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controversial speaker. i listen to blues, and classical, orchestrial, and worried that will get congested. does it? is it fatiging over time?thx
Follow Ups:
Not fatiguing provided that the software is not.
One of the main determiners of how this unit will sound over time is not the speaker but the amplification on the active side and the pre-amp. Too often the design that requires the use of multiple amplifiers has the owner "saving" on the electronics purchases. This approach can be an issue when attached to a fine executed design with relvealing drive units.I've heard the Phoenix in two different configs. One with equal to the task electronics and another with "savings" electronics. The "savings" were noticeable in a bad way.
If you get, don't scrimp on amplification quality/refinement. Buy to the level of the speaker and great performance will be yours.
You won't be disappointed with Siegfried Linkwitz's amplifier recommendation. The ATI amplifiers are excellent quality and very cost-effective.
Agreed the ATI units are not offending, but know that the speakers are more refined than those units. Not that they are bad, but they hold back the full potential and refinement of the whole system.
I auditioned the Orions at the good Doctors house, and suspected the front was holding back the system, and the amp impressed me like an Adcom. Workable, but not the last word in refinement.
"Let me help..."
Then what do you recommend for amplification? How about a preamp to run before the asp?
You're asking advice from someone who has not even heard the speakers in question. It's possible that he's never heard the ATI amp either.You know the old saying about advice - it's worth what you paid for it.
What you don't understand that I am actually giving very high praise to the speaker creations of Dr Linkwitz. I've heard at least four of his creations from both his commercial venture Audio Artistry, through his "free designs" Phoenix and lastly, but briefly his, direct sales units Orions. I've been greatly influenced by his open baffle studies and implementations. I have been building my own designs along the lines, but passive not active, since 1998 based upon a following of his design goals.I've heard a good number of ATI (both ATI and OEM badged ) units. The simple deal is that the Orion is workmanlike with the mulitchannel ATI, but it is not showing its full potential. The issue is a cost one though. To get the multiple amps that the active system requires will greatly increase the cost.
There are several amps that would be better. A full set of Conrad Johnson MV50, Marantz Model 7's, ASL EL34 based (in tube world) or Arye and some NAD amps come to mind. Of course I also feel that the speakers are still not seeing full potential with these, and would wonder how well they would be with a full complement of Thor TA30's or Lamm 1.2's. BUT you're talking about $100,000 in amplification.
But one of the issues of making recommendations on specific models, is that I am of the mind that it is a personal choice. What I might like (Audio Magic Parallel SET) may not suit the tastes of the person asking the question. Hence why I stand by the comment that based upon my experience, the ATI amps are not showing the full potential of the SEAs Mag cone based design implemented by the Dr in the Orion.
Having lived with no fewer than two sets of Orions over nearly three years, I can attest that the thoudsnds of dollars one would spend on exotic amplifiers can be better spent in different areas (i.e. software).SL states this on his website:
" Much has been written about the sound of amplifiers in the Hi-Fi Press. Amplifiers can sound different due to non-linear distortion which generates new spectral components. The typical total harmonic distortion specification is merely a guide post and not a complete measure of amplifier distortion. THD should be below 0.1%, as a starting point, for amplifiers not to sound different from each other. More important is the distortion at low output power levels, below 2 W, where an amplifier spends most of its time during music reproduction, unless it is for Hard Rock. The crossover distortion of Class A/B amplifiers is impulsive in nature. It is very broadband and easily overlooked in the noise floor of the amplifier output spectrum. It registers low in a THD measurement, but the spectral components add in the time domain. They are responsible for much of the "solid-state sound". Class A amplifiers do not suffer from this inherent problem, but a well designed Class A/B can match their performance in practice. Amplifiers can also sound different when their relatively high output impedance, or low damping factor, interacts with the combined loudspeaker and speaker cable load impedance to cause a frequency dependent drive signal at the speaker terminals. This is very much an issue with tube power amplifiers and passive crossover networks. The ORION drivers present a simple load to their amplifiers, which are essentially driving the voice coils directly. No inductors or capacitors are in the signal path. Even tube amplifiers could drive the tweeter and midrange, but the woofer presents too difficult a load to their transformer output. "
If SL recommends a specific amp to use with his speakers, it goes without saying that it wasn't by accident. Also, if the amp was a poor performer or inadequate in some way to power his speakers he simply would not recommend it.
Not certain why you are so abrasive, but possibly as an owner, you are under the assumption that I'm saying the combination is bad.It appears that when it comes to amps you are of the view that there is little difference between most well constructed amps. That is not an opinion I share. It is worth trying others, no matter what the good Dr says.
The good news is that as an owner of the units, you have a world class speaker with a superior design parameter (open baffle) implemented by a world class designer and you appear happy as such. Enjoy the units.
> It appears that when it comes to amps you are of the view that there is little difference between most well constructed amps.That is where you would be wrong. I'm using Hypex UcD based amps with my Orions. I do concede that a Theta Dreadnought II would likely sound better than an ATI amplifier. However, at what cost? The difference between the two amps would be IMO very subtle. OTOH, the cost difference is huge.
The typical argument is that is often made is that going to an active system involves compromising on amplification, and I believe this was your initial point. The fact of the matter is a set of Orions driven by an ATI amplifier will significantly outperform a $5,000 amplifier of your choice paired with a $2,000 set of speakers of your choice.
