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Just got some Skylan stands for my C7 Harbeths, is there an agreed on answer for how much and what to fill them with?
I did a search, but didn't find a lot.....thanks for any responses.
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The discussion is interesting and the reports valuable. But I wonder why sand and kitty litter and rice each make a different sound. Once the center rod and posts are damped, which all fillings do, what explains why nearly-identical fillings have a different sound?
For that matter, what's the basic theory under all this? Is a stiff stand or looser stand better? Is the goal to allow the speaker to operate independently, or is it to drain away excess vibration? Do spikes isolate speaker from stand (and stand from floor), or are they designed to transfer unwanted energy from one to the other? What precise effect does it have on the speaker if the stand vibrates sympathetically, or doesn't vibrate at all?
This is no criticism of the comments here or the listening experiences reported -- but about the weakness of the theories I've seen advanced online and in print. Even manufacturer's websites say little if anything about this. I'd find the whole concept more convincing if there seemed to be some hard science behind it.
Maric
Why do different fillings sound different?
The stand forms a link between speaker and floor. Some vibration is going to flow through the stand in both directions since there is no perfect way of isolating the speaker from the floor using a stand. Some stands will pass a lot of vibration and some will pass very little but all will pass some.
Density of any fill within the stand is going to influence how much vibration gets passed. Dense materials can actually transmit vibration quite well under the right circumstances: a steel railway line can carry vibration from a moving train for miles, and seismic vibrations travel through the earth from one side of the planet to the other. One factor involved in this is the rigidity of the material and I suspect that rigid materials transmit vibration much better than non-rigid ones simply because a rigid material doesn't dissipate the vibrational energy as easily and well as a non-rigid material. I expect that a hollow steel leg in a stand, filled with fine steel blasting abrasive would be less transmissive than a solid steel leg of the same dimensions. For the same reason I suspect loose sand will be less transmissive than compacted sand—some vibrational energy will be expended in moving loose sand grains and that energy is then no longer available for transmission out the other end of the stand leg.
Another factor is going to be the resonant frequency of the filled leg. Maximum transmission will occur at resonant frequency, dropping off above and below that frequency at some rate unique to the combination of materials in the leg itself and the material/s filling it.
So, with different leg designs you will get variations in vibration transmission that depend on:
—the nature and structure of the leg;
—the density and looseness/compactness of the fill;
—the resonant frequency of the leg structure.
Those variations will affect the frequency spectrum of the sound passing through the stand in both directions. Vibration passed from floor to speaker will influence the vibrational behaviour of the speaker to some degree and vibration passed from speaker to floor will be transmitted eventually to the other components of the system, influencing them to some degree. Just what degree of influence will result will depend on how much or how little vibration is passed, what the frequency spectrum of that vibration is, and how sensitive the receiving component, be it speaker, source or amplification, is to vibration with that particular spectrum.
You asked "Is a stiff stand or looser stand better? Is the goal to allow the speaker to operate independently, or is it to drain away excess vibration? Do spikes isolate speaker from stand (and stand from floor), or are they designed to transfer unwanted energy from one to the other? What precise effect does it have on the speaker if the stand vibrates sympathetically, or doesn't vibrate at all?"
There's 2 parts to the answer to those questions. The first part is that what stand is best is going to depend in part upon the other components in the system and their sensitivity to vibration at different frequencies and amplitudes. What works best in one system may not work best in another system with components whose sensitivity to vibration is quite different. The second part of the answer depends on the individual who owns the system and what their tastes in sound are. Not everybody likes the same result and, given that we're in this hobby for listening pleasure, the best result is the one which makes the system owner happiest.
It would be nice if there were a simple answer to those questions, one which satisfied everyone, but there isn't and that's why there are different responses in this thread to what is the best fill. Each respondent has a different system, affected differently by the vibration passed through their stands, and different tastes in the kind of sound they're seeking which is why they have each chosen different equipment for their systems.
We can certainly end up quantifying the behaviour of different stands and fills, and relating the effects those stands and fills have to the sound the system delivers, at least to some degree, but at the end of the day different people are going to choose different stands and fills, just as they choose different speakers and other components. We're not all chasing the same thing. Your "best" is unlikely to be my "best", or someone else's "best" and that's fine. We really only have to satisfy ourselves with our own systems. Satisfying others is nice but we aren't going to be happy with any result that leaves everyone else liking the sound of our system while we don't like it.
David Aiken
I do have the 4 post stands, just got some Herbies Big Fat Dots to put between the speakers and stands. I don't give a hoot why it all works, it just does. I'm sure other stands work too. Just haven't tried them.
I don't think there's any evidence that sand and rice and kitty litter each make a different sound. I think that idea is just audiophilia nervosa. I don't like sand because it's hard to deal with. I never thought of rice, but I wouldn't put food in a speaker stand. I've been using and recommending unscented kitty litter for 20 years because, it's cheap, readily available (the closest supermarket or large drug store), and not too heavy, but with enough weight to add stability to the stand.
