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be gentle.
I'm thinking about going high efficiency/low power for speakers and amp. I have a cheapskate budget, maybe 1K for a pair of speakers and less than that for a power amp (can run off another preamp/amp). The speaks would be about 95db @ 8ohm @ 1 watt. Is the amp with link below worth the money? Reasons one way or the other? I understand I would have to buy the tubes separately. The room is 19' X 11.5' X 9'.
Thanks in advance.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Follow Ups:
I will just mention that in looking at the photograph of the amplifier build on eBay, the safety ground on the power entry module isn't connected to anything.
Please ensure that you have decent home owner's or renter's insurance if you buy one of these.
Thanks for the tip. Good one!The one I am now looking at is not that one.
I'm back down to SE push pull. I'm used to the sound of EL-34 based amps, Dyna 70, Jolida and this might be a good match for $370, shipped from the US. I know the meters are silly but the look is not bad. Maybe in person it will look cheezmo but ........
Speaks might arrive this time next week. I will drive them with a NAD 356BEE (I know, I know) and see if I even like the speakers, then onward and downward. LOL!
I appreciate your observation. I'm trying not to blow up anything.
Bottlehead Co. and concept is a wonderful idea. At 4WPC, might not be quite enough grunt for 95db @ 1 watt. Then I'm into monoblocks to get up to what I think might be the sweet spot for power (8WPC) and that's waay outta my price range.
Cheers!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Edits: 07/14/17
While I can't comment specifically on the Bottlehead option, I can tell you that many 2A3 users pair their amps with 87db sensitive small full range drivers. With your sensitivity, you'd need a giant room or to really enjoy listebing very loudly to run out of headroom with a 2A3.
A sub $500 Chinese-made amp (even w/o tubes) from a seller with 10 negatives and 13 neutrals in the past year????? If you think this is a prudent purchasing decision, I have a bridge connecting Manhattan with a borough to the east. I would offer to sell it to you, but that would violate asylum rules.Seriously, you don't need to spend megabucks to get good SET sound, but you may be shooting too low with your budget. Think used and/or wait until you have more walking around money. There re a few interesting items on AA Trader right now (no relationship with the sellers).
Edits: 07/02/17
har.
What's been your personal purchasing experience with Gemtune?
Ships from USA.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I have no experience with Gemtune, neither purchasing nor listening to their products. What is their return policy? What if you don't like what it sounds like? Are there any independent reviews of the product(s) you are considering? Have you listened to other SET rigs? That way you would have a basis for determining how much your budget is costing you in terms of sound quality once you receive your mail order bride. I am not trying to be nasty, just questioning the approach of web-surfing to find something in your budget, rather than investigating products for sound quality. In SET, the iron quality really does make a difference, and that is where a lot of these low budget amps skimp to hit these price-points. I have built and purchase many SET amps, so have some basis for my concerns with your approach. I don't want you to be disappointed and blame it on the SET typology.
Thanks for your concern.
What would you have me do? Buy SETs until I find one that sounds good enough with the mail order speaker bride?
I live in the bumf*ck with no chance for auditioning.
No worries. There will be plenty of blame to throw around when I screw up.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
We're not too far apart. My suggestion is to look for a high-quality used SET. That will save some dough, and you're close enough to the metropolis to have it refurbished if necessary. What the heck, bring a sick SET over to my house and I'll look at it for free.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
You are SO generous! If I didn't have a medical condition that's affecting my eye sight, I just might do that but unfortunately I'm not getting on the highway any time soon.
Hey, but if I decide to buy a Chinese Crap Amp and it fails, I know just who to mail it to for some TLC.
Just pulling your chain, buddy.
Have a good one and thanks again for the kind offer.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I'm sorry to hear that. All the same, if you buy a nice Japanese/UK/USA amp and it turns into a problem, just PM me. I was a ham operator for nearly 50 years. We're a pretty generous bunch when it comes to things like this. There are other tube-head hams here as well, like Michael Samra. Good luck with your search!
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Who knows, I may take you up on that.
Got an Austin friend who's all into shortwave or whatever one calls it these days. He belongs to N5OAK Oak Hill Amateur Radio Club. An old hi-fi buddy from the olden days.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I just took a look at your profile. If I were you, I'd be telling people I live in a shack outside La Grange, instead of bumf*ck. Have mercy.
