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Hi All,
Cd Player...Resolution Audio Opus 21
Monoblocks..Hyperion HT88
Seeking a pair of small speakers for a small room....12 x 14 x 10. Musical taste jazz vocals and acoustic intrumental. Some pop.
Big full sound with life sized images...smooth top end (not etched!)Detailed but not dry sounding.
Thanks
Follow Ups:
these are clean and wonderful sounding, and come in just under $4000.
Sold by Quest for Sound in PA. Very nice impressive speakers.
A pair of B&W 805D (used of course).
Check out Amherst Audio's site. The owner has experience in a few of the names recommended here (Harbeth, Audio Note) , and might offer you some perspective on various choices. No affiliation, etc, etc.
I like the JMR line, and might be what you are looking for too.
I'd include the Merlin and smaller ATC stand mounts in my search, not exactly the same 'sound' but both superb speakers.
I currently own both the Harbeth Compact 7ES3's and the Devore 3xl's and I would have to say the speakers are quite different. I listen in near field, about 7 feet from the baffle plane and the speakers are about 6.5' apart. Room is about the same size as yours.
I run the Harbeths primarily with a Hegel H200 SS Integrated (200 watts into 8 ohms). This pairing tightens the lower end, offers an incredible soundstage, and is an improvement in detail and microdynamics compared to when I run the Harbeths with my Cary 300SEI. The bass can get a little loose with the Cary / Harbeth pairing probably due to the lower impedance and efficiency of the Harbeths (about 86db). However, the Harbeths and the Cary are a very compelling offering on vocals, especially female and may work well with your amp provided you are not looking at high db levels. I rarely listen above the high 80's at my listening position.
The Devores pair extremely with the Cary. They are a much better impedance match and their 90db + efficiency presents an easy load. The Devores are very detailed and with the wrong amp will send you out of the room after a short listening session. In my opinion, they are not forgiving and will reveal any harshness in your sources. When you get things right, they are an incredible speaker for jazz, blues, acoustic, piano, and rock at reasonable volumes. They will struggle with large scale orchestral / symphony works if you push them too hard. (I've experienced this driving them with both the Hegel and the Cary.)
Good luck with your search, the quest should be a fun one.
badteacher:
Would like to talk to you more about your experience with the 3xl's and Cary. I have a Cary SLI-80 and I'm considering 3xl's. Could you email me? Or we could just chat on this thread if you'd rather.
Thanks
El Monte
My readings show the choice is between DeVore Gibbon and Harbeth 7ES-3 at your price range. The Stirling BBC LS3/6 is more expensive. Splurge some more and go for Joseph Audio Pulsar. Oh, that brings you to the floorstander Vivid territory which would make JM happy.
Good Luck
Bill
:-)
.., you'll want really good stands. Standmounts + stands can cost you at least several hundred dollars (and several more cubic feet of valuable space) more per pair than comparable "bookshelf" speakers.The bookshelf speakers with decent bass output I'm aware of are not the most efficient, easy-to-drive things around. But, in a small room, wouldn't it be awfully advantageous to have a pair of speakers designed specifically for near-boundary reinforcement? Ones that might not require stands, but only a bit of shelf space?
I liked the little Guru "bookshelf" speakers when I heard them a few years back and I think that they might have the sonic attributes that you are looking for. But, I'm not sure if your amp would like...
Edits: 03/27/14 03/27/14 03/28/14
I'm astonished that no one has recommended the LS50. It's a very musical and detailed speaker.
The 18W amp should be fine. I've heard the LS50 driven with EL34 to high volumes.
You will be well under $4k.
--Ze'ev
But for $4k can't he get a better speaker than the 1.5k KEF? Or are you suggesting that the KEF is as good as any higher priced speaker upto 4k?
Cheers
Bill
Not having heard all monitors up to $4k I can't be sure, but I would start with these as a baseline for excellence.
--Ze'ev
nt
Isn't the eventual footprint much the same?