"The typical argument is that is often made is that going to an active system involves compromising on amplification"I'd only slightly modify this to say
"The typical argument is that is often made is that going to an active system CAN involve compromising on amplification"And you are correct that was my input. I've heard a good number of "home constructor/kit based" and a few commercial actives where sadly this is the case. Does not mean it is a given, just a not to rare possibility.
It is a bit odd that you are giving out grief on the suggestion that the Orions will respond to more refined amps, and yet you don't use the ATI yourself. Out of interest was there a techincial/preference reason you use something other than the ATI or was it more an econimics issue( had amps, or good deal type thing)?
As to the $5000 amp/$2000 speaker issue. That sonic preferences or speakers are so subjective, there is no real way to win or lose that suggestion. For me I might feel that a Cyrus Brenneman Cavilier (el 34 based) connected to a 1964 JBL S7 or S8 to be more to my liking with equal output capabilities and would have couple of thousand left over from the $7000 budget. BUT that would not mean that the Orion/ATI is inferior to everyone, hardly, just different. Hence no way to win or lose that suggestion.
> It is a bit odd that you are giving out grief on the suggestion that the Orions will respond to more refined amps, and yet you don't use the ATI yourself.It's not my intent to give out any grief. I'm simply stating that you aren't really in the position to 1) State that the ATI amplifier is a limiting factor in an Orion system. 2) Recommend specific amps for the Orion. IMO in order for you to do either would require you to OWN a set of Orions and have TRIED THEM with the ATI and the other amps you've recommended. It's just way too easy to dismiss the ATI amplifier to the ones you've recommended w/o having tried it yourself. (Vis a vi my arm-chair critic comment).
I've used a few different amps with my Orions (but not the ATI). I don't use the ATI because I prefer to build my own.
If you're into vintage equipment I'm surprised that you would find any merit with the Orions. They are so diametrically different from the JBL's you mentioned that I find it hard to believe that you could like both. Given this, and what I mentioned above (arm-chair critic) I cannot place any credibility in your amplifier recommendation for the Orion. I would like to believe that others see it that way too.
No amount of talking or explaining has helped me get past your bias and name calling.The thread has turned silly now, and I'll bow out of this now. Enjoy your units.
The Orions are the least fatiguing speakers I have ever owned. Multi-hour sessions usually leave me wishing I could spend even more time listening.
I heartily second this as well.Amp "refinement" doesn't seem to be an issue with the Orions. Competence, yes, refinement, no. The design, drivers, and ASP as so superb that they'd probably sound better than most speakers if driven by late 60s vintage transistor amps.
I settled on four Hafler TA1600 60wpc stereo amps after mixing and matching a half dozen amps to each channel. The Haflers seem to have come off assembly lines with poor QC, so I now wish I'd bought the ATI amp, but for reasons other than sound.
Preamp is passive (250K pot), so I added a buffer/follower before the ASP's inputs to keep the signal from rolling off into the 10K inputs.
You will be flirting with disaster if you put more than 60 watts on each woofer. You're much better off clipping the amp than bottoming the woofers. And unlike a passively-crossed over speaker, if the bass amp clips, the harmonics won't fry your tweeters.
I second that. I've owned mine for the same time and thoroughly enjoy listening. Never a sense of fatigue, only an engaging musical experience and a wish for more.
What amps are you two guys using with your Orions? Siegfried Linkwitz recommends an ATI 12-channel amp, which sells for about $1650. Not peanuts, but inexpensive in the context of the amps usually raved about on these boards.
I am using a Rotel RMB-1048 amp with my Orions. It was about half the price of the ATI but only has 40 watts a channel into 8ohms. In my room it works fine. The only issue I have is with some DVD movie soundtracks the bass channel will sometimes overload for a second. Generally I just use the Linkwitz EQ/XO infrasonic switch to cut off the lowest frequencies and that stops the clipping. As to fatigue, the Orions are absolutely the best speaker I have ever heard and I now find myself listening to music much more than I have in years.
I'm using the ATI 1806 (6x180 watts) and have had excellent results. It is less expensive than the ATI 6012 (12x60 watts) that SL prefers. The two woofers in each speaker are in parallel on one amp. I want the extra power in the bass range and believe the overall distortion is lower with the 1806 since you use a smaller fraction of the total rated amplifier power to achieve the same volume. One does have to be careful not to over-apply the power to avoid damaging the speakers with the 180w capability. However, full concert volume is reached using a fraction of full amplifier output, with no problems. I've noticed that some recordings have extraneous low frequency (sub-sonic) information on them which causes large, inaudible but visible, woofer excersions which in combination with heavy bass passages, could damage the bass drivers. SL has provided a low frequency cut-out in the x-over that can be switched on to eliminate this problem.
I hear it's good, really, really good.
It was designed by Sigfreed Linkwits, the man who, along with Riley, brought the Audio World the Linkwits Riley crossovers!
I think he is a PHD or something to that effect.
I know he is well respected by his Audio Engineering peers, as well as Audiophiles.
I have heard a speaker he designed, the Audio Art Beetoven, and it was stunning.
Word is, the Orion may even be better.
Controversial? I don't think so. To answer your questions - no, they don’t get congested and they are not fatiguing to listen to. However, if the majority of your music is very poorly recorded you might want to consider a less revealing speaker.
Also, if you are used to tubes and a softer sound, any move away from that will sound harsh to you.
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