I'm in a similar situation, with no chance to audition SETs (or anything else, really).
I think Cpwill's advice of Bottlehead is a good one. Not that I've ever heard one, but they do have a good reputation, and I'd bet their resale value would far exceed a Chinese amp.
If you don't solder, look for a used one, or maybe see what someone here on DIY Tubes Asylum would charge you to build it for you.
Good luck.
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
Yeah, hi-fi wise anyway.
Interesting that you have a JVC 1050 as I do. I prefer the 1010 because of the display. It's been repaired a couple of times since the early '90s(!).
Maybe I'll check out the Bottlehead thingy. What I've seen has looked kinda kludgy but perhaps I'm too sensitive. Yeah, no DIY for this ol' boy. Gotta be plug n' play. I would probably need at least 8WPC for a Tekton so I'll see what they've got and maybe there's a build for such a high powered monster.
Thanks!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I didn't really think you lived in a shack outside La Grange.
Sadly my JVC 1050 died some years ago. I put it away, figuring I'd look inside it someday for any obvious problems. I guess in the meantime I should remove it from my equipment profile. Good to hear that your 1010 and 1050 are still working for you. I was happy with my 1050, and wish I could have afforded to buy ten of them back in 1992.
I'm not in love with Bottlehead looks either. But I'd rather go with an amp of known quality (especially where output transformers are concerned) and plenty of support like the Bottlehead, rather than a sleek looking Chinese amp with (you know what's coming) Chinese wound outputs. Form follows function, and all that.
And as I mentioned in my other post, if the Bottlehead didn't suit me, I'm going to assume it would be a lot easier to sell on the used market.
Good luck with finding what you're after, and stay cool down in La Grange.
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
ZZ came after my time!
I went on the Bottlehead site. Their most powerful(!) amp in 4WPC and I'm not planning on horn loaded speakers at 100db per watt. Or, I could buy two amps and monoblock for 8WPC. Couple of thou. Yay.
Aww, too bad about the 1050. Built like a tank and excellent ergonomically with a remote that makes sense. Still sounds pretty dang good.
Yeah, had a Jolida 302BRC for several years. Nice sounding but eventually was problematic with this and that anomaly that needed attention.
Thanks!
We cool.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
With triodes, the way to power is lower plate resistance and increase plate dissipation. Failing the first, deliver grid current so a positive grid voltage can be delivered.
Too bad you're not close by, would love to show you a few amps...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I always thought the 1050 sounded very dang good, one of the more musical CD players ever to be released, which is why I said I wish I could have bought ten of 'em!
Good luck with your SET search, and please keep us apprised of your results.
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
I have the amp but you will have to look and be patient to find one. It is the Audion Sterling, which is an EL34 based SET. Good quality and good sound and probably can be found used for well under $1k.
Yes, that would be a GREAT deal!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Can you soldier and/or willing to learn. If so, check out Bottlehead kits. They are a known quantity , well reviewed, and well considered by this community. I do not have any of their loudspeaker amps, but have built one of their phono preamps and one of their headphone amps. Even with one's sweat-equity included, they represent good value as far as SQ/$. They have a loyal following and very good Forum. Forum used to be part of AA, but they separated about a decade ago + or -.
Also, use the Asylum to see if any inmates live within a couple-few hours of Bumf*ck. See if anyone would let you listen to their SET systems. I have offered a listen to others in the past. If you find yourself in DC, send me an email.
In a smallish room, if you use it for other things than listening to music then you'd save a lot of space with a pair of vertical columns. That's my reality - I work at my desk in my listening room.
I use Mark Audio Alpair 10M speakers - aluminium cone. Very fine and detailed sound, not harsh and enough bass and treble. Very satisfied. My friend Ale uses them too - I'm the Andy he refers to. I don't use a crossover, just the Alpair 10M.
http://www.bartola.co.uk/valves/2016/05/03/alpair-10m-ft96h-speakers/
My amp is the same as Ale as well - 01A into 4P1L PSE. I use all DHTs now for 8 years.