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
Audio Note K/Spe $3700.
My favorite standmount speaker in the early 2000s was the Reference 3a MM De Capo and was the speaker I was planning to buy until I auditioned the K/Spe. I hated the fact that I liked it better because it was so damn ugly in comparison. Fortunately now they have nicer cabinets but...
Since you mainly listen to jazz and acoustic instruments this is a wonderful acoustic suspension speaker and only needs 5 watts to belt it out. You can position them right up against the wall - giving you much more space in your room. The K is great at telling you what gear you have connected. You can hear them sound warm and thick or transparent and lean depending what gear you put in front of them. I had them on Sugden'a A21a, Arcam Delta 290, and I've tried them with Bryston, Rotel, Odyssey, Musical Fidelity, ARC, Sim Audio, Audio Refinement's "Complete", and Audio Note's own tube amps OTO, Jinro, Meishu, and I-Zero.
Very different presentations from the shrieking toxic bright in your face to the other end of the spectrum where voices have a cupped hands quality and it's like listening to a whole other different speaker. I found this to not be so much the case with the De Capo where the dealer had several amps and it more or less sounded the same or I should say "less different" with the different gear.
The K being acoustic suspension doesn't have particularly deep bass (a bit better than the Reference 3a MM De Capo) however (solid 40hz in room or around that), better near the wall or corner(40hz) . The AN J - which I own - will get you under 30hz.
Lastly - don't discount floorstanders - standmounts often take up the same footprint as a floorstand which are often floorstanders with the stand attached if you get my meaning.
I will also dissent from the other views - if your tube amplifier has a robust power supply - ATC and Harbeth will not be a problem. The ATC classic dealer in Hong Kong has the SCM 100s connected up to my 24watt SET amplifier - and my amp has absolutely no trouble driving the speaker to level with deep controlled bass. Still the De Capo is easier to drive - the K/Spe is even easier than the De Capo. The J/LX is real good though if you can go a bit of the $4k.
Hi RGA and Everyone,
Thank you so much for taking the time to recommend...really appreciate it guys. I am sticking with standmounts this time around because I do not wish to overpower/overload the room. By "big sound" I actually mean "image size". I don't mean overblown. Just large enough to fool me that it could be close to the real thing?
My room is a little smaller than yours and I have floor speakers that work great in the room....a little time with placement and tuning goes a long way. My room is 11x14x9. Also in many cases larger speakers are a little more efficient than stand mounted speakers.
Lance
I did not factor the amp in my previous recommendation.
Something from dc10audio. Ask them about any B stocks they may have to get it in your price range. Incredible speakers.
you're at, but if you can wait a few months till May the Ryan Speakers will show off their revised speaker line. I heard prototypes and they are awesome monitors. They are supposedly showing at THE SHOW in Newport. About $1800 per pair with a custom long throw woofer they go down to 34 Hz ! As far I as heard they are superb and are giant killers.
YMMV of course, so audition first. No website but they also OEM the Motus line of drivers
some of the worlds best drivers put together by a great designer, and at a fraction of what others charge for this level of quality.
Great to see those superb drivers (Raal tweeter, Accuton) but they may not work that well with 18 watts
84.5db
Regards,
Geoff
Save $3,800 and try a pre-owned pair of Epos M5, M5i or perhaps slightly larger M12.2 I like the original M5. Your room size is perfect. If you wish to spend more, treat the room acoustics.
Having a 12x12x10 room with same musical taste three come to mind. Contrast Audio AS3 ( the new lens is better I have been told ),Diapason and PenAudio Cenya(needs power).
I have used the Contrast AS3 with my Audio Space 3i el34 integrated. Very smooth and amazing top end detail.Great at low level listening. I am currently trying the Diapason Micra 3. Very musical, smooth but not quite as extended as the AS3. They both have more a direct drive approach with minimal crossover. I have a pair of the PenAudio Rebel 3's coming in to try. At your budget the Cenya's get rave reviews.
