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I want to buid a SET amp, probably from a kit (the first time, anyway). Can you folks point me toward some kits that won't break the bank?
I've looked at Decware, DIYaudio, the DIY kit guy on ebay (who, they say, pirate's desgns of honest designers) and a couple others.
I like the EL34 kit at the ebay store, but I am aware of the ethical issues about some of his offerings/his business ingeneral. Any comments of this kit (is it, in particular, the fruits of someone else's labor?) or one whether the guy deserves a total boycott?
Or others?
What about the cut-rate Decware kit? Does the use of a printed circuit board flaw an otherwise well-loved design to the point where the savings are outweighed?
I'm open to any and all suggestions here. I have no exper0.iance with SET. The closest I came was a Phillips single ended Pentode amp (which was pretty cool
I'll post on the Tubes/DIY board as well.
Follow Ups:
Two well documented kits, the first one is point-to-point wired, if you're up to it and it comes with all components including trafos and an already punched chassis.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/180897-kt88-se-basic-master-kit.html
With this second kit, you buy the PCB from the designer and source all of the components mostly from Mouser or Digikey. Also, all trafos/chokes for this build can be sourced from Edcor. Maybe a little more leg work but not that big of a deal really.
http://www.tubelab.com/AssemblyManualSimple_SE/StartHere_SSE.html
Tubelab has a forum at diyaudio.com and the members there can be very helpful.
see attached link
david--bottlehead is a excellent choice-first rate intructions and a more than helpful forum-and most important-- the sound --the kits are well designed for a first timer and are tweak-able/upgradable both expensively or non expensively-the choice being yours-all this can be done gradually as you learn more about tube stereo and what you like and don't like--ck out their forum at the bottlehead site
http://www.bottlehead.com/
Nt
I havent any yet. I have some vintage 12" EV 12" woofers and a cheap-o plastic cpmpression horn (from Dave Riddle's cheap-o stuff on ebsy). I am looking at various horns. I kind of like the Moth, too. But nothing yet, save the inchoate EV/riddle "anyone's guess" speaker. I do plan on using a number of speakers, incluing several DIY projects, as opposed to settling in with some particular speaker a semi-permenent system. This is not my main hio fi. I have a pretty good one at home and a not bad one at the office. This one would be a fun, experimental, system, at least for now. Who knows, maybe the LE bug will bite me, though my range of music includes some fairly looud and dynamic Rock, World Music, Pop and full orchestra, along with quieter styles, so I don't see going to a SET system as my main box any time soon. I guess that is a note in favor of the versitile Bottlehead amp.
Your kit choices for directly heated SET amps will basically be ones that use the 300B or 2A3 tube. What sold me on DHT SET was listening to an Audio Note 300B Meishu integrated amp through a pair of Stirling LS3/5As - an 82dB sensitive amp that is however, extremely easy to drive. Even the dealer - although not the mfr. - were amazed at how good the combination sounded.
The 300B is a good place to start. It puts out 8-9W and, as long as you are not too demanding of it, a good 300B amp kit from either Bottlehead or Audio Note kits will sound darn good on a pair of 2-way conventional speakers that are easy to drive and, say, somewhere between 85-90dB sensitive. (The LS3/5A's are a special case, as their load is insanely benign).
Approaching it this way, you may not have to make a big speaker jump in order to enjoy your first taste of DH SET. If you decide you want to go further, then you have the flexibility to move to more sensitive speakers and perhaps lower power tubes DH triodes: 421 - 2A3 - 45.
I myself and doing this in steps, having moved from 300B to 2A3 and contemplating a further move to a 45 amp and more sensitive speakers than my current 90dB sensitive models.
