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In Reply to: RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg?? posted by drlowmu on March 05, 2017 at 15:12:15
Alright, So some of you know of my experimental GM70 Amplifier breadbord
3 specific areas I changed wiring
RK cathode wiring
RC coupling wiring
LC coupling wiring (output cap to output transformer)
I did this, one area at a time, The wire I replaced is Mil spec teflon insulated wire like jeff uses but smaller 14 awg that i doubled up, The new wire is 21 awg doubled up but SOLID core! its a copper wire with direct 24K gold plating, Insulation is unbleached cotton shoestring like.
Dynamics:
Dynamically there is a slight edge to the SOLID CORE smaller wire
Intelligibility:
There is a good amount of difference here giving the edge again to the SOLID CORE, Its just simply clearer, more realistic with proper diction(less audible distortion!) of voices, This clearer information is what I believe also gives a sense of more dynamic contrasting, but NOT forced dynamic contrasting, its clearly more dynamic and tauter bottom end but with less distortion. IMO it sounds wonderful, every spot I have used it so far.
There is quite a bit of difference here that could be for the simple fact that the solid core wire is NOT teflon coated and put into an unbleached cotton shoestring cord its free to move about.
It also just could be that the gold plated wire is better then my Mil Spec wire that I have but its possible other Mil Spec wire could be better.
Lawrence
Follow Ups:
I would add-- don't confuse gold-plated with silver/gold alloy metal.
That's two very different things.
-Dennis-
Wire, like everything else, is use-specific as regards whether
it is best for a given situation, bandwidth requirement, pulsed
conditions and length.
I use combinations of all kinds of wires, some solid, some
multistrand, as required by the application.
I use bare wire whenever I can. Perhaps one of the best
tech improvements in wire for audio came about when Siltech
(others now do it also) began adding a tiny amount of gold
to their silver base metal. Silver is a better conductor, but
gold can fill-in tiny voids in silver's matrix, making the
composite a better conductor yet. With metals this good, one
can obsolete the "solid VS Multistrand" contest.
Either can do the same thing. How is that done? The silver
won't tarnish with the gold in it, so multistrand becomes
just like a solid conductor.
Advantage-- if any? Multistrand has less of a tendency to
"tune"-- according to length and diameter. Music is wideband
(relatively-- it's not R.F.!)-- so a wire that has a full
musical presentation is what people will pay for.
There is an argument that all this is silly-- any good wire
can easily pass music's total bandwidth, so why buy better wire?
It's because that bandwidth encompasses many different
bandwidths, all happening both at once, and in different
time references simultaneously. What is desired is a wire
that doesn't delay musical transient "A" while trying to
pass musical transient "B" at the same time, and at different
times. This is a dynamic energies in motion problem, not
one of fixed, calculable values.
It's just like everything else, use what works for your
application.
-Dennis-
Even though the signal in the wire of an audio amplifier is made up of many different signals, they have been mixed together and have become one composite signal.
At any given moment the amplitude of that signal is singular.
You said,
"It's because that bandwidth encompasses many different
bandwidths, all happening both at once, and in different
time references simultaneously."
That is not true in any way. There is only one signal. There is no "both".
You said,
"a wire delaying musical transient "A" while trying to
pass musical transient "B" at the same time"
There is only one transient at a time. At any single point in time there is only one signal amplitude. Not two.
There is only one signal (per channel). Period!
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Wasting your breath. The post above yours is simply garbage, words strung together in a semi-cogent fashion with no tangible or authentic conceptual meaning. It's the same nonsensical format used to explain the supposed inferiority of an aluminum chassis or NOS tubes. Pure junk, and no reader should ever be tempted to take it for anything other than what it is.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Thanks for sharing.
I have been told by Mr. Dennis Fraker, to cut down the mass / size of my Mil Spec wire dramatically, so as to "retain the highs."
About a week ago, I bought some 1600 feet of the Mil Spec wire in smaller gauges than the 12 and 14 I have used, ( sometimes even doubled up ). I bought a lot of 16 AWG and some 18 AWG, with a goal of retaining the highs, using single runs always, of smaller size wire.
I can send you some to play with, be my pleasure, plus we will both learn new things. That I was " over-wired", was told to me very plainly by DF last month.
He works hard to retain the highs in his SET amp, like no one else I know in audio, - harpsichords, etc, and he gets it. I never did, but will make changes he suggested to me - next month with the 2A3 JJ monoblocks' build.
