|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
119.236.190.112
Let the warm-up begin. And none of that dreaded SS receiver BS they're always connected to. No - feeding them right on a 120lb dual mono 24 watts of 310A/300B/845 SET no feedback beasty.
Follow Ups:
I forget which model you had but I owned some kit3 silver E models and wonder where these stand.
thanks
Phil
I am more able top give you a better reply as today I fired up my mostly AN system now that I am back in Canada using some gold reference High Endition discs and some others. I always underestimate that little 10 watt OTO. First the bass is significantly - SIGNIFICANTLY deeper - at least 25hz deeper you feel it. The warmth and body. The J's energize the room (pressurizes the room as Fred Crowder puts it).
It's tuneful moreso than the punchy more narrow bass the KEF puts out. The J/Spe is more cohesive in the midrange - you have to take your eyes out of the equation - the Coaxial and Tannoy Dual concentrics look like they would be more coherent given he tweeter is inside the woofer and the AN tweeter is very far away physically from the woofer. However at the listening position is where it counts and the sound is as seamless as two way speakers get IME and here again it is spot on.
Jack Roberts is correct when in his latest Voxativ speaker review he says the AN speakers are the most cohesive sounding two ways he's heard - it sounds as close as a full range single driver as you are going to get (not quite as nothing beats a single driver - but it's still as close as I have found that you can get). The slight trade-off in cohesion however gets you more dynamic scale, bass, treble extension, and the ability to energize the room. For me it's a good trade for others it's not and they'll stick to a single driver (ESL).
I suspect it's due to the drivers being very similarly voiced (something that AN and Snell preached to the hilt when no one else preached it) so you don't hear the signature change from say a Kevlar or plastic or paper woofer to a metal tweeter. Or the feeling that the speaker dynamically implodes when presented difficult material.
The treble is more extended and refined sounding in the AN J and the whole thing sounds much more powerful, bigger and more dynamic. Sound fills the room and allows you to sit in more locations without losing the staging (albeit at the expense of having pinpoint imaging).
The KEF I stress for the cash is superb. Which is why I am keeping it. It's probably the best under $2k speaker I've heard and it does beat some more expensive speakers. The value for the money is very, very high. For speakers in this class I can see why it got class A and product of the year. Still the J/Spe is so damn musical and emotional button pushing that it's hard to qualify. The J/Spe can make my toe tap and engage me emotionally - the KEF can get the toe to tap but it ends there. It's more of an intellectually stimulating product where I don't "feel" it ultimately.
A good example track in my comparisons is with David Munyon's "Hollywood Town" from High Endition Volume 15 http://www.highendsociety.de/index.php/en_cds_shop_hee_015.html. The J is able to give a more heart pulling rendition of this.
And like I said after hearing the AN E in HK in a similar sized room to my HK apartment the AN E will be on my radar. It's my front runner. The ALnico tweeter and woofer elevate the game dramatically. And the upgrade price isn't stupid. I still want to try some single driver speakers and Line Magnetic standmounts using the 755. Although I want a little more full range if nothing else for the dynamic ease.
I currently own the Audio Note J/Spe and the AX-TWO standmount speakers.
The KEF is good competition for the latter. When broken in I will have more to say.
So far my plan is to buy an AN E with alnico tweeters and woofers. The KEF as terrific as it is Hasn't changed that desire.
Its now broken in, RGA! Please start listening.
Cheers
Bill
So I've been feeding them a steady diet of audiophile approved labels. they're broken in as far as they should be pretty happy at loud levels.
So today I put in "Knockin on Heaven's Door" by Guns and Roses which is a better recording than your average bear and it gave the meters a workout - I cranked it up and pushed the meter to to the end of the red zone to the 50 watt peaks range of the meter - LOUD.
The speakers remained impeccable - good bass - very clean crisp open sound - got the toe tapping. The amp in spite of being pushed to where it should distort didn't really exhibit audible distortion - I was expecting the bass to tank - but it didn't.
I am also pleased with ME (LOL) that I didn't let forum vitriol keep me from giving them a fair shake. I'm keeping them - for the room size they're geared for they're going to be tough to better especially if you play a wide array of music as I do. You can put on some Santana crank it up and get surprising sound - what I like is that at higher levels the bass doesn't fold up and compress. The bass is of the midbass variety but it doesn't boom and sounds quite satisfying - at higher levels.