Observe, don't think
I notice that the tubes in the "progression" you describe seem to get more and more odd-looking and exotic as the progression...what? progresses? Which reminds me that there's a site I found, wandering some SET amp site "cycle" late one night, that is run by some fellow in Germany. And he builds the coolest looking SET amps I've ever seen. EVERYTHING is from scratch--he winds his own caps, etc. Beautiful hardwood plinths for the amp chassis, huge, clunky, ancient-looking PIO cap for the PS that look like they came from the Hindenberg or Tesla'a attic. All the iron is hand made by some associate. And the wierdest, most 19th-century-hoist-the-monster-up-the-tower-in-the-electrical-storm-looking tubes you've ever seen. Gauges, knobs, everthing is one-of-a-kind psuedo-gothic horror movie style. His HE speakers are enormous, beautifully-woodworked things that look as though they might have been converted from old (what do you call thise things?--those free-standing furniture closets--aramours? something like that). Of course they hold a 6" Lowther or something like that. God knows what this stuff must cost him. Then again, he is probably wealthy from selling these works of art to well-healed artsy audiophiles. Assuming they sound as good as they look. They MUST. If all that twisted techno-beauty didn't sound incredible, than all would not be right with the universe. It would be wrong indeed. I refuse to believe it doesn't. It really is worth a look. I think I'll try to google-stumble my way back there for another look, now that I thnk of it. I suggest you poke around a little. It's well worth the ogle.
The inexpensive Bottlehead, the S.E.X. comes with 6n7s, I believe, and they say it will work with "similar" tubes. Pretty sure those are octal. And it's rated at 2 watts. I planned to build some high efficiency speakers. I have a couple of old EV 12" speakers. That look the same as some I've seen pulled from and old Klipsch, maybe an early heresy?? And some pretty crappy compression horns. I also wanted to build a horn. We'll see, It my well end up hooked up to the computer through an inexpensive outboard "SUPERpro" d/a converter. Isn't the 300b one of those prehistoric 4-pin jobs? I don't think the S.E.X. contemplates those.
Let me say up front that I am in no way connect to Bottlehead other than being a very satisfied customer...but, the S.E.X. amp is designed exactly for someone like you as an entry level kit. Also, Bottlehead has a forum of very nice people that are more than willing to help with any problems. And if you can't make it work, you can send it back to Doc B and he will make it work.
The other part of the equation of watts and speaker efficiency is room size and your listening taste. Unless you want the chest thumping feeling of being at a rock concert, in a small room with efficient speakers, you should get reasonably loud volume.
I'm listening to a pair of EV SP12Bs in my Klipsch Heresy II cabinets. The first time I did this, I just swapped out the woofers and didn't hear much difference. This time, I by-passed the crossover and wired the SP12B fullrange and connected the tweeter with a 1.5 uf cap. My point is that I think you are going to have a good match with the speaker you have.
I too thought those plastic Klipsch compression horns sounded pretty crappy until I hooked them up to some prehistoric tubes.
My horn is far shittier that that. It's a no-name (I expect Chinese) Dave Riddle (eBay huckster who sells all manner of cheap speakers, etc.-- I don't know how many 2 for 30$ 6.5" Isophon woofers I've bought from him; still trying to figure out what to do with them--seemed a good idea at the time[s]) driver/plastic exponetial that cost about 40$ total. I'm looking at Dayton round waveguides. I'm thinking about gluing a comp. horn driver plate on a Pyle bullet tweeter, and mating it with an 8" Dayton w.g., and using the cheap-o driver (perhaps to be upgraded) with a 12" w.g.for mids (if I need a mid).
I like the idea of running the E.V. full range. I can get a rough idea of the impedance by measuring it with a multimeter, but I've no T/S parameters (and E.V. made a LOT of different speakers that look pretty much like this (the center badge on the magnet structure is gone) so I'll be guessing at box size. (no driver measuring software, yet) I was thinking 3 cf. But maybe the Heresy/Cornwall cabinet demensions would be as good a place to start as any. Though I will probably go narrower and deeper, perhaps slightly taller. But not much, becauseI assume the Klipsches are a "golden ratio" design, so I don't want to stray too far.
Yeah, I'm leaning toward the S.E.X. (as at) least my second SET. I may get a cheaper one first, out of nothing but impatience. and there's a really good-looking small integrated SET amp with an art-deco "30s looking stainless case offerd by something called I.A.G. audio as a kit for $500 that would look great on the computer table. But yeah, I can apparantly keep morphing the S.E.X. into something new and interesting, and that has real appeal.