Jeff
As my late friend Allen Wright used to say "thin wins", that applies to foil and wire diameter. He wired all his amps and preamps with lacquer coated thin pure silver foil strips or lacquer coated (not sure what the lacquer actually was though) pure silver wire of fine gauge (24 or finer I think).
"I have been told by Mr. Dennis Fraker, to cut down the mass / size of my Mil Spec wire dramatically, so as to "retain the highs." "
Life must be tough for a True Believer. For years you have to promote the cause of thick wires, triple runs, and all that. And then suddenly a new edict comes down from on high, and now "thin is good."
For line level signals where not much current needs to flow thin solid core wires and/or foils are superior from both theory and practice. A simple twisted pair or two foils put as close together as possible sounds killer.
Each wire application is different-- as always.Too large doesn't work as well on "highs"-- as always, and too
small can leave-out a lot of musical dynamics, and can, under
certain pulsed conditions, cheat "lows" out of enough current--
as always.The RIGHT SIZE, the right materials, and the right
configurations, lengths, and correct wire placements
and not allowing any wire to touch, or be near anything
else is what works best-- as always.There's a right way to do something the best that it can be done--
as always.-Dennis-
Edits: 03/08/17
DF/TW,
I thought you wired up your amplifiers with Siltech 13 ga. wire for everything.
Are you doing something different or just advising different ga. wires for budget builds?
Should I assume that the best wire is needed to get extended HF bandwidth with that 7B4 driver tube you are using?
dt 667
Great questions/ideas.That old Siltech was LS-38, and some more modern variants.
This wire annihilated the solid VS multistrand headache that
has plagued builders for over a Century.Totally laid waste to it, and a bunch of other pet theories too...
Using solid wires? Then, accept notchy bandwidth anomalies---
solid wire tunes according to length and diameter. Works
fine in a Radio.... not so much in High Fidelity. Don't forget
"skin-effect"-- it's very real, and more prevalent as wire
diameter increases. Solid wire is very coherent, but alas!
It, alone is only one tool of many, it's not High Fidelity.Multistrand? Copper oxidizes, giving us diode-like effects...
Strands rub together, giving us less coherency and a more
mushy, bloated, gutless sound. Use silver? Silver tarnishes.
Fortunately, silver tarnish has nowhere near the horrible
effects of oxidized copper-- so it isn't AS bad...Enter George Cardas, the man who tames copper multistrand.
George has his own metals refining in California. Cardas Litz
has individual strands that can't rub together-- they're
coated with a dielectric. Want to hear copper perform?Siltech added some Gold to their silver metallurgy-- an
amalgam was the result. Solder is also an amalgam.Their silver/gold metal does not tarnish, so has no diode-
effects. Sounds just like a solid wire in that you have no
non-coherent side-effects from using it. It is Multistrand,
of course. And no, nothing outperforms it-- solid or
multistrand.In Siltech's case, multistrand outperforms solid. How? It has a
far more linear bandwidth. So, as long as the side-effects
problem is solved, you have something that outperforms ALL
solid wire. This was due to very careful metallurgical
engineering, and careful Silicone, Kapton, or perhaps
Teflon jacketing.We also have Cardas solid silver-- which is a very good
short-length hookup wire for small signals-- I often
parallel this or triple it, and gain more overall
linerarity and "punch". We have AGSS from Kimber. It has
a very slight "golden" sheen... Hmmmm-m? Alright, then...
Silver Sonic continues to advance, and other silver
wire people are catching up.All of this wire development is a huge advantage to
builders. Now, we can find near Siltech performance
from other vendors... which is already lowering costs.In the old days, I used the heavy Siltech multistrand
silver/gold for nearly everything. The difference over
anything else was very obvious-- you HAD to use it.The largest improvement of all came to me while I had a
JBL Paragon. (83-88 db). The Paragon had over
80 feet of 14ga. silver wire in it from the factory. This
special wire was carbon-granule baked, and then
jacketed. I was using high-power tube amps to drive the
Paragon. My 2A3 amps sounded wonderful on this monster,
but couldn't get it to full power and glory-- I
love marching bands, and a good Rock Band as well as
other music.I re-wired the whole thing with Siltech LS-38.