Also the Devore monitor is in my bucket list but a bit pricy for me.
Hope this helps,
Art
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/html_files/Speakers.php?Range=Tablette&Speaker=TabletteAnniversary
The latest Merlin TSMs are a solid contender. I own the larger floor-standing model (VSM) but have owned previous versions of the TSMs. They are fantastic sounding speakers.
I can vouch for the latest Merlin TSM MMM Black Magic. I've had them for a couple of months now. They were special right out of the box, and sound noticeably more full and relaxed, particularly in the bass, after break-in. Put some quality, uncolored components upstream of these and you will be amazed at what they can do. Imaging, layering, speed, detail, balance, and convincing, realistic timbre. Seamless integration between the woofer and tweeter, particularly with the new crossover that is Black Magic. The highest praise I can bestow: what comes out of them sounds more like actual music than "good sound."
BTW I've also owned the VSM's since 2007, and have kept up with the upgrades. The new TSM's do not disappoint even my jaded ear - they are truly remarkable.
If you get confused, listen to the music play (Garcia/Hunter)
Hi August West,
I heard that the Merlins only do well with top quality upstream equipment. Is that true? My Hyperion monos are only 18w per channel and my cd player is a Resolution Audio Opus 21. Both around 8 years old. Your thoughts?
No, I wouldn't agree with that. It's true that you need to stay away from overly harsh sounding equipment because the results can be irritating. But I sometimes use a 40 Watt solid state NAD receiver (7240PE, receiver version of 3240PE integrated c. 1988, about $100 to $200 on eBay) when my fancy 120 Watt tube monoblocks are being upgraded or repaired, and every time I plug it in I'm tickled with how nice the system sounds. If anything Bobby has tried to get me to hold back from buying upstream components costing thousands of dollars each. But when I do, I can always hear the difference.Moderately powered tube amps that would sound very good to excellent with the Merlins include the Music Reference RM10 MkII (~25 wpc Class A, about $2400), which I own, and the Atma-Sphere S-30, a 30 Watt OTL that is more expensive than the Music Reference.
It's also important to find speaker cables that bring out the best in the Merlins. You need something that's well balanced, of course, with particular attention to not losing the bass as some of the more so-called "tranparent" or "resolving" cables may tend to do.
Toughest thing for me was a preamp. I tried Joule Electra and found it too "romantic" or colored. After trying a few others, I ended up with a homemade preamp designed by a friend of mine.
Hope this isn't too late to be helpful!
If you get confused, listen to the music play (Garcia/Hunter)
Edits: 01/07/15 01/07/15
With all due respect, and as much as I love the Harbeth P3ESR, I don't think it can satisfy a demand for a "big full sound" in view of its 4-inch woofer and circa 7-liter enclosure and therefore limited bass extension.
The newly revised ATC SCM19 has a bass/mid driver with more than twice the frontal area of the P3ESR, and an enclosure almost 300% larger. Very nice, room-filling bass (but not deep bass from the bottom octave).
Each speaker weighs about 35 pounds.
JM
I saw the amp name suggesting tubes, but I did not know until I read a later post that the OP's amp was 18 watts.
OK, forget the big ATC sealed box.
While the Reference 3A Da Capo is certainly what I'd call a "high-information" speaker that will work well with a small tube amp, in my limited experience it is not that big and rich; it strikes me as "details first."
So, I am stuck at the moment.
JM
I beg to differ! The Harbeths in my smallish listening room like OP's puts out a bigger sound than larger floor standing speakers I have owned. For the type of music he listens to ,IMHO nothing would better the Harbeth's. I did state that if he wanted a little more boom he can add a sub. These little guys amaze me every time I play them. But in the end it's all a matter of taste!
And, sorry, the bass is not quite fully adequate. JA and I have been very forthcoming in our praise, it is not as though I have a negative position to defend.
