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What's a good vintage model for orchestral music? It should have transients, imaging AND tight extended bass. (not to be picky.) I was wondering if a beat-up Klipsch Heresy with an old tube amp would be cost-effective. I considered Celestion 6xx with a subwoofer or even old Cambridge Soundworks Model 6 since I was impressed by their 17s which do some amazing things even though they are obviously compromised in the bass. The large Advents sound a bit slow to me -- used to own a pair. Maybe a KEF model would be most cost-effective. Ref One though now we're getting over a kilobuck which is a lot for moi. What about old DCM Time Windows? They go pretty cheap. I like cj Synthesis but they are very rare and the ported bass can be a little iffy. Just fishing for ideas. I might not buy anything for a while. Thanx!
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
Follow Ups:
Big vintage Bozak: concert grand, symphony,,..
...
I have a set of 1969 Bozak Concert Grands that are bi amped and rebuilt crossovers that is nice with classical music. Maybe one of the best. Need a large room to though.
Edits: 05/22/17
I used to sell Klipsch and still own a pair of Heresys, but aside from dynamics, I would not recommend them for classical, although a subwoofer or 2 would help considerably. Celestion and KEF are excellent choices. Time Windows never worked for me. I never understood their popularity. Energy is often overlooked, but they did very well with classical, particularly if you go up the line. Spendors can be breathtaking if you don't need to play loud. Big ADS speakers will play loud and have a relatively neutral balance, but are not as transparent as Spendors. As I said ADS will play loud, really loud with the right amplification. There was a reason why Telarc used them.
Dave
nt
Can be found for under a grand, have superlative imaging and soundstaging, natural timbres and are easier to drive than later thiels, and not as bright. Don't know your amp capabilities or how big you room is, but I'm driving mine with 40w/ch class A triode(push-pull) in a 17x15x10 ft room, and they sound fabulous. Very good, tight bass down into the 30's. I listen to classical 99% of the time.
Only Thiel I could ever listen to, very nice speaker.
nt
nt
nt
That is SO 50s / early 60s. Good old days in most ways.
I remember listening to giant Bozaks and Empire whatever they were calleds. And AR's live versus recorded concerts.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
will travel! :)
A friend has a pair of modded Celestion SL600s with the 6000 dipole subs and his system is the best I know on orchestral music and indeed on anything else. Surrounding kit is also good of course.
Dave
Plus Eq OR DSP for time/phase and FR Eq - when you can afford it.
I can't, yet.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
First, there is probably no speaker that "does it all," especially with regard to classical, but some of the classic speakers mentioned, such as QUAD, Tannoy, and Stratus Gold, do most of it very well.
Less commonly mentioned these days, but less expensive, is the Spendor BC1, which did it all in its day.
ADS L910 they were used in classical master labs and can rock too. They can also be placed against the wall if needed. If you can find them they go for under a 1000
I have a pr in my bedroom system.
My choice
Your question falls under the category of "ask a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different answers".
Anyway-provided you have an adequate room and high current amp you can't go wrong with the MG1.6.
these days they hover around $800-$900.
Yep, and add a small REL sub and you'll have magic.
I like many of the suggestions made but an obvious one would be Shahinians. The obelisk definitely has a slice of magic with classical music. Amazing bass for a little speaker. I find the omnidirectional approach well suited for classical.
Yes tyhe Obelisk is a good "does it all speaker - though because it is still available does it qualify as "vintage" I bought my pair in 1980 - sold for engagement ring money in 1982. Still married, Still remember excellent listening sessions (and parties) where the Shahinian's served up their "Polyradial" sound!
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Totally forgot about this speaker. I would takes the Obelisks over the Maggie 1.6s. But I would stear clear of the Compass.
as long as you have matching amp.
.
Because if you are, having gone down this road a couple times , I find it's not that easy to do big classical well - at least not on the cheap.
I don't like horns. But I do like planars, and owned various Maggies for a few years. What I replaced them with, that truly satisfied my ears, were Alon IVs Mk II. They were $1200 used back in 1999, so they're probably selling for around 1K or maybe less now. They want some juice from the amp, at least 200 watts, and current too. But they will fill a large room with glorious, dynamic, large scale classical music, and be just as good on vocals and chamber. They are dipoles, so they need to be away from the back wall. But the Alon open baffle speakers are very open and unboxy sounding. (With the Alons, I felt like I was getting most of what I iked about planars but with better bass and dynamics.) If you have a smallish/medium sized room, Alon IIs would work, and they might be easier to find and cost less than the IVs. (There's a pair on A-gon now for $500.) See review of the IVs from TAS below.
A different path could be looking at something newer, like the GoldenEar Triton 7s. They don't come up used very often, but they do get traded in as folks upgrade to the newer model Tritons. They retail for only $1400 new so they are a steal used.