This has to be around 50hz - in room it certainly feels like a very solid powerful 50hz - I read 79hz and I've heard 79hz which usually turned out to be feeble lightweights. I put in Lady Gaga's Bad Romance and it has very good midbass thump AT level without interfering with the vical band (that most other standmounts in this price all seem to do). Dynaudio Standmounts for instance get the bass but it smudges the midband and you get this boom one note blah effect - not here - it is a big cut above such standmounts IMO. The B&W N805 at $3,000 umm no.
I think the key thing is to listen in the nearfield - that's a must - it's less of a must with the AX Two which is also designed as a nearfield monitor. Another key is to put a big ole tube amp on it (or something good with composure.
I fly home tomorrow and won't be listening to the KEF's for the next ten days - but I will be home for my OTO/AN-J/Spe system.
Thank God, a voice of reason (and I can't believe I am saying that about YOU!)
Yes, you hit it right on the head.
-small room a must
-near field essential
Lastly..NEVER use the phrase "toe tapping" when discussing high end audio!
That is the worst reviewer cliche ever, after "jaw dropping"!
You're killing me. My favorite two cliches!
JA measured the response in his room at+-3 dB from 50 to 15,000 Hz. My Audio Research D70 amp drives the LS 50s to 95dB with no compression. IMO, you do not need a sub unless you play at levels that will destroy your hearing.
"Guns and Roses"? Well, you would have to pay me to listen to them, but I suppose they would give a speaker a workout. IMO, the LS 50s are a great reviewing tool. It's easy to hear the superiority of tubes vs ss amps through the KEFs. At the 2012 CAS, the KEFs were being driven by a 12 watt SET Unison Research amp, and the sound was glorious. In my office system, driven by a ss iDecco amp, the sound is merely OK. In my downstairs system, driven by a 60 watt tube amp, and sourced from a VPI Classic (with Rosewood option), a Lyra Delos cartridge, a Bob CineMag 1131 tranny, and a Mystere CA 21 preamp, the sound is shockingly good.
That piece by Guns 'n Roses is a great favorite of mine. I consider it a masterpiece and I feel terribly jealous RGA is listening to it loud thru the KEF.
Cheers
Bill
Old School:
The LS50s's are amazing speakers for the money. I have EXTENSIVE experience with them but don't own them. A close friend but TWO pairs.
Anyway, as good as they are, and they ARE good...they are not perfect, and you need to take off the rose colored glasses.
My friend and I both agree in the end the metallic character of the coaxial drive can be heard very subliminally and that is just a fact of all metal drivers, with very few exceptions.
They also simply cannot match other, more expensive speakers for rendering hall ambiance and spatial cues. I am being overly harsh, yes,
but these speakers are getting over the top love, so I think it is fair to
keep it real.
Again, don't feel the need to defend..I am on board.
I get what you are saying about the tweeter and treble - it's not perfect - I prefer the upper mid treble of other speakers but I will say - at least in my system, that it's not bright - it just lacks the things you just said it lacks - that ultimate refinement. They also don;t make lesser recordings sound utterly unlistenable so there is a bit of a soft touch here as well which is a good thing since most recordings are not all that great.
Old School - Knocking on Heaven's Door is a Dylan tune - may not annoy you as much as other Guns and Roses tunes - Ballad Then you can rock your house down with the KEF's - it's kind of deceptive - I wasn't expecting to see the meters get pushed so hard on a ballad.
Actually, I never said the treble was bright...just that it had a metallic aftertaste...very subte..It does lack the refinement of other far more expensive monitors. No shame in that.
It seems audiophiles love keeping alive the myth of the giant killer alive.
I keep having to say this...I dig the Fiddys...but they have been put on a pedestal that no $1500 speaker can live up to.
BTW. I revisited Chinese Democracy today. Very powerful album. Sadly not given its due.