Can you tell me the demensions of the box in which you have your SP12Bs ? I do not, of course, expect this speaker project to be the low eff. speaker that I'll stay with, to the extent that I'll stay with any. I just want to have something to drive with whatever SET amp(s) I build, and I've already got a lot of the parts I'll need for this monstrosity. I also have a source for fairly inexpensive NOS PIO caps. Thnking of following your advice and running the EV full range. I guess it has a pretty smooth roll-off?. Do you know the c/o frequency you're using ? I'll be using a different HF/MR, with probably different ranges and impedences, so I'dneed a different cap(s). I suppose I'd need a coil, in addition to a second cap, if I were going to go three way (I think we can assume the chinese comp. driver DOES NOT have a smooth roll-off). Come to think of it, a first order xover probably would not do for the mid for just that reason. That is a good argument for going two way. (I apologise for thinking out loud, so to speak)
BTW, a friend of mine gave a pair of Heresies, good at very least for parts and cabinet, to the Catholic Salvage or something before I could get wind of it! I thnk she tossed a decent (for compyter or t.v.) Boston Acustics sub, too.
Regarding earth-shattering volume, I still have my Newform R645s and Mesa Baron to blow back the little bit of hair that I still possess.
Have looked at the Decware Zen Triode kit with lust in my heart... Too many good reviews and I have had first hand experience of just how wonderful the EL84 can be when it's triode connected. The price is right and the only caveat is which EL84 to get for it. Picked up a matched pair of the new Psvanes when they came out (intro price was sweet) and they are as good as the reviews say. The 6922 for the front end is also problematic as there are too many mediocre ones out there. NOS GE as well as the new Genalex 6922 are very good.
I'd go with the Decware. Price is right and you can mod it to your heart's desire!
At that price and with the right speakers it's a pretty good deal.
Victor at VK Music sells Elekit stuff. They have a TU-879 that uses single ended 6L6s (also can use EL34, KT88, 6550...I used 807s with an adapter) and for $600 it's a very nice amp. It has a decent case as well.
Victor also sells Elekit 2A3 and 300b kits. They look nice to me.
I could not find an EL84 on their website.
Cut-Throat
Zen Triode SET stereo tube amplifier board
"SV83 or EL84/6BQ5"
They now offer a Zen kit with a PCB for a couple hundred bucks less. It's claimned to be an "experimenter" kit, as it ahs no case lots of exposed high-currant, etc. Said "not for home use" where dogs and chidren could get at the high currant surfaces. So it'd require (eventually--I live alone, my dogs cannot reach table tops and I am only a child in certain senses of the word) I'd need to plant it in a case, which does not strike me as a big deal. I'm not that impressed by the Decware cases (as opposed to their very nice, fancy, wooden plinthes), but I've hear nothing but good about that amp. And it is as heap as almost anything, with the exception of the DIY store on ebay, with all their issues. But what about the PCB version? Would that appreciably effect the sound quality, as opposed to the original point-to-point (which I think they still ofer as a kit)? If it isn't a big difference, I'd be inclined to go with the cheaper PCB verison. But the Zen was and remains on the short list.
At entry level, which is what we are talking about here, the sonic vices of PC boards are very small potatoes indeed. Much more important IMHO is that it limits your ability to swap components, which can be a lot of quite educational fun. If you don't expect to do much of that, then the PC board is a non-issue.
It's very difficult for a beginner to sort out the relative significance of things like point-to-point, capacitor quality, triodes vs directly heated triodes vs. triode-wired pentodes or beam tetrodes, silver vs. copper wire, NOS vs. new production tubes, etc. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt there's enough consensus even among the most experienced to come up with a ranking - especially because each of us hears differently. You just have to dive in and find out what works for you.
My opinion, YMMV, and all that.
nt
Observe, don't think
No, I wasn't making distintictions like that at this point. Should I be? This would be my first SET;
nt
Remember there is a difference between a single ended amp and a set. SET means the use of a triode tube as the output. Single ended can use tetrodes or pentodes as the output tubes. The classic single ended uses the triode. If you are going inexpensive Bottlehead is very good
Alan
If you wire a power pentode as a triode in SE, you get SET. It's just not DHT (directly heated triode) SET.
But they have kits for both.
Observe, don't think
Must have posted in the wrong portion of the thread?
Bottlehead sells one indirectly-heated triode SET, and two directly-heated triode SET power amps. No pentodes or tetrodes, except for an upcoming guitar amp.
Not that we're not looking at such amps, but nothing outside of the R&D stage.
Audio Note Kits in Montreal may be too expensive for you, but they have a pretty wide range of SE and PP amps.
Observe, don't think
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