Please let's look at this dispassionately. You have bought a speaker and you love it. I am happy for you, genuinely. You have gotten off the merry-go-round, and I always say that is the best thing that can happen.
However, unless you attend audio shows and pro audio trade fairs and visit dealerships and have new products delivered to your home every few weeks, which are all things that people who are paid to write about audio usually do, when you say that the P3 is the "best" ("nothing would be better) for the OP, I have to question how many speakers under $4000 you have listened to critically?
Sonus Faber makes a floorstander below $4000 that I have heard and they might have a stand-mount with the same drivers, but, when the OP asked for smooth, big, and rich, BUT ALSO DETAILED, I landed on the new ATC (I doubt you have heard it as the pair I have are S/Ns 5 and 6), because the Harbeth Compact 7 is a bit veiled in comparison, while the P3 is not as veiled but lacks a bit of bass. Aerial's wonderful 5B with their dedicated stands come in under $4000 but are a little analytical. Vivid's standmount is pricey, a bit analytical if the OP wants rich, and a bit bass-shy.
I am glad that you are happy with the P3s but your happiness does not even bend the laws of physics. The bigger driver in the bigger enclosure will (all other things being equal, and the ATC SCM19 is also a sealed box as is the P3) have more bass.
JM
....thank you for the work you do and the time you take to help people here. I have learned much over the years by reading your posts.
Thanks, but in this case I goofed.
I assumed the amp was mid-powered, but it's only 18 wpc and that won't drive the big sealed-box ATCs. And their ported speakers cost a lot more.
Indeed, given that the Harbeth P3ESRs are also sealed (but with a much lighter woofer), the 18 watts might be marginal, but they could work wonderfully. No substitute for trial and error, I am afraid.
JM
ATC will do what they can to build what you want. ATC uses ports to load the driver to reduce distortion rather than improve bass extension. I mention this because I've seen you comment on ATC and ports a bunch of times
Imagine how boring the internet would be if folks were as civil here as they are in person.
Any chance you'll get to hear the new Shahinian Larc?
Harbeth P3esr would fit the bill. And if you feel you need a sub,the SVS SB- 1000 is a perfect match. As far as stands Skylan makes nice ones for Harbeth.
N/
T
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
I use a pair of these with a 35W EL34 integrated, and I am often really amazed at how musical it all is. With their sensitivity, I have my volume control lower than is optimal, and I think 18W would be a better match, actually. Their impedance load is also very friendly for SET.
+1. Good choice... especially considering his amps only put out 18 watts. (I think)
Hihi,
Thanks everyone for your input. Yes, my amps only put out 18 watts. I guess the standmounts should sound big...ie...large image, smooth and unetched and sorta detailed. Is there such an animal in a standmount in my price range? Anyway, wanna avoid thin sounded speakers that makes a guitar sound like a ukelele, sax sound like clarinet and a person singing look as though he/she is 3 feet tall. I guess should be easy to drive since I will probably not be changing amplification or even my source.
How about evolution acoustic micro one...devore 3xl...harbeth p3esr...reference 3a de capo...merlin tsm or any of the speakers mentioned so far in this thread. With my current source and amplification...which of the speakers mentioned above would work well?
pc123v:
As much as I'd love to sell you the Evolution Acoustics MicroOnes I have for sale on this board, I don't think 18W is enough to adequately drive them. They were fine with a 95W/channel solid state amp, but I'm now using a Line Magnetic 211ia, which is an EL34-based amp, putting out 32W/channel in ultralinear mode, and it was not a happy match with the Evos. It was like the bass had disappeared into an amorphous mess. I also have Merlin TSM-MMMs, which are a much better match for the 211.
-Mike
Well, without hauling all the candidates into your listening room, we can only speculate.....but on paper, I still vote for the DeCapo. 92 db efficient, a simple x-over and a fairly large 7"or 8" mid/woofer. When I've heard 3A's in the past, they've always cheated to the warm side. That 7 or 8 inch mid/woofer should help the "big" factor in your equation as well.
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