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In Reply to: RE: Those darn measurements ! posted by RGA on June 24, 2017 at 18:46:27
I have no idea about 5 best, but some good ones:
JBL M2
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-science-and-marketing-of-sound.html
KEF Reference 1, obviously requiring an additional subwoofer for full range.
http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1298:nrc-measurements-kef-reference-1&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
Magico S5
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1043:nrc-measurements-magico-s5-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
Revel Ultima Salon 2, perhaps professional monitors from Quested,
Follow Ups:
It's interesting because you can find these and several other speakers on their site that are deemed to be good measuring and then you listen to these and they don't sound much alike in the least bit.
Using the word accuracy in mathematics we say 2+2=4 and that is an accurate answer. And perhaps we can say 3 is more accurate than 12,879. In math we have a reference in other words an absolute that 4 is the correct answer the accurate answer. But with Audio all we can do is make a guess based on some statistical polling of opinions in a test environment.
And then list some speakers that sound rather wildly different from each other and proclaim them to be accurate. The last time I asked for this I think I got a list that included big horns, omni-directionals, panels, transmission lines, single drivers, two-ways, line arrays, and actives. And a lot of these people are degree holding engineers, recording engineers and you get different answers.
It's actually really weirdly fascinating to me and it's probably why there is so much heated debate over which is right.
I can't speak for the JBL M2s because I've never had the chance to hear them. But the others don't sound wildly different from each other. Aside from their bass, where I hear some significant differences due to alignment and tuning and how they load the room, I think the Revel Ultima2 line, Kef Reference line, and Magico S series all sound surprisingly similar from the lower midrange up. I'll add the Dynaudio Confidence and Evidence to that too.
Wildly is probably not the best word but I would use significantly instead.
Speakers of a similar design stripe will share common traits - but then so do SS amplifiers. Let's face it the reason no one can tell the difference between most SS amps is because most SS amp makers buy the same parts from the same parts suppliers. So you ring up Torroids 'R' Us and you select the 200 watter and then buy 10 cent caps you might choose brand A while manufacturer chooses brand B but it's largely the same. So it's not a big wonder why in blind level matched conditions people can't tell the difference.
And that would apply to speaker makers who open up their computer software program (that they purchased along with other competitors) and then they all buy a polypropylene/Kevlar 6 inch woofer and a similar tweeter in a similar shaped cabinet all following the same approach.
The other major problem is that few people are listening to these things in the same room. So we listen to the KEF in January with Constellation and we get an impression and then in May we listen to the Magico on another system.
But I have auditioned Magico back to back with Usher the Kef Blade2, Focal Utopia and TAD. They are all premium priced loudspeakers and likely all measure pretty good. They all sounded good to me but I can't say any of them sounded alike. I think I could live with all of these with work on finding the right partnering gear.
And that would apply to speaker makers who open up their computer software program (that they purchased along with other competitors) and then they all buy a polypropylene/Kevlar 6 inch woofer and a similar tweeter in a similar shaped cabinet all following the same approach.
I don't think any of the brands we're talking about do that. Revel, KEF, Magico, Dynaudio all design and make their own drivers in house. And all with different materials and design approaches.
The other major problem is that few people are listening to these things in the same room. So we listen to the KEF in January with Constellation and we get an impression and then in May we listen to the Magico on another system.
Definitely true. However, I would say that most loudspeakers have a personality or house sound that shows up to some degree regardless of where they're playing. For example, every Focal speaker I've heard sounds like it has a "smile" response, kind of a mild inverse Fletcher-Munson curve, with bass and treble just a bit elevated. Focus Audio's speakers have a slightly richer than neutral tone and a little peak around 1 KHz that enhances the in-room presence of the center image. Harbeth's always sound a bit soft and dull to me. And so on.
One thing I like a lot about the Magico S series is that they don't have much of a personality. Even if they're not somebody's cuppa, they are still great tools to use when auditioning other equipment. That's how I got turned on to them.
Yes I agree - certainly house sound and the product having their own voice (typically) such that regardless of room you are still hearing the speaker's character. Analogous to having someone playing a violin in your living room, and your bedroom and your bathroom - you still aren't mistaking it for a cello.Magico I have heard only 4 times - The best I heard them sound was with Technical Brain amplifiers and that was impressive. Unfortunately, Technical Brain while they sounded utterly sensational apparently have (or had) an issue with reliability.
I think perhaps my problem is I send out some mixed messages - I have certain generalities but then several examples that are exception. Similar to English grammar.
I looked up my dagogo past commentaries but when the website changed we lost several articles.
As you probably know what my general preference is for HE/SET. But I am not tied to that absolutely.
I had a list of ten favorite systems at CES (all of which I would be happy to live with) back then and Magico/Technical brain was one of the ten in the over $10k priced systems. I also had a sub $10k list. Everything was based on the price of the speakers.
Here was my list to give you an idea of the varying types of stuff I like - to be blunt I should probably be called a speaker slut.
