion is damaging his companies reputation?
Tube amps using different designs and different tubes sounf a lit different do they not? If they all sound the same why do you not buy the cheapest one?
The Empress and the Quest i have firectly compared and IMO the Empress has far more impact. It actually has 1 less watt per channel but siunds cinsiderably more powerful.
I see the La Triviata measurements and that has to be the WORST treble respinse of any speaker. So yes i know you like briiiiiight horrible horn shout. Awful design at $10k says much about their crappy speakers usingvcheap parts quality. The reviewer also hated it. Can't even get imto the Asian or US/Canada market. Bwahahaha.
And AN E speakers are pretty "dark" sounding according to Stereophile... Plus that model of Odeon didn't stay in production long. Mine don't measure anything like that in my room (yes, I measure mine...). Have you made a measurment of your speakers to see what they really look like?
Not to mention the audible colorations heard by JA (cabinet resonances and woofer discontinuity). The woofer is several db higher than the treble.
So, not exactly stellar measurements either...especially the nearly 6db lower sensitivity than claimed.
The drivers in my speakers are not cheap. The Beyma titanium compression driver was over 200 euro per driver and was also used in other exotic speakers like the Jadis Eurythmie. It is a highly regarded driver. The mid/bass is from Audax...not terribly expensive but Audax makes very good drivers (as good as the ones in the Stereophile review anyway). Daniel Dehaye of Ref 3a fame was a designer for them and the first Ref 3a drivers are clearly derived from Audax drivers.
Looking at the FR in Stereophile, it is no wonder they love to have a live cello as a comparison...it plays right into where the speaker emphasizes sound...Peter Q. is clever that way...
Question for RGA.
I don't know about Morricab himself, but I remember that his wife (or ex-wife?) is a violinist, and it seems to me that he has a grand/baby grand piano at home. So, I have some confidence that he has a clue about real musical instrument sound. I think he also has some background in electronics. (Morricab, please correct me and add whatever seems appropriate.)
So, my question to RGA is: As an adult (as opposed to when you were in high school), do you or have you played an instrument at a reasonably high level of performance, and do you play in any sort of professional or semi-professional ensemble? (Guitar and rock bands don't count.) And, do you have ANY education in the fields of audio and acoustics?
The reason I ask is that you promote yourself as being some sort of expert in the field of hi-fi, but your profile doesn't contain any info about your qualifications. I "get it" that you've listened to a lot of gear and talked with a lot of people, but what is your audio, acoustical and musical education and background?
Thanks, and now back to our regularly scheduled debate.
:)
Image from Gearbox Recording studios
No I do not play music and no I have no electronics background. And No I do not purport to be an expert in either field. In fact I am one of the only reviewers who objects to the word "professional" when discussing audio equipment reviewers because a professional body (Law, Education, Medicine) can boot people from the profession for various misconduct - and requires specific training and expertise in the field that is objective. Audio Equipment reviewing has none of that.
But let me ask you what you are driving at? I think you are seeking credibility. So if a person is a musician or an electronics engineer or recording engineer then they are more credible.
Actually I see your point and in certain fields I would agree with you. For instance if you were deciding between me and an engineer to design you a bridge - hire the engineer because if I do it you will surely plunge to your demise.
But I think you will find an issue with your argument almost immediately because in fact it doesn't matter if I have a degree in music or engineering. Let me illustrate why?
Can you evaluate the quality of a car without being a car designer or a mechanic? Of course you can. You may not be able to describe in glorious detail why the car sucks in the corner but you can certainly tell that it sucks in the corner by driving the car.
Can you evaluate a movie without being a film director or a cinematographer? Yes. Via experience with enough movies and some interest in learning you can offer a lot of reasons to support why a film is good or bad. Without any technical knowledge of any kind. A film may very well be a technical marvel and bore you to death. Just as a very simple low budget film with camera mistakes can be so well executed that is can turn the industry on end (The film Halloween comes to mind).
And what If I loved a product and raved about it and then a bunch of musicians and recording engineers came along and also started raving. In other words if I tell you the AN E is a good speaker based on my listening evaluations and you say - well RGA doesn't have an engineering degree and he doesn't play an instrument so the AN E sucks and Morricab who has a wife that plays a vioin, and he has an engineering degree must be correct.
But if you go down that route of musicians and degrees being more "truthful" then all I have to do to win that argument is to merely show you that more famous musicians and more famous engineers stand behind the AN E. So in that case I just have to present some people who from an experience and background perspective blow Morricab out of the water.