The 300b amp you are looking at would be a good start. Certainly go 300b and not EL34 or EL84. DHTs do matter - better detail and timbre. The 6SN7 is a decent compromise. If you have a constructor friend he could tweak some of the parts at some point. Not difficult. The circuit is a classic one.
Curious, are you using the drivers in open baffles or in an enclosure? Details?
Closed column 50" high. Infinite baffle.
Thanks for the suggestions but I'm not DIY.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Chinese stuff is usually little more than landfill parked at your house for a while. It may hold you over until something better comes along, or even work well for you forever ( I would like to hear your review If you do buy this ). The price works out to be $400 + $120(shipping) + ~$300(tube set)= ~$850. Which is your stated price range. If you do buy it, consider contacting Joe at Tempoelectric.com; He has some used 300bs available from an estate sale he is handling. I'm a friend of Joe, to be above board about it.
Thanks for the info and advice.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Out of curiosity I looked at some of the photos of the undersides of these Douk amps and I am intrigued. Instead of looking at the 300B amp, maybe the much less expensive EL34 amp might be a possibility. Douk appears to sell it as a kit and as a finished product. There are photos and links at the bottom of the ebay link that Travis provided.
It looks like it would not be too difficult to upgrade the caps and resistors. It appears to have a CLC power supply with a tube rectifier. Presumably the power transformer is big enough to supply sufficient current.
Presumably the output transformers are the real weak point. However they appear to be of a reasonable size compared to the power transformer, even larger than the Edcore GXSE series. If you didn't worry about ruining the look of the amp, upgraded transformers could be installed.
Presuming the design is competent then this EL34 amp might be a decent sounding amp and could be upgraded relatively easily.
ray
Thanks, Ray, but no construction projects for this ol' boy.
Cheers.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
With a notional budget of $2K, I would recommend spending $1,500 on the amp and $500 on a pair of drivers. I would temporarily place the drivers in some home-made open baffles, such as those of the Briggs/JE Lab/MJ Sound variety. Alternatively, a simple back-loaded horn would be a nice idea (perhaps save up for a kit from Hasehiro, or someone similar). Good drivers, cheap baffle = maximum bang for buck.After some time, I might upgrade or change the speaker housings to experiment with something else. Drivers you might like to try are Diatone copies, or something like these L Cao Alinico 8" speakers:
With that in mind, for an amp, you could target quality used items like this Almarro A318B or a Bottlehead Stereomour II integrated 2A3 amp (and find a nice soul to build it for you). This would probably provide very satisfying results very quickly - keeping your interest up and unveiling a path you perhaps had not previously considered.
Bottlehead.
Almarro.
Cheers.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Edits: 06/26/17 06/26/17
Thanks but I have no building skills whatsoever.
The amp suggestions are intriguing and look doable.
I appreciate the suggestions.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Ok, look for a used pair of Decware HDTs what use a modified Fostex driver in a very special designed cabinet. I have a pair now (paid $800 for them) and they are really awesome. For a quality SET you will need at least the price of an Almarro. A good, inexpensive PP triode design would be the PureSound A30, which can be found for under $1K, and sounds quite good.
Thanks, I will look into the PureSound. Good suggestion!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
And don't forget to purchase a spare set of output and power transformers. There have been numerous stories of Chinese amps being scrapped because A) these items failed much sooner than expected and B) replacement parts weren't available. Seriously, you get what you pay for.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Oh stop being an alarmist. I have seen so many dead amps from all countries...especially big American muscle amps. Chinese amps aren't the only ones with QC and design issues.
Good SET amps aren't cheap. They also don't come from China. I'd buy the high efficiency speakers, but pair them with a vintage mid-power push-pull amplifier temporarily. Save your money for a quality SET, then sell the interim amp. Check Bottlehead for something you might like.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Hi Trav, if you think about it. It doesn't make sense to get an amp made in China. Besides the quality issues, of which examples are rampant, if you consider all the effort or energy expended to get an amp to you it doesn't make sense. Probably 99% of the raw materials come from the states. Steel and copper and aluminum all recycled from the usa. Then it was remade into the amp. Now, i have nothing against the people who assembled the amp as they are probably just regular gals and guys like us. But one wonders why such a serious quality problem except for those companies that have taken many steps to have quality control reject units that do not meet specifications. So, where do all the rejects go? They are most likely rebadged or redesigned and sold as an economy model. You ever wonder why the Chinese based companies like Douk and Raphaelite always have new models with different chassis and layouts and transformers, etc. In Chinese culture it is anathema to throw away the seconds and slightly defective, unlike western culture. It makes all the cheap chinese stuff very grey market. Supporting the grey market only makes it easier to continue with their unacceptable behavior.