Edits: 12/20/13 12/20/13 12/20/13 12/20/13 12/20/13
I have never called any audio component perfect, and that includes the 'amazing" KEF LS50s. What the LS 50s are is better than all but one speaker I heard at the 2012 CAS, and that included Magicos, MBLs, and Audio Notes. My friend who owns a double set of Quad 57s, admits that the KEFs are better on rock and pop, and close on jazz and classical. His double set of 57s is one of a handful of speakers that I could live with, compared to my classic Fulton Js.
The LS 50s don't need a small room, but they DO need a moderate one (mine is 14 by 23). The 50s, driven by a modest tube amp easily energize the room.
Dozens of my friends have heard my 50s, and none complained that the tweeter was bright, harsh, or metallic. None of the reviewers of the LS 50s complained of the tweeter as being bright. JA called the tweeter somewhat laid-back.
I listen to the KEFs in both near-field and far-field, and they sound great at both distances.
Ambiance and spatial facets exceed my Fulton Js, and come extremely close to my pair of Dunlavy SCIVs, but then, no speaker I have heard, matches the Dunlavys in imaging.
Unless you listen to the LS 50s on a comparable high set of components (IMO, that means tubes and analogue), you are not hearing all that these "amazing" speakers can do.
Oh, boy..where to begin..
First, I think it is absolute bunk that a speaker "does" rock or jazz or classical or not. It is a transducer. It simply reproduces electrical signals. Speakers "do" music.
I will give you that a medium room is ok. Nothing larger.
I NEVER said the 50's were bright or harsh. I simply said that it was easy to identify the driver material. That is a fact. It DOES have a sound. ALL driver material does, it is just to what degree it is audible.
You also need to be aware about coming off as a stuffy, snobby audiophile by saying one HAS to use tubes and vinyl.
I heard the 50's with support equipment costing TWENTY TIMES! the cost of the speakers, so I assure I know what their limits are.
Continuously comparing these speakers to ancient designs also does not bode well for your conclusions. I'm no Magic, MBL etc buff btw.
I compared the KEF LS 50s to all the other speakers at the 2012 CAS, and only a handful were
ancient types. Certainly Magico and MBL are NOT ancient type of speakers.
Your claim that you could identify the 50s tweeter as being metallic, despite the fact that it does not sound bright or etched, leaves me wanting, once again, for a blind listening test. You already knew that the tweeter was metallic when you were listening. Most metallic tweeters I have heard DO sound bright and etched. I doubt that you could identify the KEF's tweeter as being metallic in a blind test. BTW, you do not explain in what way the tweeter sounded metallic.
There are a handful of ss amps that sound natural. Think simple type A ones. Most of these are extremely expensive. The KEFs will sound dramatically more real via a great number of tube amps than through the vast majority of ss amps.
A great many speakers are better suited to jazz and classical than to pop, trance, or house. RGA has accurately posted extensively on this.
Now you have confirmed it..
You are one of those relics (killing the hobby) by trying to convince everyone your opinion are facts....
...going on about how solid state sucks, ..walking the halls of audio shows with your crusty old LPs under your arm, wagging your finger at expensive gear that does not sound "as good" as Quad 57s etc.
Using Magico and MBL as examples is disingenuous as those two brands are rather controversial, and offer design principles that many consider against the grain. Magico itself is a terrible example as it a very polarizing brand.
No speaker has any idea what it is playing aside from receiving an electrical signal. Any speaker that cannot play ANY time of widely accepted music is a fraud. Early Quads only get a pass because they physically cannot reproduce the dynamics required for certain types of music, but they are enchanting in every other way... but modern ESL's like Sanders and Martin Logan have eliminated this issue.
I think he goes over the top because of the price and I can;t blame him really - they do beat more expensive speakers. And I can't blame him for the results of an audio show - the KEF LS-50 sound I get in my home is a lot better than what I heard from the AN E at CAS or Magico at CAS.
I think the mistake he's made is the fact that room and set-up can suck and it's not always the fault of the room. The Blade for instance was in a far worse room than most of us would have and the old school needs to try and put that into some perspective. The Blade did a miraculous job considering and it was my favorite speaker on the series of rooms. All of them were pretty weak results but considering the foldable walls that high school gyms use to partition a big room into smaller ones - you have to take that into account. Smaller speakers with less bass in a nearfield set-up are going to have a big advantage.