So here you go.
Steve Hoffman is a mastering/recording engineer for the following groups:
He has remastered over 500 Audiophile quality Compact Discs and LP's [and SACD] working with such artists as:
The Eagles, The Doors, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, The Beach Boys, Nat 'King' Cole, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Ray Charles, Roy Orbison, Cream, The Cars, Blondie, Jim Croce, Linda Ronstadt, Jethro Tull, The Doobie Brothers, Jackson Browne, Steve Miller Band, Elton John, Van Halen, Bonnie Raitt, Al Green, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Stan Getz, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Art Pepper, Rod Stewart, Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Peggy Lee, Wes Montgomery and many, many, others.
So would you say that he has more professional experience with MUSIC than someone who merely has a wife who plays the violin?
This is what Steve Hoffman owns
Audio Note TT-2 Deluxe/Arm 3 v1, UK IO-1 MC/AN S9L/step-up.
DAC4.1X Balanced D to A,
CD Transport 3.
M9 preamp,
M6 RIAA phono preamp.
Ginrei monoblocks,
Jinro integrated,
OTO phono SE Signature integrated.
AN-E/SPx HE Alnico speakers,
AN-E/SPe speakers.
Sogon LX96 bi-wire speaker wire,
Sogon 50 interconnects, Isis interconnects.
So on the music experience and recording engineering mastering engineering front it doesn't get a whole lot more experienced.
So if you want to rely on the music experience or engineering front then this is a good start wouldn't you say.
There are world class classical composers, pianists, reviewers, recording engineers, audio engineers, who own Audio Note.
Peter Van Wellenswaard (Stereophile contributing engineer)
https://www.stereophile.com/features/357/index.html
See what speakers he is using for his measurements
Peter Bruninger (Stereophile/TAS AV reviews owns them and recently awarded it loudspeaker of the year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyrRemcQ-rA
Peter attends more audio shows than anyone has heard all the speakers Morricab has heard and has the bucks and experience.
Wes Philips (Stereophile hailed AN E as the best hi-fi he has ever heard) https://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/index.html
Kevin Fiske (Hi-Fi Critic) owns AN E
Hi-Fi Choice magazine uses the AN E as their reference loudspeaker and has won both blind tests it was in - the AN J also won its blind test)
Chris Redmond (6 moons owns them) http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/christopher/christopher.html
That's off the top of my head - don't even get me started on all the reviewers in the non English press that own them and who are musicians.
Piano machine of dreams and the AN E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgcPGi76LYU
And guess what - it still only comes down to the person's ears. One person may be able to explain the technical issues of a product and write up glorious detailed white papers talking about the technical feats of a given tweeter - but it doesn't in fact make them hear better. JA doesn't have better hearing ability than Art Dudley just because he can measure a loudspeaker in a more sophisticated manner.
And guess what - all the blather and all the experts and the sheer number of reviewers and musicians and engineers I could probably work hard to add to the list STILL doesn't mean you will like them. I mean there are people who hate cats (for the life of me I can't understand that) but there are and me touting 50 reasons why a cat is better than a dog is never going to change the Dog fan's mind. (I like dogs too).
The problem with morricab is that he ignores all these reviewers and engineers and musicians who have heard all the gear and like AN. None of those people count. What counts is that RGA likes AN and he does not and many years back before he ever heard Audio Note he was in forum arguments with Peter Qvortrup and thus merely has an axe to grind - it doesn't matter what AN puts out - he hates it before he even walks in the door.
Here are few recent reviews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZLPv6CH_o
Hi-Fi Choice 2013 comparing it to a previous system of 700 watts per channel.
Rage,It's Pretty obvious your lack of experience with SOTA systems is your biggest Achilles heel , followed by bad ideology and dogma ..
Sad really,
There was once a time when being a reviewer required standards , I remember vividly meeting for the first time , Pearson , Norton, JA, Gordon Holt, as others , my, my, how this has changed...
Regards
Edits: 06/29/17
Hey man just read my next review - I sent in lots of pictures I had you in mind. I know you say you only like reviews with lots and lots of pictures. Not terribly surprised.
Perhaps we can make a comic book version just for you.
I'm puzzled about the majority of your reply, including the photo and references to other folks, which seems to be irrelevant.
I simply asked what your professional/semi-professional background and education is, given that you present yourself as an expert in audio.