Thanks for your reply. Good one.
At this point, I don't think I'll be getting a Chinese amp directly from China. I have been looking at Gemtune as they have stock in the USA. It's under $400, 2-day prime free shipping from the Zon so there seems to be some safety net happening.
This purchase, as soon as some equipment of mine is liquidated (need a Sennheiser HD800 or a Woo Audio WA6 made in Brooklyn?, will be a dip of the toe in the low power tube amp world, maybe driving some Tekton Lores. I want to hear this combo in my room but I'll try the speakers first and then if I like them, an amp.
Just stumbled on your AA ad and it was certainly intriguing. I date back to the Fisher 400 receiver (1964) and then the Citation II, Dynaco ST-70, Atma-Sphere MA1 MKII's, Jolida BRC302 (problems every couple of years). I still am an innocent simply because I am not technically astute.
Not sure I'm ready for a home-made power amp (where's my back up?!!!) but your build certainly seems first class and 8WPC just might do it.
I wish you the best with your sale (I'll keep an eye out!)and I appreciate your considered response.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Everything in my amp is made in the USA. Transformers are vintage too. Make me an offer if you are interested, although, i can't go as low as that one you are considering. good luck on your search.
Edits: 07/02/17
Thanks, DAK.
I am interested and would make you a good offer but as I wrote, gotta see if I like the speakers first. Then, onward and upward.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Well, a Puresound A30 sounds better than a lot of the vintage stuff. It may come from China but it is well made fits the bill perfectly for the budget to tide him over until he can buy a good SET.
.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
The amplifier is a bit iffy in my opinion as you still need to buy all of the tubes. So you have to add that to the price which in this amp could almost double the price. Now you're getting into a range where you might be better off with a bigger name brand where you can actually resell it and get something. The NET price should be considered not just the buy price.Also consider the tubes the amplifier uses. Certain tubes are more expensive than others and/or they don't last as long.
An EL84 based amplifier like my OTO are expected to last 8000+ hours. An amp using an 845 output may only last 2000 and the tubes cost 10 times more money so you spend 10 times the money on the tubes and you have to replace them 4 times as often!
300B tubes are also pricey.
I really wouldn't do tube amps on the cheap. I have reviewed a wonderful integrated amplifier for $825 which includes all the tubes. But by the time you add the tubes to your linked amp it could very well be close to the same price.
The amp is called the KingKo KA-101 - I have replaced my Line Magnetic 219IA SET amp and the KingKo KA-101 is doing an admirable job.
It is an El84 based 12 watt push pull amp (a more SET sounding tube type and again long lasting EL84 output tubes). King also provides a 6 month warranty on the tubes. It is also a superb headphone amplifier, has meters for each channel, is full autobias so no volt meters needed to adjust the bias. And you can use it as a dedicate power amp as well if you want to buy a preamp down the line. See the link below. $6500 HKD includes shipping.
The review is not up yet as it is being proof-read.
Now if this is just too expensive and you have a $400 hard limit - you could look at Nobosound tube amps - but make sure it comes with the tubes and they're relatively affordable tubes AND that the customer reviews are positive with reliability and safety. Some of these cheap amps can be dicey.
Just remember it's not a given that just because something is a tube amp it will sound better than SS. I find tubes tend to win at the upper price ranges but not so much in the really budget end ($200-$500). Especially when you set it up with perhaps Tekton and you may be disappointed in the ability to rock and produce solid bass and/or treble.
I just don't think SET is a good idea to do on the cheap. Virtually every major company that makes a good SET - you will see that the cheaper amps are all push pull. SET seems to rely far more on the quality of parts where the output transformer alone costs double the retail price of your linked amp (and maybe my linked amp).And while I can be a SET zealot as much as anyone - you have to consider real world results and budgets. The King offers all day enjoyable sound and while it is a push pull amp and is inherently weaker in design in that sense it is also EL84 which is still rather good.