This was doubled-up for the crossover inputs from the
amplifiers, (there are 4 crossovers) and for crossover
outputs into the 15" woofers.The system was listened to-- the small 2A3 amps now easily
had more power than the Paragon needed-- through THIS wire!!
For any listening level that one could physically stand.
Clean, clear, super dynamic and wideband. Awesome.Next, I "blueprinted" both the midrange drivers and the
tweeters.... I went through several voice-coils until I got
perfect fitting all around. The short wires inside the
driver cups were replaced with Siltech LS-38. This garnered
more improvements than the voice-coil fitting alone did!
Together? NOW, we were talking!!The JBL Paragon became an indispensable engineering tool.
It could reproduce every part of music with great transparency
power and dynamics. The Integrator-panel across its front
(see JBL Heritage) allowed far better see-through into
recording venues, and inside acoustical instruments than
most anything, yet transparency and bandwidth rivaled the
best headsets. It delivered something headsets can't
do-- it placed the venue into your room. It didn't merely
"take you there", it took the venue TO YOU.The JBL Paragon became the ultimate design tool for amps,
and everything else in a good audio system.Of course, it became obvious that amplifiers require the
same quality wiring, and require different wire-fitting in
different parts of an amplifier. Today, several brands and
designs of wiring are used as wire advances continue..What you use is up to you-- and it must be.
This is only a Hobby-- you can play at any level you like.
Don't let anybody fool you, or play around with your mind,
or waste your time trying to "prove" clinically-provable
assumptions with charts, graphs, etc., unless you NEED and
can APPLY the data usefully. Personally, I read most of it,
and sometimes learn something genuinely useful from it.Just remember one thing: it's all about performance in the
real world-- does it make you want to get up and dance, or
will it just play impressively until you sooner or later--
tire of it?The better the ingredients, the better the Pie. The better
the Baker, also the better the Pie, and you get satisfaction!.-Dennis-
Edits: 03/09/17 03/09/17
DF/TW,
Got any opinions on the mil spec silver plated copper stranded PTFE wires?
I got some from APEX Jr. 12 ga. but have not used it as amp hookup wire just from passive crossover to altec horns .
Would a lighter ga. of the mil spec be ok for amp wirings or is it too budget minded to perform well?
Trying to go full range with one amp and speaker like your SS system is probably one of the biggest challenges in this hobby.
Looks like you have mastered that problem.
dt 667
Be careful when using Mil-Spec.This wire is designed to enhance power transfer
efficiency in aircraft and other places.It is very superior to ordinary copper hookup wire,
and can be a bargain cost-wise, but it does have its
limitations-- it wasn't designed for High Fidelity.With that said, twisting 2 or 3 12ga. leads together
(for each leg, leave each polarity separated) can really drive
a speaker well. 12ga. is also good for internal
grounding systems in amps and preamps.The lighter gauges can't compete with super-expensive,
audio-engineered stuff-- but what the heck-- in a budget
system, it could outperform any cheap copper in spades.Would it outperform GOOD copper, such as Cardas?
That's very doubtful, but it can be tried in certain
applications-- see what happens-- why not?One thing is sure-- it's in mass production, and would
cost a lot more if it wasn't paid for out of industrial
and military money.I would say experiment with it, what have you to lose?
-Dennis-
Edits: 03/10/17
DF/TW,
The cardas litz wire seems OK for my budget.
Looks like well engineered hookup wires.
I don't have the solder pot needed to tin the wires properly.
Apparently this is a must have.
Thanks for the info.
dt 667
Hey Dennis thanks for taking your time to pst your thoughts, to be honest I am NOT much of a silver guy but I believe if used sparingly, and in the right spot I could work
Now I really am lliking this wire I am experimenting with is consisted a copper core, silver plated then gold plated over that , its very small awg but many strands in very old unbleached cotton shoestring insulation top to bottom is very good, Now I want my music I listen too to have real musical merit like what we hear in a good live unamplified venu meaning good clear vocal with proper structure and sounds.
Now silver is a bright sounding conductor or very dull sounding and can hilight our music and even sound exciting but after awhile you tire from this exaggeration plus there is losses in tone,tonal structure and realizem.
so far the thin copper silver gold wire is beating up all the others
Lawrence
You have a computer with a sound interface. There is some decent FFT software available free on line.
Why not show us these differences between wires? If silver wire boosts the high end enough to hear it, surely that can easily be measured.