So, the short answer is: No, you're not a musician, you don't have an electronics background, nor any education in audio or acoustics. Have I got that right?
I answered your question near the beginning of the post.Sorry if I misread your intention. Lots of people look for different things in audio. You seemed to be genuine in wanting to know if what I like is supported by Musicians/technical people. Since I am not a musician or bother with the technical side of things anymore - I simply pointed you to people who are.
I do have a girlfriend who is a symphony level violinist and she also plays the piano, cello, Theremin (Star Trek), guitar, and can sing.
The question you should ask is if I have an Acoustic Engineering degree. There is a difference say in acoustic engineering and mechanical engineering. If I were a mechanical engineer my expertise on psycho-acoustics would be just as worthless as a degree in basket weaving.
Edits: 06/29/17
"The problem with morricab is that he ignores all these reviewers and engineers and musicians who have heard all the gear and like AN. None of those people count. What counts is that RGA likes AN and he does not and many years back before he ever heard Audio Note he was in forum arguments with Peter Qvortrup and thus merely has an axe to grind - it doesn't matter what AN puts out - he hates it before he even walks in the door."
This is full of completely false statements! I don't ignore those people's opinions...just don't rate them as highly as my own...just like they would value their own opinions more than mine...including you (except when you like to use the old "appeal to authority" trick).
As I have also said, it is not true that I have an issue with AN per se and think their electronics designs are interesting.
It is true that I have not yet heard a demo of an all AN system that left me drooling on the floor and figuring out how to rob a bank to get all level 5 gear. It is also true that I have not heard an all Level 5 system (bits and pieces at that level but not a whole system).
Whereas I have heard KONDO systems that did leave me hungry for such a system; however, we can both agree that Kondo and AN UK are quite different in their designs.
It is false that I have an axe to grind with Peter Q. I don't get that emotional about it as you would seem to project upon me. My main objection is the speaker designs, which have obvious flaws (or design features I guess if you are very generous) that have been massaged to get a particular "sound" from the speakers. Then the claim that AN gear gives more contrast to recordings except the speakers will sing with one coloration (see stereophile resonance measurements) that can be heard on any recording that excites them (practically all). Seems rather contradictory, no?
Now, I would be willing to ignore this contradiction IF I had heard a setup that blew my socks off like some Kondo systems (non-Kondo speakers though) I have heard over the years. Of course all the AN systems had AN speakers...since I don't see a fundamental problem with the electronics (and I have heard all levels but not the highest all together) but the sound is never WOW...usually Meh or OK. Again, observation not dogma.
I actually like the design concepts with his electronics and would love to try them out one day. I have said as much...so much for the axe to grind.
I always walk in with an open mind, thinking "maybe I could by some of this stuff if I am sufficiently impressed". That is the truth. So it is false to say that I hate it before I walk in the door. Otherwise, I simply wouldn't walk in the door. I hear potential...unrealized. So, I walk-in sit down and listen for a while until I realize it just ain't there. Maybe some day I will try a digital source, amp and cables with my speakers and become a convert...or not.
So, plenty of false characterization in your post.
For the record, it was my ex that plays violin (she is 1st chair (Konzertmeisterin) in an orchestra in Germany now) and I have a Ph.D in Analytical Chemistry with electronics experience in designing analytical instrumentation.
Graph is from Stereophile. The matching review is quite interesting. https://www.stereophile.com/content/odeon-la-traviata-loudspeaker-measurementsOdeon horns Obvious measurements issues?
Everything will sound bright and obnoxious on them. Contrast? Which level of bright do you like.
Edits: 06/29/17
I mean I know that the AN speakers all look and measure similarly but the Odeon models are quite diverse and therefore not all measure like this one example.
As I have said, I have measured mine in-room and it is nothing like this plot. Nor do they sound bright.
If you read the review, MF was puzzled why this model doesn't sound nearly as good as the Tosca he had heard previously and whetted his appetite for the brand. The Tosca (since I am sure you wouldn't know the lineup at that time) was the little brother of my La Bohemes. Same compression tweeter but with an 8 inch back horn loaded design rather than a 10 inch back loaded design that mine have.
"The Tosca's mid/HF horn was integrated with a conventional-looking baffle also containing a reflex-loaded cone woofer. For all intents and purposes, it looked like a normal loudspeaker, but what it was doing with a CD of Sonny Rollins' Way Out West was anything but. "
"I still remember what drew me to the Toscas at the Frankfurt HiFi show."