BTW, if you think vintage Quads are scary, Apogee Divas are truly terrifying! (But they sound wonderful.)
Thanks for the ideas and the link. I've heard Alons back in the 90s and thought they were good speakers albeit bulky. I like Maggies so that's a thought. There's a Golden Ear dealer a half mile away so I should go listen to some of those models. They make a $700 bookshelf model and I think it has a passive radiator. Not sure if it does bass well. I don't need pipe organ bass, but just a good solid foundation. Thanks again!
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
If considering speakers with passive radiators and want a big sound for little money Klipsch could still be on your radar. The KG 3.2 won't break your bank, looks awesome, doesn't need a sub, and will fill a large room.
Are you Serious about this??
IF so save up... and Buy a Firstwatt amp and a Pair of Tannoy dual concentric speakers.
You will Never want to upgrade again.. for as long as you shall live.
Even Nelson Pass uses this.. which should be ample endorsement :-)
Don't believe? Not my problem Mate.
which Tannoy model or models you are referring to. Thanks.
I have owned quite a few loudspeakers in my time including two Klipsch models (Cornwalls and Klipschorns). My experience with the Klipsch speakers is that they are quite colored. Horn colorations that make orchestral strings screechy and that obscure delicate timbral differences in orchestral instruments. If you want a high-efficiency speaker, used, at a reasonable price, I would recommend Altec Lansing Model 19s. I owned a pair of these on two different occasions and found them less colored and harsh than Klipsch's products. I bought one pair for $1,800 and another for $1,200. Current listings on e-Bay asking $4,000 + are way too high, which would explain why they haven't sold despite being on offer for months.
For dynamic speakers, I have enjoyed PSB products. I used to have Stratus Golds which I thought excellent, so much so that when I went looking for a pair of small speakers for a second system, I went for Stratus Minis--a really nice little stand-mounted two-way.
Currently, I have B&W Matrix 801 Series II which are, by a fairly significant margin the best dynamic speakers I have heard. Clean, detailed and articulate with excellent bass, I think for a used price of about $2,000-$2,500, you could do a lot worse.
In the planar area, I have owned Magnepan 1.6s, which were very nice speakers, but my final vote would go for Quad ESL-63s, which play plenty loudly enough for me, even on big classical works like those of Mahler or Bruckner, have quite acceptable bass, and are extremely free of colorations. The diaphragms in these are so large and light that they respond nearly instantly to the starts and stops of musical sounds. Transients are thus so naturally reproduced that they are uncannily real. Ravishing orchestral string tone, no squealing tenors and sopranos, no listener fatigue.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for input! I have always wanted to own Quads, but even used they are pricey, and expensive to ship. Do you find them reliable? I imagine repairs are very expensive. How do you find the detailing on PSBs?
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
The glue used to attach the stator's to the grid frames deteriorates over time. Besides for re-glueing, my experience is that augmenting them with a sub and crossing them over at few hundred Hz relieves a lot of the stress, increasing reliability.
I paid $1,800 for my first pair of Quads (ESL-63) and $1,300 for the second pair--those I have presently. I spent about $600-800 on the second pair because, though they were working, I wanted them gone over and some minor problems resolved. I do not consider that excessive. I think maybe the best strategy is to buy a pair cheap ($800 or so) that are in decent cosmetic condition but aren't playing, and have them fully restored--often ca. $2-3K depending on what needs to be done. Anything can break--foam driver surrounds rot, crossovers go out of spec., etc.
Quads are not for arena-rock volumes--they will break, but at reasonable listening levels, I would consider them reliable. One thing I would be cautious about is buying one of the newer Quads (Made in China). I believe there are genuine quality control problems with them, and they are not substantially different from the ESL-63s, so I'd stick with the older ones. Otherwise, I found them pretty reliable. The first pair I had for about eight years. Regrettably I sold them. The present owner is very pleased with them, "magical" he said, and they are still going strong. For example:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/planars-quad-esl-63-fully-refurbished-2013-by-electrostatic-solutions-2017-04-04-speakers-63017-town-and-country-mo
I really think PSBs are excellent. If I were looking for a full range dynamic speaker used, at ca. $800 a pair, I would probably buy a pair of Stratus Gold i. Nice looking, smooth, low coloration speakers with robust bass. Paul Barton builds really outstanding-sounding speakers at bargain prices.
Thanks for the info! Can't yet afford Quads but there is a PSB dealer nearby!
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
I personally don't think that many vintage speakers could really do full orchestral as well as good modern ones, especially for < a kilobuck.Of course, smaller satellites & Quads could do chamber and limited dynamics orchestral extremely well, but there's still a limit.
I would look for large planars or planar-like, which will not be under a kilobuck.