I also get what you're saying about the metalic aftertaste - but it's less evident than most which is pretty excellent for $1500.
Furthermore...comparing big room speakers like Magicos and MBL crammed into a shitty hotel room and proclaiming the 50 "better" is nonsense...and O S knows it. The buyer of those speakers is going have them Ina room 3x the average room at CES. Just like the average buyer of the KEF will have them in a room like yours.
The Ls50 is indeed better than SOME more expensive speakers, but not all.The ridiculous positioning of this speaker as somehow better than a Harbeth Monitor 30.1 or a Joseph Audio Pulsar, or equivalent models from Sonus Faber, or Proac is ABSURD. Those speakers are in a different class.....period....not even close...but it does not take away from what the 50s offer at $1500.
Edits: 12/22/13 12/22/13
The OS hates Harbeth so I'm pretty sure he likes the LS-50 better than the M40 and all the models below it that Harbeth has ever made.This is what it is and it's a slippery slope when you say say it's better than SOME expensive speakers and then make a list of speakers that it is ABSURD for him to feel sound worse.
For instance take Vandersteen - Vandersteen has a sound and you either like it or you don't. You can spend $2k or $50k and you're oing to get the Vandersteen house sound. If you don't like the sound at $2k you will find the sound utterly egregiously insane at $50k. If you love Vandy then the $50k is the penultimate envisioning of that sound. Pretty much can apply that to Sonus Faber, ProAc, Harbeth, and KEF. All of these companies do not sound the same in their price points - they have a "take" on the presentation. Some people will buy a Quad 57 or 63 and swear that no box is their equal - me - they leave me completely underwhelmed - but I get their appeal. I even get the overthetop love their fans give them. They, nevertheless, are underwhelming to my ear. As those people probably are likely underwhelmed with what I like. So be it. One man's treasure...
If the OS believes the KEF to be the best things around then that in itself doesn't bother me. He's fortunate that he found the diamond at $1500 - plenty of others spend $40,000 and are always whining they're not happy. If the $1500 KEF gets him off the train then he's quite fortunate. But it won't be for all of us.
Yes the factual statement stance of there being nothing else remotely as good (based on audio shows) is silly, but hey I guess I was guilty of that for a long time as well so I am sympathetic to the enthusiasm. And the speakers are "real good" so I can cut him slack on that.
Could be worse he could be raving about Audio Note right ;-)
Edits: 12/23/13
If the most expensive Vandersteen speaker represents the penultimate envisioning of that Vandersteen house sound, what then would represent the ultimate envisioning of that sound? ;)
"You are one of those relics (killing the hobby) by trying to convince everyone your opinion are facts...."
-Why can't you constructively disagree instead of resorting to name-calling and personal attacks?
"...going on about how solid state sucks,..."
-That's not what he said. What he said was: "There are a handful of ss amps that sound natural. Think simple type A ones. Most of these are extremely expensive. The KEFs will sound dramatically more real via a great number of tube amps than through the vast majority of ss amps."
Many share this view as well as preferring vinyl to other sources. RGA posted re: the LS-50: "... Another key is to put a big ole tube amp on it (or something good with composure."
I am sure name calling, "thick skinned", "My opinion is a fact" friend Old School can take it.
He sure can dish it out, insulting and belittling Art Dudley's Shundo and AN system, which he has never heard.
"Art makes fun of those costly components at audio shows (average of $20,000), but his own system is composed of overpriced and manifestly inaccurate components including the $14,000 Shindo Masseto preamp, various Shindo amps costing upwards of $10,000, and the simple two way Audio Note E speaker. Here is what JA said about Art's system (with either the Wilson Sophia or Art's AN Es): "The lumpier low frequencies, the excess of midrange energy, and the prematurely rolled-off top octaves are all what I would have expected from my own audition of the two systems in his room". Check out JA's measurements of Art's system. Hint: it's nothing close to neutral or accurate. Here is what Victor Serinus said about the Audio Note room at the recent 2012 CAS: "More warm and sweet sound flowed in the Audio Note UK room. Neutrality took a hike on Jane Monhert's "No Detour" and a 45 rpm LP of the Kronus Quart's music, but not everyone craves neutrality." I suspect that "warm and tonally sweet' are the two chief triggers to Art. Yes, the Shindo gear, and AN E speakers make digital listenable, but, a system that is so unbalanced is certainly NOT high end to anyone who aims for either truth to sources or to TAS (live, acoustic music). Yes, I'm sure Art just loves his system, as we all love our own systems, but, please save us the outrage over overpriced, inferior equipment!"