Edits: 06/25/17
Well written!
The new amp you describe looks like a real winner. It appears the web site is not quite up and running for sales yet.
I may dip my toe in the Nobsound dealy just to see if I like anything about this combination. My first of many tube amps was the Fisher 400 receiver (EL84's?, I don't remember) in about 1964. Beautiful in every way.
The reason I brought up SET is that there is always so much hi-fi chatter about it that I thought maybe it was finally time to investigate. To do it right may not be an option given the budget.
Thank you very much for your sage advice.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Unfortunately - you would have to e-mail King to order anything. He's new to this online sales world. I did tell him to try and get his site up and running but he is basically a one man operation. So on the one hand you get a superior product for less than half the price of virtually anything else (because his costs are minimal) but on the other hand the consumer takes more risk buying from a one man operation and over the net. So it's one of those risk reward deals.
For me I live in Hong Kong and I can drop by his shop. So it's in a sense far easier for me to buy in.
Several forumers have taken the leap of faith on the KingKo and their comments are on the linked Forum.
I come from the age where I like to hear everything before I buy. And as a reviewer I was able to do that. I am not generally a risk taker on audio. So the best advice is to be patient. There are ton of tube amps out there and buying a second hand amp can also afford many benefits. Most $2k amps that were new can be found now for $500-$800 as well. And chances are if you buy one of the used ones - the depreciation is already done. In other words if it is now $600 second hand then chances are in three years it will still be $600 so you don't really lose anything on them.
Great info and lots to think about. Thanks once again.
The forum was an interesting read coupled with the video to watch.
Wow!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Can't speak for the amp you've mentioned, but with a 1K budget, a good speaker choice would be the Tekton Lore. Claimed 98 db efficient and somewhat full range. There are a few versions available I believe. The M-Lore may fit as well. Not quite as efficient, but about $300 cheaper.
Exactly what I was thinking. Now I just need to know if this amp or something like it might work with that speaker.
Thanks for the kind response.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
The suggestions mentioned above in regard to looking at high value P-P or SEP amps are quite valid. This is a far more realistic approach on a tight budget. That said, I'd still stick with one of the Tekton's for your baseline speaker choice. FWIW, I have a friend with Lores who uses a very inexpensive 3.5 watt Miniwatt amp in a secondary system. Limited power and only one input, but the sound is respectable. Uses EL 84 output tubes.
Thanks, Mick. I've read that 8-12 push pull watts per channel can get the Lores' attention pretty easily. 3.5 sounds a little tight to me.
Good input, appreciate it.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
A couple years back I had M-Lores and a Bob Latino ST-70. That was a superb combination with plenty of headroom. Either the Lore or M-Lore give you a lot of flexibility in amplifier choices.
Thanks, love to read about folks real experiences.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I've had a pair of Lores for about a year and a half now. Unbelievably good speakers for the money. When I bought them I'd just purchased a house and didn't have the pile of money available that I thought I'd have to spend to get speakers I'd be happy with. Took a chance on the Lores, figuring they'd hold me over for a while until I could get some "better" speakers. Well, I have the money now, but still have the Lores and have no desire to replace them. I tweaked out the crossovers (same component values, just higher quality parts), replaced the wiring with Neotech PCOCC copper, and put in some Cardas binding posts. The few minor quibbles I had went away with those mods and took the performance up several more notches. The speakers were just fine in stock form, but I can never leave well enough alone. :) I'm driving them with 20 watts (Art Jota using KR 300BXLS tubes), and they'll play stupid loud with no signs I'm sucking the Jota dry. If you decide to get a pair, just be aware that they sound supremely and incredibly nasty right out of the box. The treble will rip your ears to shreds, there's no bass, and the midrange sounds like an AM transistor radio. Really. 20 hours with some decent volume and the nasties go away, and after about 50 hours they start to open up and get in the groove. Took mine probably around 200 hours to fully settle in.
Factory Crossover:
Modded crossovers outside the box:
Modded crossover inside the box:
Thanks for the feedback! Love it when actual owners chime in.
No DIY for me.
Also, thanks for the heads up on break in. I don't want to get discouraged.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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