When is somebody going to show us a repeatable test of 12wag versus thin silver wire in a tube amp input circuit?
If this is so audible, why can nobody measure it?
This is the Second time I am going to ask you NON believers to please leave this thread as only subjective, Now if you want to GO AND START YOUR OWN THREAD HOW ALL OF US SUBJECTIVE PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE GO RIGHT AHEAD LEAVE MY THREAD ALONE START YOUR OWN THREAD ALREADY!!
"Now if you want to GO AND START YOUR OWN THREAD HOW ALL OF US SUBJECTIVE PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE GO RIGHT AHEAD LEAVE MY THREAD ALONE START YOUR OWN THREAD ALREADY!!"
Sorry, but how were people supposed to know that a thread where you said you had some new results on the comparison between heavy awg and small awg wire was intended to be exclusively about subjective impressions and not actual physics and measurements?
There is a tweaks forum to discuss these ideas. This is supposed to be a practical construction forum.A novice coming in here to build a project does not need to be burdened with these unproven expensive tweaks.
But I will cease posting here, what the point?
Edits: 03/10/17
A practical construction forum is one where
people are free to build what they want and need,
are free to ask any questions they like about it--
FROM ANYONE, and are free-- without intimidation--
to get those questions answered by ANYONE
that THEY choose to listen to.In a true practical construction forum, good people
with common sense are able to glean what they wish to
apply-- and are able to reject what they do not-- from
any or all of the postings, without any enforced rulings
from "experts" who flame-out every time they see something
that they think might not conform to their charts and graphs.WHY someone might not wish to obey them is not considered
at all.Of course, they only want to "save you from yourself"--
they don't allow for your freedom to chart your own way
because you might make a mistake by listening to somebody
that doesn't think like them-- you might not obey
the dictations that they had deemed necessary for you....,
and that would be BAD PUPPY~!Here are some insightful, inspiring words-- direct
quotes from Mr. Nikola Tesla:"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
experiments, and they wander off through equation
after equation, and eventually build a structure which
has no relation to reality"."Energy, Frequency, Vibration".
"Intuition counts, not the brain".
I believe that Mr. Tesla knew that his
intuitive information came from the Cosmos,
what would we call it-- perhaps Universal Energy,
perhaps he got it from God.There are certainties: (1) It worked. (2) He
said it DID NOT come from his brain. He also
mused that he applied those ideas by designing
a complete machine in his conscious thought, not
with mathematics, not from the brain or from anything
proven, not from charts, graphs, or from anything else..He BUILT THE MACHINE FIRST. All of the proof was
in the thing he had built.This is also how I design my own equipment-- the only
proof needed is in the equipment itself.-Dennis-
Edits: 03/10/17 03/10/17 03/10/17
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Not the TubeDIY forum. Not really sure what the purpose of this forum is these days, but DIY stuff should be on TubeDIY
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
The basic premise of one poster's suggestion that we use 12 AWG on the input lead, RCA jack to a driver's grid, is 100% incorrect.One will not see anything like that posted here ever !! I typically may use two runs of about 19 to 22 AWG silver there, solid silver, sometimes bare. A span usually two inches long.
Here follows is a quote, sent by Mr. Dennis Fraker to me privately today, from Nikola Tesla :
"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments,
and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually
build a structure which has no relation to reality".I would really like to know if some people posting here, on the SET Forum, have ever actually heard a SET amplifier ???
Have fun, I do !!
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 03/10/17 03/10/17
'Cherry picking' to support your lack of knowledge and application of physics.
Look at what he said about Edison:
Many Thanks for the URL.
TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS:
What men are really fighting over is Turf--
or, to state it simply: resources-- energy,
power.
Political Power
(in this case, forum-induced electrical/political correctness)
is useless for producing what you want-- it is only useful for
TAKING what people think they want... away from others.
This is our dilemma: new ideas are always
opposed by those who are protecting their Turf.
We don't need or want that-- it's only cheap
politics as usual.
What we need is a new (old?) form of power that
can be used to eliminate the "need" for Turf Battles
(and war!)-- we need a free energy source- BADLY.
There are some good minds who post on these forums.
Yes, sometimes a little calculation will save time--
the controverse is ALSO true-- calculations that produce
working models that aren't quite right are also wastes
of time.
WHERE is your FREE ENERGY source? THIS is what you
should be arguing over!