'Nuff said.
My criticism of AD's criticism of the high cost of most units at audio shows is certainly DEADON. Art is the one who can dish it out, but cannot take it! For those of us who have a mortgage, wife, and children, Art's system is WAY out of our price range, and seems crazily expensive. I HAVE heard Art's former favorite speaker, the Audio Note E, driven by expensive Audio Note tubes, and was NOT impressed (yes, as Serinus was not impressed). Art has since moved on to a $12,000 bass reflex design. Remember the column where Art blasted the phony bass inherent in reflex speakers? I usually prefer sealed designs, but many reflex speakers have bass that sounds realistic if properly driven and setup. The KEF LS 50 is one such speaker IMO. Does the LS 50's bass match my Fulton J's bass? No. Does the LS 50's treble match that of the Fulton's electrostatic treble? No. But the midrange of the LS 50 beats both my Fulton J and my Dunlavy SC IV by enough to offset the "weakness" at the high and low end. Perhaps I should change the midrange speaker, the Fulton 80, in the Fulton Modular with the KEF LS 50. It looks quite easy.
Look, I think you are an alright guy, but, you kinda push it when you try to convince everyone your world view is the only correct one.
And you use RGA as a reference concerning the LS50, but he also ADORES Art's AN speaker....so which is it? Is he a tin eared fool or a credible
listener?
Plus I have a mortgage and a family and own a system commensurate with Art's. As a matter of fact, several systems. These are real world systems. Not everyone's budget is $1500 for a pair of monitors. We all have different lots in life.
I think you lost a lot with your review of the Shindo turntable that you were later forced to admit you'd never even heard
thanks for a speedy reply
Phil
Do you have a picture of how the KEFs are set up within your room?
I just moved into my new apartment 2 weeks ago so it will be some time to get it ready (wires everywhere - the TV will eventually be attached to the wall or moved into my bedroom - unfortunately many of my foam panels were wrecked so I will have to buy some more to complete the walls. But it's a start. I have the speakers facing straight ahead as it was bright leaning with toe in. They are the recommended distance per the manual from all walls.
Edits: 12/17/13 12/17/13 12/17/13
As there have been some questions on the ridiculous 204kg monoblock tube amps - here is some detailed info - I can only post one picture per post so I will reply to myself
Select a pic. Do a 'preview' then click in the text, then select another pic.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
Thanks - I will try it but For Line Magnetic stuff I will put in the SET forum.
Just like the title says - Get your Electronics degree out.
As noted Part 2
Side view
Finally the last bit - you're overthetop crazy Tube amplifier - you can now create your own Frankenstein (or Fronkenstein depending on your bent) monster.
Edits: 12/16/13
85db and as low as 3.2ohm when pushed, I'd think they would take at least some muscle to open up. I suppose hearing is believing...
Designed for Small room - typical listening is 60-75dB - dynamic peaks from a baseline of 60dB would be 90dB typical and only on good recordings with a 30dB dynamic envelope.
85dB = 1 watt
88dB = 2watts
91dB = 4 watts (very loud)
94dB = 8 watts (hearing damage levels)
97dB = 16 watts
101dB = 32 watts
104dB = 64 watts
106dB = maximum SPL Rating of the loudspeaker (100 watts is the maximum power handling of the loudspeaker
107dB - 128 watts.
I give up about 6dB at only the absolute maximum volume levels the speaker is capable of to bigger power amps (and not into peaks because most good SET amps are capable of 50% or more of their rated power into peaks as well as merely soft distorting when they are pushed beyond rating.
In a big room I'd want a different amp for the KEF - but then in a big room I'd want a different loudspeaker.
