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I just bought a beautiful pair of recent vintage Thiel CS 3.6s and I'm pretty "psyched"! Anyway, I write to inquire about power amps. I know these run about 2 Ohms impedance and require high power, high current solid state amps to perform at their best, at least according to Stereophile's reviewer.
I have an old Hafler DH 220 and an ARC VT-100 tube amp presently. Would one of these be better than the other for getting started listening to the Thiels?
Regarding solid state amps, I'm considering Levinson, Pass Labs, Belles and Halcro. Any opinions or experiences with power amps and these speakers would be welcome.
Thanks,
George
Follow Ups:
if your sticking w/ your arc vt 100 w/ the thiel 3.6 might as well try the zero transformer [speaker impedance multiplying trans former]made by paul speltz. check the guys web page . i heard that persons who owns arc ref 110 drives the big apogee's , magnepan 3.3's with out any problems.hope this helps
Many thanks to those who responded...much appreciated! I would like to ask a couple of follow-up questions.
I am uncertain what specifications to look for in researching "high power, high current amps". I know one thing to look for is that as impedance drops, watts/ch ought to rise--250 watts for 8 ohms, 500 watts for 4 ohms, 1000 watts for 2 ohms, etc. Is this high power or high current? What specs indicates these things? Reviewers often don't tell how a particular amp will work over a long time driving such low impedance speakers.
Second, I checked the specs of my ARC VT-100 and it is only rated into 8 ohms. Are tube amps generally well suited or ill suited to operate into the 2 ohm load of the CS 3.6?
George
For a while, I drove my Thiel CS3s with an ARC D115. These are the twenty year old equivalents of your CS3.6 and VT100. The combination sounded great, but I let go of the D115 because of the heat generated and the long-term cost of tubes. I replaced it with a solid state ARC 100.2. It doesn't have the enveloping soundstage of the D115, but sounds very good coupled with an ARC LS16 tubed preamp.
The D115 overall gave more of a magical sound, but its bass was looser than the 100.2, and the midrange was a little more "honky". My guess is that the VT100 has a more neutral midrange, and perhaps the newer power supply has faster bass. If not, some fast diodes and improved caps from Great Northern Sound should tighten it up.
I would suspect that your combination would work very well. As for amps: my understanding is that if you want a high amperage amplifier, amps correlate approximately with shipping weight.
I ran a CS 1.6 with an Ayre ax-7e integrated and I felt the two complemented each other beautifully. From this experience, I'd say the house sound of Ayre and Thiel go very well with one another -- both are transparent, quick, holographic and ultimately very smooth.
I've just recently "graduated" from the Thiel "school" after spending 15 years with Thiel speakers, first with a pair of 2.2 then a pair of 3.6. I had played with several amps from Forte, Krell, Levinson, and Pass with these speakers. The most memorable was when I had paired the Pass Aleph Os w/ the 2.2. When I upgraded to the 3.6, I tried the Aleph Os, it could play, but not very loud in the room I had. So I searched on for amps, first with an older model Krell which didn't work out, and ended with a Levinson #333. I thought that was the end of my amp search. The combo sounded good. But then the #333 started having these problems with capacitors blowing up. According to their own technician, it was partly due to a design flaw, and partly due to capacitor not up to standard. On top of it, I had a really bad experience dealing with Harmon trying to get it fixed. After they took my wallet to the cleaners, I got fed up and decided to trade it in for the Pass X350.5. I had heard the X350.5 at a friend's and was pretty impressed.
Well, to keep the story short. The X350.5 was nothing short of impressive. For the last few years, I had been thinking that the Thiel 3.6 was the weakest link in my chain. But the X350.5 brand new out of the box took the 3.6 to another level that I was totally not expecting. With the old Levinson's (and the rest of my system), I've heard comments from other X-thiel-3.6 owners that "they had never heard the 3.6 sounded this good", "best 3.6 setup I've heard", "Wow, we are listening to thiels?". A good friend of mine who had been listening to my setup several times a month came by the week the X350.5 arrived for a listen. He went back and dumped his #432 and bought one the following week.
He was driving a pair of B&W 802s, and now a pair of Dynaudio C4. As for me, I've just bought a pair of Verity Parsifal Encore. Any regrets? Not at all. The Parsifal offers what the Thiel 3.6 offers and much more. By the way, I would recommend pairing the SS amp with a tube preamp.
FrankC
These guys know what they are talking about and I am not sure I can add much. Before you try SS amps, give a chance to ARC. You may be pleasently surprised with that sound. Also ARC may be able to "round off" rough edges of that damm Vifa tweeter (LOL).
As for the room size, Tom Norton suggested that one need the size of the Wimbledon center court for these speakers to sing! So pay attention to speaker placemnet, listening distance and listening height as they are all very critical for the final sound that reach your ears.
Contratulations!
Priya
I have paired my 3.6s with ARC 100.2 SS amp with excellent results. I think that amp is now discontinued. If you can find a one for auditioning, please give this a try. It may not look like a much of an amp from outside, but they can make 3.6s sing.
Priya
...everyone's listening preferences are a little different.
Personally, I have preferred tubed amps with my Thiel 7s and 7.2s.
The best solid state amp I tried was a Pass Labs, but I went back to tubes.
A friend has Thiel 2.4s and uses a tubed MC275.
HCA-2 and the newer GC series. They will drive them with ease and authority, and sound sweet and punchy while doing it. Not as resolving as some of the more pricey amps, but I and others thought it was a very fine sounding match. The Odyssey amps are also a good choice.
You raise the right issues in your post. You need high current, highly stable amp that can handle 2 ohm loads. Although, I heard a pair of 3.6s driven by a low watt Cary set amp and it sounded very good. A good tube amp is a great alternative. Something by ARC would match well, as long as it had good wattage. A tube amp might give you a more pleasant, warmer sound that would offset the brutally honest sound of these speakers. I have had Thiels in my system and they are not forgiving speakers, especially if you have subpar components up stream or a bad recording.
All the manufaturers you mentioned will be good choices. Not sure there would be major differences among them, except for huge price range. Personally, I would go with a Pass Labs with minimum of 100 watts. Easy to find used and Nelson Pass is hands down one of the best SS amp designers in the world. And that means a high current, class A amp. Each of these manufacturers builds mostly class A amps.
The bigger questions are dimension of room, what kind of music do you listen to and spacing from each other, front and side wall. These speakers should be at least 9 or 10 feet apart, with a minimum of four feet from front wall and at least two feet from the sides, if not more. Listening position should be about 10 feet from the plane of the speaker. These are big speakers that need a big room. If you have all that, then I would go for the Pass Labs X-300.5 or larger. New or used, it is a great amp and a decent room heater in the winter. The X-600.5 monoblocks might be an option, if you really want to raise the roof. The Thiels can take it.
Hope this has been helpful.
Cheers,
Al
There's someone in my head and it's not me.
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