That is how my friends have reacted to hearing my La Bohemes (3 of them went right out and bought Odeons) at my place with a good SET amp on them.
Funny enough the measurements of the AN E are nearly a mirror image with a bumped up lower mid/upper bass shelving down by several db into the mids and highs. They sound that way everytime I have heard them...guess it speaks to the consistency of the design...
One friend had Odeon 32s (now he has 38s) and we measured those and they also look nothing like this stereophile plot. I just talked last night to another friend that has Rigolleto MkIIs that was raving about the bass they produce...if anything they sound more in the direction of ANs balancewise...but still with that full horn speed.
So, please stop parading around the one measurement that you have found...we can do the same with the rather crappy measurements from AN speakers...you want perfect measurements then buy a Magico.
The difference when someone argues that speaker A has a crappy measurements versus speaker B that has crappy measurements or that speaker C has great measurements is that at some point the sound of the three speakers should reflect the overall listening experience.So speaker C should always be chosen by the listeners as best and yet JUST at Stereophile you have AN E supporters: More than supporters. And like I tell you over and over and you seem to stubborn to read and get it to your skull that AN E is not primarily a speaker maker and the proportionality of press for the E is more than virtually any other speaker maker (that solely make speakers as their only line of business)
Art Dudley bought the speakers
Peter Van Wellenswaard bought the speakers
Peter Bruninger Bought the speakers
Wes Philips "Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/index.html#UumILXJdYLJixccp.99When these guys or any others buys an Odeon speaker please let me know. I'm not interested in your "my buddy bought an Odeon" who cares? I have 10 buddies who bought AN speakers. One of the men who took down Nixon bought AN speakers. Reviewers like Bruninger have auditioned virtually "everything" - The "my buddies" has not.
A good scientists knows the difference between correlation and overwhelming evidence versus anecdotal evidence.
So while some can say the AN E measures bad all they like - the subjective response was that all the speakers all these reviewers have heard and just from Stereophile were quite taken with them.
My favorite speakers are not AN by the way but in fact horns. But the horns that I have liked are ludicrously expensive and so I do not think it's fair to be comparing $50,000-$400,000 horns to $3k-$10k Audio Notes. I would never say these speakers are designed for hi-fi "roller audiophiles" that own music as a means to listen to their stereos. You want the system discussion. Music over the gear for me.
I am less interested in the measurement. Overwhelming and consistent reviews from all around the world and every publication for 40 years! Does actually merit.Michael Jackson also sold a boatload of albums and had an immense talent - I can recognize that fact without personally liking his music. You are unable to recognize something that is quality even if you don't personally like it. Objective scientists and critics have that capability of removing their own personal tastes from the fact that others have their tastes.
I can recognize that Magnepan is successful - I can recognize why people like the sound and I can recognize that for many it is the panacea to their musical bliss. I personally don't care for the sound. I don't have to like it to be able to recognize that other people do.
I see no end game win for you or why you keep bringing the speaker up. It's okay for you not to like them. No one likes everything. You seem to feel the need to make me not like them because you say so. Or that I need to like something else more. The something else that I do like more are extremely costly.
Guess what - Peter Qvortrup also likes other speakers more. He's the only designer that I know of who has actually publicly stated on this very forum that he likes other speakers more than his AN E - and he actually provided a list of those speakers. He is also working on other speakers right now.
So if you're under some impression that I think the only answer is the AN E you've deluded yourself. There are countless speakers that I would be happy to have. It's just that in virtually all cases those other speakers cost significantly more money and don't have the overall balanced presentation. Teresonic Ingenium - great - but $20,000 versus the AN E/lx at $5800. The AN doesn't have the midrange openess but it has IMO better treble and better bass depth and drive - it can handle trance music and hard rock better. But the Ingenium has no crossover and is more transparent and has better attack. I could list a T Chart as to why the Ingenium is better and why the E is better. They're both not perfect by any stretch but I personally demand more perfection at $20k than I do at $10k or $5k.
Further some of those speakers I like better are not just way more expensive but are designed for way bigger rooms - and will suck in a medium or small room. Thus even if I did like the Grand Slamm or MAXX 3 from Wilson or the Soundlab U1 - the point is moot since they can't fit in normal spaces.
Edits: 06/30/17 06/30/17 06/30/17 06/30/17
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