"A Man With No Imagination Is A Prisoner. Trapped
In His Own Narrow Mind".
-Dennis-
Dennis, I think you have just explained some of the these goings on - on both sides.
Some of us are caught in the middle; the actions of both "sides" are destroying the forum.
There is one protagonist on the SET forum who continually inflames battles, frequently posting off-topic promote his views, baiting others to respond.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
The forum cannot be destroyed-- ever-- as long as BOTH
sides can speak freely at all times on anything that
ANY POSTER feels is relevant, not the other way around--When either side tries to limit or stop discussion-- if that
side succeeds, then the forum is destroyed.Whenever a public forum becomes a dictatorship (by one side)
or a democracy (mob rule led by an agent/s), it IS destroyed.The only way a public forum can be destroyed is--
either thru one-side rule (dictatorship), or thru
Mob Rule (democracy). Either or both will destroy a
forum because INDIVIDUAL person input is either controlled
or squelched, or barred. This, of course, renders a
forum useless for new ideas and problem solving.As long as INDIVIDUALS on both sides are able talk/post
freely, all is JUST FINE.This honest operation of a forum isn't especially revered
by those who wish to control it for their own uses.
Intelligent people allow those people to talk freely also--
intelligent people want ZERO suppression of human expression
of ideas, so they tolerate give-and-take.Those who resent this normally constant give-and-take are
trying to use the forum for their own ends only.One can always tell the phonies from the real people.
The phonies are trying to shut someone up.That is a certain sign that they are not on the level..
"I never promised you a bed of roses". --Is The Price of Liberty.
-Dennis-
Edits: 03/12/17 03/12/17
This is an audio forum, with guidelines and I assume some purpose. What you have described guarantees those few with the loudest and most insistent voices, and most willing to ignore the forum guidelines, will prevail. I thought perhaps - as a diverse collective - could achieve more than forum war-mongering and turf warring. My bad.This may be a turf war, but it needn't be. I'm very much for genuine diversity of opinion and healthy debate.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 03/12/17
I'm with you on this-- I too believe in staying on topic,
that is, as long as we don't start suppressing posts/posters
as a sort of "cure" for a problem that doesn't exist
as a genuine problem.
We should also let posters stray from the topic as long as
it doesn't become something bizarre, like advertising
Women's brazziers. Wait a minute-- even that might have some
bearing on something in audio that maybe we could apply--
then, it might not. If it doesn't-- nothing lost--
laugh at it, and go on to the posts you can use.
Most of the posts look very much like signs of
health to me... if we don't leave them alone, we end up
as cheap, totalitarian censors-- which are a penny-a-dozen
all over the world.
These particular forums are unique in that they have so
far stayed in the free speech/expression mode, making them
the most valuable forums on the internet.
That this causes some frictions is exactly what should
be expected and will happen but it is POSITIVE, not negative.
The trick to negotiating such a place is to use the posts
you can use yourself. There are plenty of good ones
posted on both sides, simply pick those out for yourself.
You could censor some posts or posters, but then all you
would have is tons of the same ideas-- worked over and over
until all the members got bored by the same approaches from
the posts they did allow and the forum becomes just
another club just like the millions of others on the
internet.
The intelligence and ingenuity of nearly all of the posters
here is very high. Arguments between members should be
expected, encouraged, and learned from!
-Dennis-
Jeff, I don't need to be convinced of the prevalence of stagnant, misguided "science". As an ex-researcher, still working in a research-related field, I see the limitations of science daily. I also see wild theories, guesses, flawed logic and fallacies, and all manner of biases at play...Both extremes are clearly evident in the AA (not that there is really a duality or two points on a continuum, but I digress).
What really shits me are those claiming their personal opinions as absolute truths on one hand then lecture others on the other for doing exactly same... despite their own truths changing frequently. Unaware... driven by their neediness. Noise. Misleading.
91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein
Edits: 03/10/17
Years and many posts re 'I hear it' and not one verification.
Measurement and analysis now operates at the molecular level.
Given the will to do so, audio systems are a doddle. Most claims re hearing a difference are related to changes that could only be regarded as inaudible.
Psychoacoustics is the area that subjectivists are in denial about. In the absence of verification of their many claims this is where they should be looking. The inconsistency of what they claim to hear, between individuals, could be due to individual mind processing.
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