I bought the amp on auditions with ZU Audio (dead easy to drive 100dB+) and the ATC 100 big 3 way 88dB (recommended minimum power 100 watts per channel - 1500watts). The amp had zero trouble driving them with big dynamic drum music from Taiko. The dealer uses the speakers I suspect to illustrate the point that power supplies are more important than watt figures - and also because not everyone likes the in the lap sound of Zu Audio.
The KEF's are a breeze with a good power supply. My previous issues with them seem to be a combination of poor room, bad music playing, and feeble amplifiers. The last two times dealers were running sub $400 receivers which may not have even been 4 ohm capable let alone 3.
I am thus far quite pleased by them. I still have some positioning to work on and want to try the port plugs just see but I like them - I've A/b'd them against the AX Two already and there are some interesting things each bring to the table.
I am both surprised that I like the KEF as much as I do and I am also in a way surprised that the older school 2000 AX Two is as good as it is against a "cutting edge" Juggernaut of a speaker maker with white paper technoblabbery out the wazoo.
I think the KEF will stay based on the first 14 hours of use. They sounded good right out of the box to be honest. (Better than all previous times I heard them).
I think the bass is more than enough for most music in a small room. If you listen to pedal organ then you'll need a couple of subs but then you'd need a couple of subs for the B&W D800 if you like Pedal Organ.
Now you should find a good used pair of Reference 3as (preferrably something like a Royal Virtuoso) to strap to that beautiful amp you own. You will see how good the Ref 3as really are then...
Just curious, what is the retail on that amp and what can you really get it for? It's almost as heavy as my NAT Symbiosis SE (135 lbs).
I believe this is 80kg - forget sound let's try and win the weight wars LOL.It's funny because I almost picked up a second hand pair of Reference 3a MM DeCapos here. Terrific second hand equipment store - they sell via consignment. You have to know what you want though because there is no real room to listen except to make sure it works kind of thing. A different building nearby is about 20 floors of audio retailers - one of which has picked up the entire Reference 3a Line.
Nothing there approached what I heard in an audiophile's home here (which had worse acoustics than the dealer) which was (yup the dreaded AN E-freestanding) with alnico tweeters and woofers running a Shindo Petrus preamp into AN Kegon amps and an Orpheus transport/DAC. I brought my recordings to the session. It's a Saturday ritual for the audiophiles in HK as they travel around the city visiting each other's homes for a few hours of listening then head to the record stores - it's actually kind of cool in the sense that the city is so small that you can find like minded people. AudioAsylum is great but it would be better to be able to head over to Jack's house one weekend to listen to the Teresonic's or over to Richard Mak's to hear his stuff - but at 3000kn apart we're stuck discussing the stuff on forums.
You have more disposable cash than me - you should be looking into their bigger Classic series. The weight requires them to have their own wheels - the 219IA should too IMO. I can lift a 120 lb woman no problem but dead weight on this amp I can't - I saw stars - time to go to the gym - eating too many jelly babies.You want the LM 212 monoblock amps. 204Kg EACH! The 219 is $7,500US. There are lower prices in HK but this is true of ALL Audio equipment no matter where it is made. Hong Kong has no duty, tariff, import taxes and ground shipping is practically free - with the low wages they pay drivers to get the stuff to HK versus what they pay drivers in the US/Canada - it all adds. Most business people open accounts here and have money in HKD. The guy to talk to is John Halpern of Tone Imports. It should also be pointed out that while the prices are lower here - stuff comes with a lower warranty - I believe my KEF has a 1 year warranty - it's probably 5 years in the western world. (I could be wrong but that is what the dealer told me - 1 year - but he's been wrong before :).
So the prices in the US versus EU versus Canada will likely all be different Typically, everything Chinese or not in HK is less - but make sure it's the real deal.
Edits: 12/16/13 12/16/13
That amp is COOL!! Maybe I will try to get one...I need something with even MORE iron :).
"You have more disposable cash than me - you should be looking into their bigger Classic series. The weight requires them to have their own wheels - the 219IA should too IMO. I can lift a 120 lb woman no problem but dead weight on this amp I can't - I saw stars - time to go to the gym - eating too many jelly babies.