Alphabetical order (under $10K)
* Audio Note AN-E/Spe HE Loudspeakers
* Gallo 3.5
* Harbeth Super HL5
* Kingsound Prince II Electrostatic loudspeakers
* Reference 3a Grand Veena
* Sonist Concerto 3
* Sonist Recital 3
* Studio Electric Type Three Loudspeakers
* Wharfedale Diamond 10
* Uniwave Tek CHATEAU REFERENCE MONITORS
Rooms with speakers above $10,000 (alphabetical order):* Acapella High Violoncello II
* Acoustic Zen Crescendo
* Audio Note AN-E Sec Signature (They had two rooms at the show)
* Magico/Technical Brain
* Perfect 8 Technologies (The Force)
* Silbatone Aporia Full Range
* Sony SS AR1 loudspeakers
* Teresonic Ingenium loudspeakers
* Trenner and Friedl RA Box
* Usher Be 10And at the next show CAS 2012. The best five rooms I picked in alphabetical order.
* Acoustic Zen Crescendo
* Focal Scala Utopia
* MBL 101 (and the 120) E MK II Radialstrahler
* Von Gaylord "The Return of the Legend" speakers
* YG Acoustics Anat III Studio SignatureSo speakers: Horns, Omni-directionals, Narrow baffle (Floyde E Toole school), speakers with metal tweeters, ribbons, electrostats, hybrids, low efficiency, high efficiency, single drivers, lots of drivers, fat and skinny
Edits: 06/27/17
I must get out to hear the M2 , i have to admit the only times i have heard Horns and said special were when they were being driven by an SET amplifier ..On SS and regular toobs ..... Meh
There is something to them and how they couple the low wattage of an SET to the room , it's truly different and on acoustic instruments they convey the sound and presence of a real instruments in a manner unmatched by any other transducer i have ever heard..
Granted not all horns do this and overall i do prefer large scale dynamic speakers, ribbon Hybrids and well Done ESL's...
I tend to connect to the music better through them than horns ...
Regards
Edits: 06/25/17
I would like to hear the M2 also. I've heard plenty of JBL PA speakers which are not my cuppa, but supposedly the M2 is an ace studio monitor. I haven't heard the Everest or K2 either, they seem to be marketed in Asia for the most part.
Aside from PA speakers, I have rather limited experience with horns. Just at shows really.
Well, you will be interested to know that last Saturday I had a friend come over and bring his Devialet 120 to hook up to my Odeon horns.
The result was...ok actually. It is smooth and the highs were not as disturbing as I usually find them with Class D. Bass was also surprisingly good (ok we boosted the Devialet by 4.5db...it has some eq function built in). However, and for me this is a big, HOWEVER, the soundstage and images within that soundstage flattened out considerably, thus significantly lessening the realism effect from the music. My friend heard this as well, sighed, and said he was happy it sounded as good as it did on the horns. He has Reference 3a speakers and I have heard this Devialet on those speakers too and it sounded better on the Odeons.
That was with digital. With analog (feeding the TT directly into the Devialet as it has my cartridge on file) it was not so great and we listened rather briefly to it this way because it was a rather large step back from my rig (Silvaweld phono pre, NAT Plasma pre, Ayon Crossfire III).
Resolution between the two systems (devialet vs. toobs) was pretty similar (i.e. there were no ear opening revelations from one to the other in terms of details and small sounds) but micro and macro dynamics were better served with the toobs and the above mentioned spatial qualities (more open and yet more 3d and palpable with the toob rig). The net effect was realism factor was significantly higher whereas Devialet kind of overdamped things. Not too badly, mind you, it was a pretty decent listen and if you didn't compare/contrast you might even really like that sound. In the end we went back to my setup and I was like AH and my friend was nodding his head as well. Still, he paid relatively little for his Devialet compared to my rig so he was satisfied on that point.
Have you tried any SET's on the Odeon's ?I like the Devialets but in mono form , they are nothing sound wise like what a good SET does and i have never heard a single Devialet playing in stereo mode my HIFi friends who have them all went to mono mode after being very disappointed in them in stereo mode and said the contrast was huge . A pity you never tried feeding your phono pre into the Devialet for a quick comparison ..
Regards
Edits: 06/26/17
What do you think the Ayon Crossfire is? Before that Wall Audio Opus M50 monos (parallel 6C33C) before that JJ322 (parallel 300B...still have this one) and before that NAT Symbiosis SE (hybrid SET). Also, we have run the KR Audio VA350i on it as well as some push/pull triode (Vac 30/30 and Pure Sound A30). So, mainly ONLY set has been run on them...at 98db/watt there is no need for more.
Funny that you mention mono. I have a friend who has the biggest monos from Devialet and couples them with a really nice pair of Piega planar hybrid speakers. However, it doesn't really sound very good. That is why he has now built another system around the Odeon No. 32, Lamm M1.1 hybrids, Lampizator Golden Atlantic and soon to be acquired Aries Cerat Incito preamp. Even without the Incito it whips the crap out of the Devialet/Piega combo. You put the electronics from that "big rig" onto the Piegas and it might very well sing nearly as sweetly.
Of course, would going mono with Devialets REALLY make a sonic improvement on a speaker where we are normally cruising well below 1 watt of output on the amp? Hard to understand that really. How can having even more circuitry cure the problem?
For me, going with monoblocks is more about the benefits of separation of signal, and extremely short speaker cables than power, watts are cheap these days.Martin
Edits: 06/28/17
Good watts are not cheap at all...
Go back to 1950 and try to buy a 200watt/channel amp, then get back to me on that lol.
I wouldn't have wanted one then and I don't want one now.
Not the point, but if that's what you want to take from it go for it lol.Martin
Edits: 06/28/17
Which model Pieaga ...?
TC90x I think. Pretty new ones.
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