Magnepan Tympani (will need expert checking & refurb)
B&W Matrix 801 for conventional with big bass. They had more even frequency response back then in the 80's than they do now, and that's why they were used in mastering studios.and then the really rare magic ones
Infinity IRS
Apogee Diva/Grand (!)
Personally I would not go quite so vintage if you don't want project---you could get a Magnepan 3 series, like 3.6 for $2000, add in a subwoofer or two and good crossover or even better room correction like Anti-Mode, Anthem or Dirac.
Edits: 04/10/17
I think any of the McIntosh XRT speakers are good for this purpose. They image well, have low distortion, and have great dynamic range.
Someone mentioned Infinity, and I agree, especially if it's sporting the Emit-K tweet. I'm a real fan, my man cave sports the original Modulus System with a pair of Belles I amps biamping the sats lol. Kind of overkill I know, but they never run out of steam. And the speakers are deserving of the best amplification I can afford, they're that good.As long as I'm on the subject why not let you here be the first to see the newly setup mancave. It's still only stereo which of course is paramount, but soon the two Carver TFM 15cb amps will see duty for movie watching driving the rear channels, with one bridged driving the center channel.
You asked specifically about the Heresy so why I commented on those first. Infinity and Klipsch couldn't be further apart in their aproach, one a highly sensitive easy to drive load, the other not so much. That's not to say Infinity didn't make some sensitive easy to drive speakers after Arnie left, the RS-325 for one, but it's not really their thing when you look at the higher end models. So good powerful amplification is kind of a must, flea watt amps shouldn't apply for the job.
Edits: 04/10/17 04/10/17 04/10/17
Hi guys! I know I'm asking the world for impossible, but: can you, or anyone, please throw the Modulus documentation on the scanner? I could only find the technical sheet for the satellites, but not the manual, so I am not sure what's with the know on the back of the speakers; and also I'd like the owner's manual for the sub, and possibly the sub's technical sheet... I just pieced together the entire system with original stands on Ebay; I had the satellites since the early 90s, but circumstances dictated that I had locked them away in storage for the past decade. So now I want to badly snuggle up to my beloved Modulus again :)
You don't mention the size of your room or what the power rating is on your amp but in a small to medium sized room my KEF 103.2 are great with classical and human voice.....I am using a Forte 1a 50 watt class A amp with mine....
I have 50 wpc NAD in a room around 15 feet square, but am hoping to go tube someday. I have been wondering about the 103.2. They are affordable, well-made, and a simple 2-way design that can retain its performance over time and compete with current speakers. Would you agree?
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
I totally agree. That's why I own some....
provide wonderfully tight bass and realistic scale for classical works.
Which are the Tympanis? I vaguely recall they had a number of models called Tympani. Are those better than later ones or what is the operative distinction? Thanks.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
They were the earliest (and largest) models dating back to the early 70s. The current models are more coherent and have higher transparency, but the big T-IIIs were superior at the low end, IMHO.
In simplified terms there was the 1-U and its updates, the III and the IV. It was hearing the eight panel IIIs in '74 that introduced me to them using Audio Research electronics. I had never before heard anything that realistic sounding with large scale symphonic content.
Click here for a list of the models. Here's the T-III:
It uses a pair of two-panel midrange/tweeters and a single four panel woofer.
Thats a serious setup .....
I'd love to hear it but not to ship it? I guess you would have to hire a train! One interesting thing I heard about Mags is that the design works best if the space behind them is infinite. That being impossible, a very large room works best, with the Mags out in the middle. Or so somebody was claiming.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
One interesting thing I heard about Mags is that the design works best if the space behind them is infinite.
Nonsense. They would lose some of their bass if the rear wave was totally lost. It is true, however, that large dipoles they need space behind them to breathe. The Rule of Thirds works very well for initial placement.
I've lived with dipoles for over forty years. Using measurements, I get the most neutral bass response with my big stats about eight feet out from the wall.
Although they need space and some serious amplification.
I bought a pair of Quad esl 63 last year and I am absolutely
happy with them. I mostly listen to classical music. Contrary to what many say they deliver enough clean bass and can be listened to outside the famous "sweet spot" without any major changes in sound.
Quad ESLs are probably beyond my budget. But isn't it dangerous to buy them used? I think of them as delicate speakers that nobody can repair except Quad, at a very high cost. Like buying a used sports car. Am I wrong?
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
More than 30K pairs of Quad esl 63 have been sold and there are numerous experts who are able to repair them. In Germany for example it is the Quad GmbH who had bought the original machines from Quad and is able to repair used models like the 57 and the 63. I bought a used pair which is more than 30 years old and it works fine.
Same, ESl63's with Gradient like subs. I use them primarily to listen to classical at low to mid level volume. They don't do as well with other types of music, but I am very happy with them for classical.