"
I heard these amps with a pair of WE replica horns (huge things...awesome sound). They are being distributed in Germany by a friend of mine Klaus who makes very nice AcousticPlan gear. They are amazing amps but scary as well.
I realize that you decided on AN over Ref3a a long time ago but I was wondering if you heard Ref3a with really great amps and if not then it was time to try...I have found it works incredibly good.
I always liked Reference 3a and still do so I will check them out here again. Then again I also want to try the LM speakers as well. They;re not big frequency response speakers but the 755 done well holds appeal for a relatively small space. My plan is to have 5-7 different pairs of speakers for review purposes. I'm done with the small standmounts - so it's possible a Reference 3a Floorstander is in the future cards. My Apartment will look like an audio demonstration room but what the hell.The big LM amps scare me off - the weight, complexity will have to be for someone else braver than me.
Still I might consider the preamp part of the equation - the VV3 is a real nice looking and inexpensive preamp ($4,000) which is Inexpensive considering the quality of the thing in relation of parts/trannies/looks/build etc.
The Line Magnetic 25B is also interesting - pictured and is built off the WE amps. The question is how much does it cost? I'll look into it. The speakers are similar to another I've heard here which is truly exceptional - kind of makes Stereophiles class A speaker list sound more like Class D. And I generally don't like horns. I would like to try their smaller single driver standmount speaker (a variation of the Line Magnetic speaker reviewed by Jack Roberts and Art - the standmount will take out the colourations but may give up bass. The dealer here will be stocking it so I should get a chance to hear them at some point.
Edits: 12/18/13
Kara Chaffee of deHavilland audio designed an SET amp based on the 845 tube. I think both JR and DO loved it. BTW, Kara claims that the power supply is, by far, the most important part of an amp.
How much does the LM amp cost? Have you reviewed it?
The review is in Editing. $7,500 US
Info on them is here
If you go to an audio show you will likely see them In Devore's room as he uses them to demonstrate his speakersLine Magnetic for something like 20+ years was restoring Western Electric amps and speakers. Then starting making replicas from the original schematics using the exact materials. Then brought back the 310A WE tube and build their own gear along with making replicas bringing back the speakers which are of course are old fashioned 755 with a new bent (field coil). The amps are the best I've heard out of China - but really it's Western Electric - if you're going to copy that's probably the company to copy - and at least they don't try to lie about it - they keep the same names as the original WE products.
The 219 is a big ole 120lb beast that movers were not thrilled about moving - but better them than me!
It had no trouble with ATC and that speaker is far harder to drive than these KEFs - I think people will get scared off the KEF for being 85dB and that would be a shame. The LS-3/5a was only 82dB and it was very SET friendly (albeit 11 and 16 ohm versions). If the amp has a good power supply 3.2 ohms isn't difficult so long as the amp has a 4 ohm tap.
Devore 88s are not exactly easy to drive either and it doesn't stop Devore.
Edits: 12/14/13
I have the Line Magnetic 211IA and it's very good in stock form.Upgrading the tubes makes for considerable improvement.
Niiiicccce.I can't wait until you get some of the uninformed post claiming the fiddy's don't work with tubage. Break in 100 hours plus....
Edits: 12/14/13
Frankly every speaker I've ever heard sounds better with good tube amps. Some good SS amps too of course. It's the power supply that counts and the LM 219IA has beastly transformers - I bought the amp after hearing them with ATC 100s which are far harder to drive than these KEF's.Best sound I have heard from B&W was with an 11 watt SET and Magnepan has only sounded good to me with SE tubes. Sugden, Analog Domain, Technical Brain(when they work) and Pass Labs have been the better SS amps I've heard.
Edits: 12/13/13
Have you ever had a chance to hear KR Audio amplifiers? After having owned them for years and selling them to make my world more baby friendly, I heard them again recently....drool...the KR non-"sound" is amazing.
Is the Line magnetic a "warm" sounding amplifier or does it play pretty neutral?
My OTO is a warm leaning sounding amp - this isn't that. To me tube amps bring different pros and cons to the table. I've heard KR and like any tube - the tube itself has a strength weakness. The OTO does things the Meishu and SORO (more expensive amps) don't do. EL84 magic but at the same time it's not the most transparent thing around.