________
"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
Hi PabloP,
all I can say is, fill your stand with sand, then dump em and fill with rice (if you have the wherewithall for that--time, money, patience, a good vaccum), oh, and of course listen in between, and I think you'll find a difference in the sound your speakers present you, or, if you have a bug problem, try your kitty litter after the sand. I tried those and more, and each makes a unique sound. I'm still finding I like poly pellets best, which is sort of like the fancy stands Jeff Day reviewed on Positive Feedback from Acoustic Revive for $10k. They also add touralane (SP) or some such material.
The beauty of the Skylans is you can adjust the sound to your specific speaker and room. The science of it I'm not interested in. Just the end result.
... (just kidding!). But I do have some thoughts on the subject. The stands the loudspeakers sit upon return and/or absorb vibrational energy generated by the loudspeakers. Stands will react differently with different kinds of loudspeakers: absorbing energy at certain frequencies and returning energy at other frequencies, affecting the movement of the drivers (rise times, settling times), complimenting or combating the natural resonant tendencies of the loudspeaker cabinets. As different kinds of stands and/or different kinds of fillings work to create different kinds of interactions between stand and loudspeaker, the audible effects are varying levels of distortion and the manipulation of tonal balance.
It would be nice to have measurements, but all I have is my ears and they are getting old. LOL Honestly, I had great concern that I may be wasting my money when I purchased the Skylans, I had been using heavy duty single post wood stands with the C7's sitting on carbon fiber racing cones. It sounded pretty darn good as was. So I wasn't expecting much, I had used several different cheaper steel and wood stands in the past (with much cheaper speakers) and hadn't noticed much of a difference. If any.
But the difference was not sutle as they say with the Skylans, bass was way too strong, I had to turn it down. The midrange and increased soundstage is certainly only my opinion. I think I have a pretty good ear for this stuff. The designer says that the main difference you can hear in stands is due to the change in height of the speaker. I have the Harbeths within 1/8th of an inch of the old stands.
Your old one post wooden stand allowed more of the bass to be directed away from the listener. The 4 post stand presents a lot of surface under the woofer, almost like an extended baffle, and directs more of the bass energy toward the listener.
________
"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
because it truly was the sweetspot for my Partington stands.
2/3 full with a mix of 2/3 kitty litter and 1/3 steel chippings (I guess any other heavy, dense substance would also do). With any other combination, and I do mean ANY, the stands gave off an audible signature: dullness with too much kitty litter and leanness/brightness with too much steel. My conclusion was that the golden ratio really does make sense in this particular area of tweaking. Try it :)
I'm surprised you didn't find much, tons written all over about it--here, Harbeth users forum, Positive Feedback, etc..
Anyway, you've got a great speaker, and great stands. Noel has been using kitty litter for a while now, also rice at times. When I got my 7's I tried sand, which deadend them horribly, hated it. Then went to kitty litter, full up, then to rice, then moved on to poly pellets, which I like the best--obtained at Hobby Lobby or Michaels.
Some say open metal are best, yet I know people who have heard the expensive Sound Anchors and hated them. So I guess it's every man for himself. Some are using wood again, Harbeth used to market their own years ago, the U.S. Harbeth distributor is also selling a wood stand.
But for the money, I think the Skylans are great. Great visual appeal, easy to fill, and level. And Noel's a great guy, which makes it doubly easy to support.
Take care and enjoy!
They are easier to take out to the gar(b)age when empty.
Seriously, even filled with sand they made my Dali RS3 sound muddy and flat. Maybe filling the plastic stands with concrete would be OK, but regular steel stands are much preferred.
Happy listening.
Regards,
JerryS
I had exactly the same experience with my C7s... muddy bass. I switched to heavier (and more costly) Sound Anchors.
I've been listening off and on all day, the Skylans took the Harbeths another notch up in my opinion. The bass improved and the soundstage is wall to wall. NOTHING flat or dull about them. They are simply stunning right now....they completly disappear and let the music come through.
I'm not being a homer, I try to be objective when listening. And I have bought plenty of stuff that did not improve the sound or made it worse. Sorry they didn't work for your Dilly's but they do work well with the Harbeths.
Not much of anything in audio, especially tweaks (like vibration/resonance control), will ever meet with anything like universal acceptance. That said, I have never known my Skylan stands to "brighten" things up like my steel stands do. To my ears, these stands seem to about the enhancement of bass power and midrange bloom - especially if filled halfway up with kitty litter.
When I have to turn the REL DOWN 3 clicks to get my sound balanced again, and sit up till 1AM listening to the glorious midrange 2 nights in a row, the improvements are not imagined.
The stands just do a great job of letting the speakers work their best without any outside influences.
Appreciate the positive post genungo!
That helps a lot! I did purchase them used.
I use aquarium sand. It doesn't contain any moisture or lead.
don't fill any stand with anything.
turns out they arrived filled about 1/2 way with kitty litter, the stands mellowed out the speakers taking away some high treble energy that was bugging me a bit, and I had to adjust the sub a bit due to too much bass now. I'm very pleased with them so far. Not sure if I'll do anything with the kitty litter or not.
I take it you bought used, since Noel ships them unassembled. He redommends kitty litter and starting with half full. You could put more in them if you wanted more weight under the speakers, but the sound is unlikely to change.
________
"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
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