A used pair of Eminent Technology LFT-8Bs.
Instead of the Heresey try the Quartets- fuller range and with tubes probably not too bright
This isn't critical of Klipsch because I've never seriously listened to any in many years. So I'm just curious. I've read in various places that the Klipsch sound can tend toward brightness. Given the variable recording quality of massed violins in orchestral recordings, could the Klipsches tend toward glare or stridency?
-Bob
Edits: 04/09/17
The Heresy is a very flat sounding loudspeaker, surprisingly so. It doesn't tolerate cheap equipment though so if you think a vintage 70s receiver is going to sound as sweet as a good tube amp, it ain't.
I think the best way to put it is they are a "taste". The reason people like them for tubes is because they have a brighter top end. Now some vintage tube amps begin to roll off in just that range that the Klipsch are more forward in. Me personally - can't stand them. But like I said they are a taste.
I think a well balanced system should start with your amps and not need to be compensated for by your speakers.
I owned a pair of K-horns for several years. I listened to them full range briefly then disconnected the mid and high horns and used the bass bins along with my wide range and super tweeter horns. I found the mids and highs to be too harsh for my ears.
Another way to think of it is that Klipsch were designed in the early tube era and simply designed to the equipment in use at that time. Having said that their current bookshelf models are also aggressive in the treble. I wonder if it's a consequence of their high efficiency somehow.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
Nice pics!
Infinity speakers would be a consideration as well.
Heresy's will give you fast transients, good midrange, and tight response to their bottom limit, which I'd guess is somewhere in the high 40's at best. (Paul Klipsch once told me the Klipschorns "don't do much of anything below 40.") Heresy's are certainly a good place to start, and they can really sing with a good 30-watt tube amp. I've lived with Heresys and LaScalas, and enjoyed them both for years.
Another option is Spica TC-50's with a good powered subwoofer. You can find Spicas for $300 or less. Not the last word in resolving and detail, but hugely musical, great imaging, and easy to integrate with a sub (set at 6dB/octave at 80 Hz.)
Or.. Braun. Their L710 especially was quite special. They made lots of them, and A/D/S made more of the same in the U.S. under license, so finding a spare somewhat-working "parts" pair is doable.
The little Maggies (SMG, MMG, et al.) have great midrange, transients, and imaging, but not much down low.
One oddball: the Sequerra Met 7 Mk II. More extended up top than the Spicas, if not as smooth, and *very* surprising bottom end, which no one expects from small speakers. Superb imaging and transients. I lived with a pair for many years, without a sub, and was very happy. They are, sadly, very hard to find.
Yes, the Advent Loudspeaker is whumpy down low, but they do go *very* low. Stacked double Advents tighten up the bass a lot, and even bring out something of a decent midrange. Bring lots of high-damping-factor solid-state power - the more the better. They will never be the last word in transients or imaging.
Don't forget Vandersteen. They are all musical, and it's easy to find used pairs.
Good luck.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
They did many things well but IMO big orchestral was not one of them.
.
nt
Heresys should fill the bill down to about 50hz, and there's good output below that. But if you feel the need for that last octave after hearing them you could always add a couple of inexpensive Dayton SUB 1200's, they make great speaker stands putting the mid and tweets at the perfect height. Picture above of my living rm system. The Heresys are being vertically biamped by the Dynacos, I made a couple of changes to the crossover.
I also have a pair in the bedroom running off a small vintage Kenwood integrated amp without any subs and feel like I'm missing nothing, they're a great speaker that's stood the test of time, and then some.
Inarguably THE worst sounding Amps sold to Naive Audio wannabees.. ever.
Small credence given when those are in one's system.
The new caps that went into my Dynacos when refurbished.First, tell that to the late great J Gordon Holt. Second, until you've heard my setup you know not of what you speak padawan.
Here's an excerpt from one of Gordon's reviews:
Listening
We compared the SAE Mark II with four other amplifiers: a Dynaco Stereo 70 and a pair of Marantz Model 9s (two of the best tube-type amps), the top-rated (to date) Dynaco Stereo 120 transistor amp, and one of the costliest and most highly-rated Marantz solid-state units, the Model 15. Listening tests were made using a variety of representative loudspeaker systems.The above came from a review 3 yrs after the ST120'S debut and it was still Stereophile's top rated SS amp, go figure. Not bad for the worst sounding amp ever.
But you keep shouting how bad they are along with the other ill informed, it helps to keep the prices down for those who know better, he says laughing all the way to the bank.
Edits: 04/11/17 04/11/17 04/11/17 04/16/17
Nice rig! I like the finish. This is the first time I have heard a sub recommended for its brilliance as a speaker stand! But what you say makes sense.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.
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