Why does it have to be either or - why not have several amps in play and when the mood calls for a warmer touch have the warmer amp - when you want the rocker amp listen to that.
The OTO ain't going anyplace. As the dealer here noted - as great as the Jinro is he still has a KIT One 300B (balls to the wall upgraded) because for some things nothing beats the 300b at doing what it does best. On the flip side 300B ain't going to do what 845/211 is going to do.
On the dagogo forum I did a 219IA VS Melody AN211 amp shootout and I find the latter a little leaner and perhaps more modern sounding.
But as you know - stock tubes tend to limit what I can say about the 219IA and what speakers you have connected. With the ATC it sounded like a pro studio monitor with tight deep fast bass - the bass was impeccable. The ATC's are said to sometimes be a bit bright (a complaint leveled at most studio monitors when put in the home). I got extension in spades.
It is what it is. I think it's a pretty straight shooter. It's not veiled. It's not Shindo, It's not AN sounding - it's probably Western Electric sounding (which is way before my time) given the priorities of the brothers who run the company. If this is actually the case - then it was a sad day that Western Electric ended.
I want to say the sound is older school but I get the feeling saying that will imply noisy or veiled like a ST70 or something. There is zero noise - zero hum.
The kind of cool thing is to run this 1930s inspired amp on cutting edge 2013 KEF Blade drivers in the flexing box yada yada. Something like 80 year old technology mixed with the new.
I love audio.
.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
2 hours in and they show some promise. The BIG Line Magnetic SET has no trouble with them - Running on the 4 ohm tap playing pretty loud and the meters have yet to hit 3 watts. The Amp is so killer good. Kinda wish the SS guys who complain about mushy bass or rolled of treble could have heard the LM 219IA first. That would have ended the myth - unfortunately they probably heard Cary.
The KEF's may just be keepers after all. I love their looks and from the build quality perspective you do feel you're getting $1500 worth of speaker.
You should hear the Border Patrol 300B amps! Best design I have heard using this tube.
I'm listening to Zep II through C &C Abbys powered by a Sophia Electric EL 34 amp. No flabby bass, just lost of clear thundering bass drive (oh, did I mention the NSMT sub?) and loud rock n roll. All tube amps are not created equal. I think about the LM as my next amp.
"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"
It's interesting because even with tube amps using the same tube layout (or very similar) you get wildly different presentations. I remember when Soundhounds carried the Jolida 302B and the Antique Sound Labs 1003DT. Both use the same tubes, similar price PP but not remotely the same - guys who want the warm valvey sound would want the Jolida - the ASL was nearly SS in grip and speed and openness. Depends on your speakers and what you like better. If I was going to listen to rock the latter. Female vocals the former.I kinda want to try this preamp from LM - it's from the classic series so I believe it was at one time a Western Electric. It's just a lot of tubes in a preamp???
Edits: 12/14/13
The upright Line Magnetic amps are some of the coolest amps I have ever seen. I am not sure I even want to know the price.
Expensive but not as absurd as you might think - last THREE pictures on Steven Rochlin's Asia tour. I have been invited a few times to a few plants but unfortunately I teach during the periods of time I've been offered to go - but maybe one day it will hook up. The Upright amps are Western Electric replica's. Probably take you an hour just to bias the thing :)Check out their horn loudspeakers.
Edits: 12/15/13
There is seems to a 300B/SET renaissance in china and taiwan these days.
Eagerly waiting to read your review.
Cheers
Bill
They break in a lot, 40 - 100 hours.
What stands do you have them on?
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
The Stands are custom made sand fallible - they make stands for numerous other companies - but I don't recall the name as I bought them a couple years back.
Probably Skylan stands out of Canada.
I live in Hong Kong - these are all metal stands - They OEM for other makers who buy them and stick their own name badge on them and up charge.
FWIW I had Skylan and liked them but they're not here.
Noel will send a pair to Hong Kong. He ships all over the world.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
some infallible stands
in my AE1. But we have so much snow lately that I find that it's much safer to use it as lighthouse to find our house in the middle of 10-foot tall snowdrifts....
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Is the Silverline Audio Minuet anywhere close to the LS50 in sound quallity ?
Edits: 01/08/14
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: